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A different take on U-T’s love affair with Norv Turner

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by SD Native WY, Jan 24, 2010.

  1. SD Native WY
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    SD Native WY Well-Known Member

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    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jan/24/different-take-u-ts-love-affair-norv-turner/

    A different take on U-T’s love affair with Norv Turner
    By D Brent Mote

    Sunday, January 24, 2010 at 12:32 a.m.

    The San Diego Union-Tribune’s two sports columnists, Nick Canepa and Tim Sullivan, as well as Chargers beat writer Kevin Acee, have such a bromance going with Norv Turner you wonder if they exchange Valentine’s cards. Fortunately, they back up everything they write with facts, right?

    Well, to quote Mark Twain (or Benjamin Disraeli or Charles Wentworth Dilke, take your pick), “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.” Which means if you crop the statistical picture just right, you can support any position you care to take.

    So, in the spirit of balance, here’s what I think of the “facts”:

    •Turner has more playoff wins than Sid Gillman and George Allen combined.

    Wow. Could that be right? Yes, it is, but it’s also misleading.

    Allen lost a lot of playoff games. It kind of defined who he was. You know, the Marty Schottenheimer of the 1970s. Additionally, there were fewer playoff rounds in the ’60s and ’70s. In some cases, a lot fewer. As in one.

    •Turner has a better winning percentage with the Chargers than Bill Walsh had with the 49ers or Chuck Noll had with the Steelers.

    Walsh coached 10 years with the 49ers, Noll 23 with the Steelers, Turner three so far with the Chargers. This is like comparing apples and applesauce. If you include the time Turner spent in Washington and Oakland, his winning percentage drops significantly, well below the other two men.

    •Turner led the Chargers to a 13-3 record with little or no running game.

    Absolutely true. Trouble is, Turner inherited the second best running game in the league and turned it into the worst. (OK, next to worst.) LaDainian Tomlinson went from a league-best 1,815 yards in 2006 under Schottenheimer to 730 this year, and from an NFL-record 28 touchdowns rushing to 12.

    Turner has stated repeatedly that he has a commitment to running the football. What he hasn’t said is he has a commitment to running the football well. Look, when you take the No. 2 rushing attack and turn it into the 31st, you’re either exaggerating your commitment or you don’t know what you’re doing.

    •The poor running game isn’t Turner’s fault; LT has lost a step.

    Yes, he has. But continually slamming him into the line doesn’t help. He’s not built for that, never was. In fact, any sane person would stop doing it at some point. Or, to quote Albert Einstein, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

    •Turner has the best winning percentage in Chargers history.

    Well, why wouldn’t he? At 14-2, the Chargers were one of the most talented teams in the league when Turner took over and few coaches have been given the keys to a juggernaut like that right off the bat. I could be wrong, but I think a dancing bear could go 8-8 with this team. Which, if you recall, Turner did last year.

    •Unlike Schottenheimer, Turner is cool under pressure.

    I don’t know if “cool” is the right word. “Aloof” or “spaced” might be better, but regardless, it’s worked — until Sunday. Sunday, Turner was anything but cool. Sunday, he was a sputtering basket case. He almost jumped headfirst into a pile for a loose ball at one point.

    •Turner is an offensive genius.

    True, he is. Sometimes. Other times, not so much. Sunday’s loss to the Jets falls into the “not so much” category. I think we need to find out if Turner has a twin brother and if the two like to pull the old twin switcheroo from time to time because the man we see on the sidelines is not always the same guy. He can’t be.

    Look, I wish Norv Turner well. I want him to win a Super Bowl with San Diego. I’m not even sure I want him fired anymore. (Yeah, like that was going to happen.)

    But what I really want is some honest, unvarnished criticism of the guy, so maybe, just maybe, he won’t continue to make the same mistakes year after year and maybe the Chargers will finally win that Super Bowl we all crave.

    And that is a fact.

    D Brent Mote is a long-suffering Chargers fan who lives in Burbank.
  2. BoltzRule
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    BoltzRule Well-Known Member

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    So it's Norv's fault LT is no longer in his prime? 3 of his points are tied to LT in 2006.

    LT is not the same LT as he was in 2006. He's only been that LT for 1 season, so why would anyone expect him to be? He's 2007 season was comparable to his 2005 and 2004 seasons, and in 2008 he had a better ypc than in 2004.

    Also while Turner's years in Washington and Oakland make him look bad (overall record wise) look at what the coaches did after him, no coach has had a better year than Norv's best year there (10 wins in Was, 5 in Oak). I mean even Gibbs and Marty couldn't do it, maybe Shanahan finally will.

    Also I don't care how smart you are no one is perfect, even geniuses make mistakes (look at Belichick).


    The other points I agree. I don't like the better win % than Noll/Walsh thing. They coached a lot longer than Norv has so far, so they had to go through rebuilding or having to transition, while Norv has been lucky to coach pretty much the same core group, and a quality group at that. Now if Norv had 7 years maybe but it's too soon for that.

    He's right if you want to make an argument you can pretty much twist facts into any way you want to support your argument.
  3. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    I'm not writing this in support of Norv. If I took the time, I could change the names stats and teams and it could fit the vast majority of coaches in the NFL. Reading through it reminded me of Gillman and the love, hate relationship he had at times in San Diego.

    The one thing I can't understand is all the HC's that have won the Lombardi and all their ties directly back to San Diego. Chuck Noll, John Madden, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs are all that I can think of right now. Norv will get canned here and go win one with another team. :icon_shrug: :icon_huh:
  4. wrbanwal
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    wrbanwal Well-Known Member

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    he already got canned once. didn't help.

    The one glaring point I will agree on is Turner pattern of running up the middle, or running off a tackle when EVERYBODY knows they are going to.

    :bolt::bolt::bolt:
  5. Aggieman
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    Aggieman I bleed blue and gold

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  6. SD Native WY
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    SD Native WY Well-Known Member

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  7. JUGGERNAUT
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    JUGGERNAUT BoltTalker

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    What do you want the chargers to do? a toss-sweep with LT? I can tell you right now that it won't work. LT is too slow and does not have the balance to cut it up field anymore. Also, the o-line has enough trouble blocking the guys in front of them; do you really think they can consistently pull and block people in space?

    The chargers always ran the ball up the middle with LT. Everyone knew it was coming, but they just couldn't stop it. the difference now is that the interior of the line and LT have not performed well.
  8. HollywoodLeo
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    HollywoodLeo Trevor Phillips Enterprises

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  9. wrbanwal
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    wrbanwal Well-Known Member

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    I want them to stop running it up the middle.

    Why do they keep trying? And why if we have this dynamic offense, is it so damn predictable?

    :bolt::bolt::bolt:
  10. MasterOfPuppets
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    MasterOfPuppets Charger fan since 1979

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    maybe LT was lobying for it? :icon_shrug:

    and will Know soon enough if it was LT slowing down or the Oline not opening holes, I tend to think it's the former since many times I saw a hole open up, LT speeding up only to get tripped at the line
  11. scratchnz
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    scratchnz BoltTalker

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    You are in your own wee dream world if you think our lack of a running game is LT's fault!!!

    Yes he may have lost a step, but he is too classy a player to be the sole cause of a huge drop in numbers like that. Norv was never committed to the running game, he walked away from the power-running schemes that were already in place...he repeatedly ran LT inside on 1st and 10...almost EVERY 1st and 10...I MEAN COME ON! he didn't give LT much of chance did he? What ever happened to passing to set up the run (if the run isn't working)...he didn't even have the nous to pull that off!
  12. scratchnz
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    scratchnz BoltTalker

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    We must be watching different games!

    I admit that LT doesn't hit the gaps with has much power and speed than he did...but the current coaching regime moved away from blocking schemes and a mindset that had been geared for Power-running and tried to become a smart, finese group...it didn't work!

    Plus Norv was amazingly transparent in his playcalling...1st and 10...run up the middle...try a pass once and a while geez!!!!
  13. HollywoodLeo
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    HollywoodLeo Trevor Phillips Enterprises

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    So...you think what Norv's done to the offense is a problem?

    He's seen as much success with his pass happy offense as Marty saw with his run happy offense, regardless of who's to blame for LT's decline.
  14. Sydalish
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    Sydalish Addicted to Sports

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    A different take on U-T’s love affair with Norv

    That's b/c I merged them ;)
  15. BoltzRule
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    BoltzRule Well-Known Member

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    Where did I say the lack of running game was LT's fault? No where in that post did I blame LT for the lack of running game.

    What my post did do is refute the claim that Norv is the reason for LT's decline.

    2007 was similar to 2005 and 2004.
    2008 his ypc was similar to 2004.

    **** people were saying LT was washed up in 2005 and the start of 2006, that was with Marty.

    The problem is after the 2006 season the rest pale in comparison. 2006 was an anomaly, a career year where everything went together (good oline blocking, competition etc.)

    Anyone that expected or thinks that LT would match that or come close to that is clueless.
  16. wrbanwal
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    wrbanwal Well-Known Member

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    I don't think what Norv has done to the offense is a problem.

    My only point was addressing what seems to me is at times is a predictable offense. Especially when they continue to try to run plays that have proven to be ineffective

    :bolt:
  17. HollywoodLeo
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    HollywoodLeo Trevor Phillips Enterprises

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    I was responding to scratchnz

    I don't really disagree with you, but I do feel compelled to point out that Marty was somewhat predictable with his run-run-pass-punt schemes.
  18. Prito James
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    Prito James BoltTalker

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    Beyond the choking kicker and stupid players, the difference between us and other SB teams of recent times in line play. We pass block well, but beyond that we never dominate the LOS on O or D. I argue this years LT with Lo Neal and better run blocking would have had a 1200-1300 yard season. LT's never adapted to life without Lo Neal. And the run blocking and mind set has changed as well. Couple that with injuries and age and we have LT 2009.
  19. BoltzRule
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    BoltzRule Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the Lo Neal of a few years back, but not the Lo Neal now.

    Honestly I think what we need is a guy for short yardage (Buster), VJ and Floyd usually go deep and when Gates is covered we need another guy that can keep drives going and imo Buster could be that guy.

    It may not help our running game but imo it'd improve our passing game and would help sustain drives.
  20. HollywoodLeo
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    HollywoodLeo Trevor Phillips Enterprises

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    Naanee has been a short yardage pass guy.
  21. JUGGERNAUT
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    JUGGERNAUT BoltTalker

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    so you would rather them run a toss sweep? that is even less likely to work. You have to run the ball. up the middle is better than a sweep. 2 yards is better than -2 yards. yes, they need to get better at it. you are kidding yourself if you think they should stop running the ball entirely.
  22. wrbanwal
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    wrbanwal Well-Known Member

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    are you replying to this stuff just to argue?

    My original point was in my opinion (from an armchair coach's view) the one flaw that Norv has is that when we run up the middle we do it to often and with predictability.

    :bolt:

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