Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Ikeman83, Sep 30, 2012.
Time to change everyone out, simple as that
Everyone? No. Cason, YES. Dude was getting beat like a rented mule ALL F'ING NIGHT.
I'd keep all the safeties
Gilchrist: Don't think so
Jammer/Cason: Oh hell nah!
The safeties are fine, and Lynch played well when he was in, but the CB situation is simply abominable. Gilchrist, Jammer, and Cason were all simply atrocious. Jammer might have some merit as a safety or nickle, but Cason just needs to be let go.
Simplest way of putting it. Are we running a heavily zone-based coverage scheme because of the shortcomings of some or all of our CB's? Or are we doing it to enact a sort of "bend-but-don't-break" mentality to the defense?
The sad situation is that what this is really asking is whether our problem is purely the pieces or the plan and pieces? Jammer, at his age and diminished speed, cannot be asked to cover a team's fastest option unless he's allowed to press-up on him and bump the man at the LOS, simple as that. Cason I've been over already, he seems to lack the mental game to properly play zone and he's prone to too many mental lapses in man. Gilchrist... I don't know what to think. He's better with the play in front of him (always thought he was a better fit as a safety), but doesn't have the size to play in anything but off his man because he gets pushed around and washed out in traffic far too much.
Quite frankly we're in a situation right now not unlike where we were with the receiving corps back when McCardell was regressing, Jackson still hadn't found his hands, and we were starting Eric freaking Parker. Problem being... with the free agent turnover next season, we may well not be able to afford to chuck out a 2nd or 3rd round pick for a trade deadline vet CB (and I'm not sure there's one any better out there and available than a guy like Chris Carr who we already signed - and who was suspiciously inactive tonight) like we did in acquiring Chris Chambers. If there's a right guy out there, I'm not opposed to such a move now - problem is that there's not many teams who will view their seasons as "over" to this point who aren't where they're at because of crap secondaries (other than the Chiefs who are in our division).
Quite literally, I'm at the point where I'd start searching the practice squads of other teams for guys who are "steal-worthy". But just a quick browse and even that prospect is bleak.
Cason worse than Cro. Same attitude wrt tackling, but can't cover for ****.
Hopefully in '13 draft, Bolts go with someone different to pick CBs than whoever the hell has been wasting picks on them up till now.
The best CB coming out the draft will most likely be Xavier Rhodes (Florida State Guy). Has unique ability but his problem, is staying healthy.
Then you got guys like Brent Grimes, Dominque Rogers-Cro, Mike Jenkins, Tracy Porter, Cary Williams, and Chris Houston.
Wouldn't mind trading for a Joe Haden or Sean Smith..
But I would keep Gilchrist and Wright obviously..
Joe Haden, unless Cleveland is just completely done with him due to his most recent suspension (doubtful), would cost a 1st-plus to acquire. I'll be perfectly blunt... AJ's not going to pull a Beathard and trade away a 1st round pick. A 2nd or a 3rd maybe, but not a 1st.
Xavier Rhodes is an interesting prospect... highest ceiling of any in the class, but at the same time he's still in need of seasoning (he has some discipline issues as far as sticking to his assignment and not freelancing quite so often; also gets a little more lax in his technique as games go on, coasting on his athletic gifts - all of it is coach-able, but it may take him a season or two before he really hits his pro stride).
I have Rhodes and Bama's Dee Milliner as 1A and 1B in the class right now, depending on whether you have the preference/need for greater overall product (if full potential is reached) or more immediate contribution. Milliner has one of the highest ceilings in this class and still has a solid ceiling. If Brandon Roby from Ohio State declares, I absolutely LOVE his game. His technique is crisp, he's just begun to tap his potential, and he has sick instincts. Carrington Byndom from Texas... great ceiling, decent-not-great floor. I've already touched on Terry Hawthorne from Illinois. If we insist on sticking with a zone scheme, Jordan Poyer from Oregon State becomes a viable option as well (he's a far better fit in a zone-scheme than in man, and I fear he may be overdrafted by a man-coverage team because of gaudy INT stats). And then you've got a guy like Mississippi State's Jonathan Banks who is/will slowly see his stock start to dip a little bit as more popular "flavors of the month" start to get pub from draftniks, but he's still a guy with a very dependable floor who can be non-liability as a Day One starter. Plenty of value in this class.
I think it's obvious by now that marital issues aren't what was wrong with Jammer last year.
I reckon y'all don't really watch whats happening out there. When both safeties are running to the LOS before the snap to show or bring the blitz they'd better get to the QB. There is no zone because they're hedging their bet that they will reach the QB and at that point it's pick your man and run for the CB's.
Not sure how that accounts for all, or even the majority of Cason's errors. He gets beats wherever the safeties are at.
Cason is terrible because he's always looking in the backfield. Regardless of coverage he's lost because he doesn't spend enough time studying the players he's going to be covering.
If you really want to find out what's going on out there, go buy the NFL.com Game Pass which gives you the coach's tape. You won't always be able to tell who's at fault (because you don't know what the call is), but it's usually apparent once you know whether they were in man or zone.
I saw a lot of man coverage last night. Which is fine with me. I had no problem with the overall play of the defense because I expected them to give up a ton of yards and points. And Pagano did his homework and saw the same thing I did... the Saints are best attacked up the middle on blitzes. The edge blitz by the DBs is not effective.
The Saints' center is terrible. You saw that when Liuget pushed him down with one arm on that sack up the middle. It was a thing of beauty.
With a healthy Gaither and Clary gone (if Harris can produce) I agree CB is our weakest spot. Jammer looks okay still at times but Cason is a total and utter flop. It's not just his lack of physicallity, his lack of catch up speed, and weak hitting, it's that when we are in the lead in the 2nd off he tries to jump short routes and gets beat deep and when it's close or we are behind he gives huge cushions for easy first downs. When you are behind or it's close you have to gamble more and risk getting beat, when you're ahead with time being an ally YOU CANNOT GET BEAT DEEP! I think we go for a top pick next year and ride Jammer for 1-2 years, or move Jammer to the nickel and hopefully Wright has earned a spot by then. Can Jammer play safety? You don't need as much out and out speed as you do guile and being able to read the game and he's got good hands and is a good tackler he's just losing a half step a season.
Regardless, Cason flat out got dominated, clowned, pwned, and strait up embarrassed on national television by Marques Colston. Even when he's got tight coverage he has no hope of actually breaking up the pass, he's a little weakling with terrible recognition skills and next to know awareness of where the ball is at any time.
Not to mention he's slow, he plays 10 yards off because he knows he's slow, Pagano knows he's slow, and the receivers who watch him on film know he's slow. I hope Cason is at home crying into his pillow knowing that he won't get re-signed, or even find a team that will take him for much more than the veteran minimum.
BTW I was the only one who called bullshit on Jammer's divorce being his big issue as well. The dude is done.
He's certainly done as a LCB in a non-cover 2 defense.
Jammer plays CB like a safety......... Wait, what???
I almost feel like we need to draft 2 CBs next year. Normally I'd feel absurd saying that, but that position has honestly become a talent black hole for us.
Fine........ as long as someone other than AJ does the picking. He's already shown an inability to properly evaluate talent at that position.
If we only draft O-line and secondary next year, we'll at least have a shot at improving.
Actually, given the nature of our current roster, that's probably the only thing we should be drafting, unless a decent NT prospect magically appears in the later rounds.
If one appeared in the early rounds as a BPA prospect (which effectively means a guy like Lotulelei or Hankins in the 1st, or Jenkins, Short, or Jesse Williams in the 2nd), I'm not opposed to taking the guy. Same would be said for another high-octane, playmaker-type at OLB. Fact remains, if you have a dominant front seven you can get away with having an average-at-best secondary (see Pittsburgh in recent years, Houston presently, and to some degree San Francisco).
Now don't get me wrong, Jonathan Joseph is better than any CB we've got on the roster, but he's also far, far from Revis' level. You field a dominant front seven and all you need at CB are savvy players who understand how the whole machine functions (not just their individual cog) and who are athletic "enough" to not get completely wrecked when properly handicapped for by competent scheming.
I agree with you, but we don't even have an average at best secondary. At best our corners 1-3 are all terribad. When you're talking about signing practice squad players to upgrade your CB play, average shouldn't even be in the discussion.
I'm speaking more to the future (which is the theme of this thread, I thought) as opposed to this season. Look at the Niners... in the year leading up to Harbaugh's arrival their secondary was damn near the liability that ours is. Nate Clements was visibly showing his age. Shawntae Spencer was their #2 and was that "once-flashed-potential-but-now-looks-spent" type. It's about getting the right guys, which sadly some fans (not you, but I've encountered them on every forum I've been to) don't understand that that doesn't mean "studs". Studs are very rarely available unless you draft and develop them yourself or are willing to gut your draft classes for a year or two to acquire (and usually there are still strings attached - be they character, high money demands, injury-prone, etc.). You can certainly say it about Houston (whose secondary was among the worst in the league prior to Wade's arrival).
Now look at the Niners' and Texans' secondaries the very first year of their turnarounds: Guys like Carlos Rogers (good, but never great, and aged his way out of his welcome in Washington at the time), Tarrell Brown (a relative career backup to that point), Chris Culliver (a 3rd round pick rookie), and Tramaine Brock (a 2nd year UDFA from a D3 school) on SF, and Jonathan Joseph (yes, a high priced priority FA of the sort that rarely hits the market but with an injury past, Kareem Jackson (a 2nd year player who was burnt like toast as rookie), Alan Ball (perennial scapegot of the Cowboys' secondary to that point), Brice McCain (an undersized 6th round pick), and Brandon Harris (a much touted 2nd round pick who has actually achieved the least under this new system of anybody in that secondary). Aside from Joseph, there's not anybody you could even remotely argue is all that much "above average" at least in how they were perceived across the league at the time of transition.
Like I said, it's about the "right" players. Maybe that's taking a gamble on a Rogers'-esque vet like Marcus Trufant (who will hit free agency in 2013 and has an injury history), maybe it's Brent Grimes (though he still likely won't come cheap and I'd argue he really hasn't proved a ton other than that he can snag INT's, his ability to truly cover and deny is pretty average from what I've seen), maybe it's adapting the scheme a bit to play to the strengths of the younger players (like Gilchrist, Wright, and Gatson). Really, it's also about targeting the guys in the draft (like Culliver) who have a very firm and relatively higher floor, even if that means sacrificing ceiling (i.e that the guy will likely never be "elite" but he also won't likely ever be a "liability").
Good stuff lbc.
I'd argue that the Chargers have been targeting guys in the draft similar to what you described in your last sentence. They just keep missing. Not sure if it's AJ, or if AJ relies on someone else to scout the CBs, or both, but it's gotta change. Since 2008, we've drafted CB in rounds 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6. And it's difficult to say if even one of them will be average (holding out hope for Wright). But they certainly weren't all boom/bust types of picks. One would hope that some were 'high floor' picks anyway. It's just that the evaluation system for CBs @ the Chargers sucks.
Absolutely, but when speaking about a future roster the question is always, "how do we get there?" I completely agree with your take on what it is that we need, but I think that it's going to be questionable whether or not we'll be able to get to a secondary with an average performance floor when we don't have any pieces at all. We don't need Patrick Peterson or Revis to have a competent secondary, but coming into this offseason, I think that our draft is going to be very heavily focused on the CB position if we expect to even be able to field 2006 Jammer/D.Flo
As easy as it would be to say our CB's all need to go there all trash I really believe this is a problem of the scheme the chargers are running more then the fault of the CB's. I am not a fan of this bend but don't break mentality we play in coverage. We got our cbs playing so off idk how we could even expect them to make a play on the ball. To me it looks like they have cason play off because they dont give him help while bringing jammer closer to the line but giving him a safety most of the time. The whole 9 yards off philosophy they play with cason and just concede the 10 yard out all game frustrates me. I'd like to see us start to play more aggressive coverages. I'd also like to see us play cason man to man at 5 yards and play the rest of the secondary zone behind it. Jammer's strength at this point in his career seems to be zone anyway so we should use both of them to their strengths. Similar to how we misused cromartie by making him play a lot of our zone concepts... sometimes you just have to adjust your scheme to the personnel and put them in a position to succeed.. I don't believe we are doing that for our cb's right now. When it comes to our pass coverage we play it very very conservative.. all the best defenses have the mentality of we aint giving you an inch your gonna have to earn every last yard.. thats not a mentality our defense has right now
I hope Chris Carr pans out, just a couple years ago he was one of the best in the league
Respectively, if the cases of guys like Kareem Jackson, Brice McCain, Tarrell Brown, and Tramaine Brock in Houston and San Fran are at all indicative, we can't assume that with proper scheme adjustment and further development (I would contend we haven't had a good DB coach in the better part of a decade - Wilks was no prize and Meeks is equally trashy if not worse) guys like Gilchrist, Wright, and Gatson won't pan out. Am I saying that any of them are going to be the guys assigned to man-up on a Colston or Bowe? Not in the slightest - save possibly for Wright - but I'm also not suggesting we throw the baby out with the bathwater. At this point the only guys that have given us a suitable sample size to deem they are not capable of performing the job adequately are Jammer and Cason. We need at least one, potentially two, starting CB's (and certainly if we're going by AJ's 3-year plan-ahead strategy... we need 2). I'm not saying it's easy to pull off in a single offseason, but it's also far from impossible, because it has been accomplished more than twice in recent history.
It's certainly possible, but as you've pointed out above there don't seem to be many soon-to-be-free agent CBs coming up who are going to fill that role for us, which means that we've either got to draft one (which, in a deep CB draft class is probably not a bad idea), or deal with the suck for another season.
Yeah that boy from Bama is good too..
But, Vontae Davis, who I believe is and has been a better player than Haden has been, only went for a 2nd rounder. Grant it, the Dolphins were just 'sick' of him and his inconsistency. I wouldn't mind trading away a 2nd and 3rd rounder for Haden. But with this pass rush it could make him a whole lot better. He has GREAT awareness and hands.
Sean Smith actually becomes a FA at the end of 2013. I mean if you can get Joe Haden this year or Xavier Rhodes in the draft, and sign Sean Smith in FA you have yourself some really good corners.
I do think Wright can be a RCB, he has all the tools and skill set, but with missing significant time this year with a sprained ankle could effect his development. Gilchrist I thought last year could be a RCB, but seeing him lately looks like a nickel back at best. But he can play safety as well.
Can we get Cromartie back?
Separate names with a comma.