Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by AnteaterCharger, Jan 7, 2013.
So yeah, I'm good with using a first rounder on him
Pretty much. I'd want to trade back a smidge (4-5 picks - he's not getting out of the Top 15-20 range), and I want to make sure his arm length checks out (literally, when the only concern I have for a guard at the pro level is that his arms may be slightly too short for ideal, that's a damn good thing), but talking with a couple of guys who regularly chat with pro scouts, they're confident he's easily in Mike Iupati range right now as far as prospects go (possibly even a little higher given level of competition face and level of coaching received to this point).
I'm cool with either him or Fisher in the 1st. Jon Cooper out of UNC is no chince prize either. And to be honest, I'm entirely comfortable taking Fisher in the 1st (at #11 if need-be), and using our 4th to move up in the 2nd to grab Barrett Jones if available (I still think he's worthy of a late 1st round pick, but guys in the know seem to think his present need for increased strength probably pushes him to the top of the 2nd). If Hardwick comes back for one more year, run Fisher - Troutman (willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment, off his college tape) - Hardwick - Jones - FA/Haslam/Harris. If not, slot Molk or an FA vet at center for a year, with the plan of moving Jones over after a year (though Jones could conceivably start at C from day one, just would need double-team help/chip early on).
BTW... where should I set up my thread so that people can admit that I was right about Mant'i Te'o?
Knowing we might have to run clary out there because getting rid of him and clary might be cost prohibitive I'd be happy with a starting lineup of
Jeromey Clary - lemonade out of lemons
Phil Loadholt (dream)/ other free agent/ lower free agent
That would mean three of the top four picks are likely going to OL but I think that's desperately needed. Give Molk another year and ill bet he will be ready to roll no problem. I am intrigued by troutman but warmack is too good to pass up even at 11
Btw re te'o feel free to start a thread in the draft section. If he falls to day 2 I'd take a serious look at him
Where the is Luis Vasquez? I do like the idea of moving Clary to guard...or cutting him. If I were to do a mock our O-line would probably look like this. (IE: Don't count on us spending anything on outside UFAs)
LT - Eric Fisher
LG - Luis Vasquez
C - Nick Hardwick
RG - Jeromey Clary or Troutman
RT - Oday Aboushi
I'm not against Te'o as a prospect - some people seem to think that about me. I'm just against Te'o being considered this fantastic "going to be making splash plays all over the place" prospect akin to Von Miller who should be a lock to go in the Top 10... because he's not unless someone bites HARD on the hype. He's still a fringe 1st round guy who I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to see go at the bottom of the 1st to a perennial playoff team who cares less about him having a massive ceiling and more about the fact that he can bring continued stability to their unit over extended periods of time. I'll be more than bitter when he likely ends up playing for Baltimore or Pittsburgh (though I'd sooner him there than Denver).
As far as Warmack, he's a RG at the next level most likely. Likely could play both spots, but his ceiling is higher on the strong-side (not to mention starting two rookies on the same side is asking for trouble). Clary may be more easily gotten rid of than I'd initially thought - at least from tweets back and forth with KA, it seems his guaranteed money may have been fully paid out, so all we'd be sweating is eating around $2ish million in prorated signing bonus as a dead money cap-hit, but in doing so we'd save having to pay him somewhere around ~$4 million in 2013 game-checks. Either way, Clary doesn't project well on the left, and my biggest concern with Troutman is honestly whether or not he's been able to get in any sort of weight training in recovery from last year's surgery (beyond just rehab). This is a guy who was rated at 3rd-4th round stock by a number of scouts prior to the injury/surgery, who came out of a traditionally solid program for OL (Penn State linemen weren't always spectacular, but you could also say that very, very rarely did any of them suck - "average" is an improvement for this line at this point), and who didn't surrender a single sack during his senior season at that school (playing in the Big 10... drawing guys like Jonathan Hankins, Kawann Short, and Barrett Steinkuhler). If his shoulder checks out and he's had a chance to add at least some lower body bulk this past year, I think he's at least a dependable stop-gap until we can develop or lay hands on someone visibly better.
I'm not an Aboushi fan, especially as a RT. His stock is really only where it's at because he has LT potential otherwise he's a clear-cut 3rd rounder. Too many holding penalties and false starts. He can drive/run-block to save his life right now. I'd honestly invest in Dallas Thomas or Justin Pugh from Syracuse before him and if we took Fisher in the first round Aboushi would be completely off my board unless we're talking straight value in the 5th or later.
Also, I'd switch up Troutman and Vasquez... gut feel, but I'm fairly certain that Troutman played primarily LG at PSU.
My mock OL would be,
LT - Eric Fisher
LG - Johnnie Troutman
C - Nick Hardwick
RG - Louis Vasquez
RT - Barry Richardson/Austin Howard (RFA)/Ryan Harris
Depending on what we do at RT will determine what we do at LG. We'll either keep Dombrowski for depth, and have Troutman as the starter or well search for a starting LG in FA and we'll keep Clary. Above, are FA's that I believe could be an upgrade over Clary (what isn't?) and affordable. I hope we keep Mike Harris, as a back up at RT/LT and hope he can develop. I do believe Kevin Haslam deserves a camp invite, and show what he has, he didn't do bad filling in at RT.
Then having back ups: Mike Harris, Brandyn Dombrowski, David Molk, DJ Fluker/Justin Pugh.
I will only consider the two bolded players if they drop to the 3rd round. As I don't see us going back to back OL in the draft. Both can develop to OG's, Pugh I believe has the better upside, and also have experience at OT if we need them in case of emergency.
Clary is still a head scratcher, cause I feel as if he will be gone, and he won't. Who knows anymore..
Talking to a few 'Sota fans, they really think he's an average RT. Holding penalties, false starts, uneccessary roughness, etc. all tie into him. 11 penalties this year, 5 false starts and 2 holdings. He gave up I believe 4.5 sacks this year. He's getting paid a bit over 900K in the final year of his rookie contract. He'll obviously want more, and the average RT in the NFL makes $5M a year. So he will be looking at that amount, because the guy has started 52 of 53 games, and hasn't missed one since his rookie year. Durability, just like Clary.
Clary gave up 10 sacks this year, Loadholt 4.5. Clary commited 2 penalties this year, Loadholt 11. Loadholt didn't give up a sack after Week 9 this year. But, with AP going off, it's hard to see 'Sota just let him walk, especially since AP is demanding the FO signs him. And being a Sooner alumni also helps his cause with AP.
It would be a dream, but 'Sota only has $8M in cap money right now (not counting this years FA's). I believe I read they'll have about $13.9M in cap space. Hard to imagine a deal doesn't get done, but they have been on and off in talks since October. So, there is a possibility, a slim one. I think he'd be worth it.
How come I read somewhere in the UT forums that the Chargers will be in good shape in 2013 cap space? Someone posted a thread stating we could have up to $30M in cap space after no re-signings of our UFA's and that number can go up with the release of Spikes & English to $5M more?
I'd deff trade back, gain another 2nd rounder if were gonna draft Warmack. I just think LT is really needy at this point, and having a staple for years to come in Fisher protecting our QB's blindside is very important, and I don't know if I want a guy with 2nd round value protecting Rivers' blindside, guess thats a step up from a UDFA? Lol
Because the people on the U-T forums never factor in things such as LTBE's that have to be budgeted for in the cap, the fact that cutting a guy accelerates any prorated cap hits for bonus monies that have been already paid out but not accounted for on the "cap ledger," and that they don't grasp the fact that no team ever spends all of their cap in the pre-season because you need to have an emergency fund/budget available to you to sign players if (or in our case since we have Chau "WHEN") guys get injured.
Under the current CBA we do have the option of rolling over any unused cap space from this season to next (I don't believe we have a ton in that respect considering the amount of injuries we've had and guys we've put onto IR who were still receiving paychecks) and this year will be the last, under the CBA, that we can borrow from the following year's available cap up to, IIRC, 3-4% (it might be 5% but for some reason 3% stands out pretty strong in my mind). And the latter is something I can definitely see a new GM doing, particularly since the top priority of the early offseason is likely to be extending Butler - and after him we don't really have anyone still contracted on the roster that's going to require an extension for at least 2 years (Liuget... and then Rivers/Mathews/Brown - assuming the two of them get their ish together). You could possibly say the same about Danario Alexander, but until he shows you season to season consistency you don't plan your cap-budgeting around an oft-injured WR no matter how good a half-season he has.
And that, as always, is easier said than done. Teams tend to go on runs for two different positions: QB's and ultra-athletic DE's. And while I'm still one to believe that in the rookie wage scale era we're always going to see at least three QB's go in the 1st round no matter how poor the quality at the top of the class is initially viewed (demand will always trump), I'm not completely convinced we're sitting in the money-spot for a team to trade up to if a run on QB's does start.
I still have a major Man crush on my Boy Travis Frederick. He's playing a little out of place at C, but in our power man blocking scheme, where he's a perfect fit, he could be a dominant strong side OG. Massive dude, with incredible power and technique is near perfect, and looks good in pass pro. He's a flat out mauler though. LBC what do you think of him in the 2nd/3rd. I personally wouldn't even hesitate to pick him with our pick in the 2nd if thats the way we decided to go in terms of OL 2 picks in a row. That'd give us Fisher-Troutman/Vasquez-Hardwick-Frederick-Clary/Haslem/FA/Harris OL that IMO looks pretty solid.
Another thing i noticed watching tape of him, is that they are completely comfortable pulling him from the C position, which is an incredibly hard thing to do, and teams usually dont like doing it, yet he does it to perfection.
Lol I would draft all three of them. I would take Warmack in the first, Jones in the second, and Fluker in the 3rd....haha
I have a hard time accepting a Guard at 11 if Fisher is on the board. This team desperately needs a starting left tackle, and while you can get quality guards all the way down to the 5th round, you're not going to see that kind of quality at LT.
Hahaha yeah and start Mike Harris at left tackle again next year...that would be awesome!
Depends on the system you're running actually. But then again, I don't expect us to switch over to the Saints' guard-centric system anytime soon...
Especially if Bill Polian learned Tommy Telescope everything he knows.
I personally, am 100% against taking guards in the 1st round, ever, because I believe there are a lot of stocky 5th round OTs that would have been 2nd or 3rd round picks if they're college teams could have afforded to move them inside to guard.
Road graders are not as hard to find as 6'8 300lb men who can hold their ground against Dwight Freeney.
Well... the irony is that even with a guard-dominant scheme the Saints still didn't draft a guard before the 4th and still came out really solid (even when they lost 5th round selection Carl Nicks to free agency they turned around and signed Ben Grubbs to replace him - letting the Ravens spend the 2nd round pick on him and they just signed him away).
Just saying, guards can hold more value than tackles in certain schemes. Hell, I think when Shanahan (save for Clady) was working his whole building an All-Pro OL through the 3rd-5th rounds bit in Denver, he actually drafted interior linemen earlier and more often than he did tackles.
Actually Ben Grubbs was taken 29th overall...I know well because we had the 30th pick, and we know how that ended.
I wasn't saying guards aren't valuable, I was saying you could find great ones in every round, and guys like Jahri Evans and Carl Nicks are obviously the poster boys of that. You're much less likely to find a 10+ year starting left tackle after the 2nd round though...
So...all we are saying...is give Warmack a chance...
What do you think about Travis Frederick LBC?
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