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Chargers announce both AJ Smith and Norv Turner are returning

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by CoronaDoug, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Well, I was just speaking MY opinion. I wasn't saying the same thing a year ago.

    I understand your frustration. I also don't wear rose colored glasses. That the Chargers have been amongst
    the 5 winningest teams in the modern era is not an opinion or a San Diego perspective...it's NFL fact.
    I don't believe for a second that that guarantees a single win in 2012. The Chargers have enough really
    good playmakers on offense to be a contender next year. But the defense desperately needs impact guys.
    I think the D roster is the weakest it's been in a long time...that's why I'm not as angry at Manusky as some.
    I don't see the lack of desire to win, re. management, that you do. Otherwise, not all that different.
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  2. 340Bolt21
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    340Bolt21 BoltTalker

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    I havent posted in a while but FML... Once again we will have a decent team with no players... I dont hate Norv, but wanted him gone... We lost too many games because we too conservative especially when we had a lead. Then we lost too many games when instead of trying to score before half or end of the game we got soft. Tried for a FG or let the clock expired or whatever the case was. Norv is okay, but doesnt have it in him to Crush someone. Look at the Jets game. They talked ****, we were up big on them and then the 2nd half we decided, oh... lets get conservative and run out the clock instead of putting it on them. Like Rex Ryan didnt just call you out. Up top, we just dont have no killer instinct. I can go further into details, but dont have the time. Then we have by far the worse Defensive coordinator... I dont want any excuses of injuries or personnel (although it matters slightly) the scheme is way too passive. No adjustments are made. Nothing disguised... etc. Every team goes thru injuries and no one had an off season. Tired of the excuses. Not making the playoffs 2 straight years in this division where the WORSE QB in the league is going ahead of us is excusable.

    So since my rant cant change much, at least let Manusky go, and draft/sign a few playmakers and some sort of speed. We also must have the slowest team in the league. We really strike fear in no one at this point. And with how management has been recently, I can see VJ leaving unless Rivers can convince him to stay. Just when I thought we were in for a good year, I see this. Chargers, please prove me wrong....
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  3. ViennaLager
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    ViennaLager FC Eintracht Bamberg Smokey Beers

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    A lot of players stepped up for Norv, including leaders of this team. If your mad at Spanos, you should partly blame the players too.
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  4. The LBC
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    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    I may yet challenge you for the last part by day's end... we'll see.

    I will say that the reaction among some folks is hysterical. Yes, you heard me... hy-ster-i-cal.

    I disagree with the idea that "if there's no big name out there" then opting for the devil you know over the devil you don't know is automatically a bad idea... even if that's Dean's logic as well. And if that actually is his logic, I'm even more convinced that the man cares more about his bottom line than anything else because "the big name" sells tickets to casual fans and attracts more casual viewers (thereby greater likelihood for primetime games), most of the time "the big name" doesn't often turn out to be a particularly successful football coach in his second go-round (for the most recent incarnation of this look no further than Shanahan in Washington - who has produced successive records worse than his hapless predecessor in his tenure there thus far). Belichick's the exception, not the rule, as I feel he should just be thrown out of the discussion as neither a pro or con to one end or another. He's a once in a generation, Bill Walsh type coach, the type who defines a new paradigm and while many try to emulate it, they never quite live up to the original paradigm. But Mike Tomlin was a relative unknown and certainly not a "big name" when he was plucked from Minnesota's coaching staff. The same can be said for Sean Payton off the Cowboys staff as a QB coach, Mike McCarthy (after a single year as OC for a rookie QB in San Francisco), John Harbaugh as the special teams coach for the Eagles...

    That said, I was hoping this wouldn't be what would happen but I was prepared for it - if not in the back of my mind expecting it. I'm equipped to handle it - I went through this kind of apathy from ownership in my youth when I grew up an LA Rams fan... several folks already know this about me. I feel bad for the true diehards that have been loyal supporters and season ticket holders and have seen this team through the Beathard years, through the Devaney-triple-clusterphrunk years, and through the years of screwy management and nonsensical coaching even prior to that. They deserve better. And if (or realistically should I say when) this franchise sees an exodus of the bandwagon support that leaped on during the LT yippie-years, then so be it... in the end I'd say we're better for it.

    To clarify, am I saying that anyone who reacts negative to this, or who opts not to renew their ST's or opts to not spend another red cent on anything Chargers related until ownership gets its collective heads out of it collective anuses, is a bandwagon fan? Hell no. But like Ant said, just because he won't support the team by purchasing season tickets doesn't mean he won't continue to be a fan. Those saying that they won't even bother watching the team next season or they're done with the team. Good riddance! The old guard have seen worse years than this, where there wasn't even a silver-lining that pure good luck would strike and breaks might come our way for a change, and this team could still win. Go back to the late 90's teams here... those were days when getting lucky breaks meant this team might end up outside of the 5 worst records in the league. I can't claim to be among their number, but at that time I was watching the then-owner of the team I then-supported and grew up on trade away our best players, fire our good coaching staff, and hire coaches who were counter-intuitive to what the strengths of the team were. Those were times for both team when there was literally no hope.

    The outlook may look bleak here, but there is still a glimmer of hope because of the talent that there IS on this team, because of the QB we have as our starter, because of the results we've seen that this team CAN pull off (against good teams like the Ravens) we just haven't seen them do it consistently. Small hope is still hope and it's better than hopeless.

    But the people throwing out the FU's to Norv and AJ and Spanos... sorry, that's hilarious. If anything Norv probably cares more than any of the three what people think of him. AJ and (now very obviously) Spanos could care less what the opinions of the fans are; they're convinced they know better. But I suppose by the logic of these posters, AJ and Norv should be chastised for not just up and resigning their jobs, realizing that they're lowly pieces of dung undeserving of livelihood or even life. Like I said, hilarious and nonsensical. No one's saying you can't complain, but if you're not going to contribute any constructive discussion... why exactly are you on a discussion forum and posting?
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  5. JoeRockhead
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    JoeRockhead BoltTalker

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    I agree, our defense is our weakest link. We have to be willing to sign some veteran FA players to shore it up.
    We can't pick enough guys in the draft to fill all of our weaknesses. The o line need depth too. that would be our second weak link.
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  6. CoronaDoug
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    CoronaDoug Well-Known Member

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    Just remember this!

    [​IMG]
    sdutChargers S.D. U-T Chargers

    Norv Turner defends Greg Manusky. Says young players and injuries have been more of an issue.
    2 Jan

    [​IMG]
    sdutChargers S.D. U-T Chargers

    Norv said he would not consider the hiring of Manusky a mistake. "Considering the circumstances we had, he did a good job" --annie
    2 Jan
  7. The LBC
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    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Depends on exactly what positions you're referring to. We need to use free agency to flesh out the depth - that I agree with. Expecting us to sign multiple starters at multiple positions and having them gel in a single offseason and produce at a high level goes against what history has shown us in the past is likely to occur.

    If Manusky doesn't go then ultimately we're pretty well screwed on defense, no matter who we sign, unless one of those signings is a new LB coach (to replace the departing John Pagano) who is actually capable of pulling a Rivera if/when management/Norv have the stones to give Greg the axe 4 or so games into the season when we come out playing prevent defense in the first half, giving up massive cushions to receivers from the line, and consistently rushing no more than 4 men on any given play. His scheme is one that will never look effective even with elite talent playing in it (which he's had in the past with Willis and Smith and to a lesser degree Franklin, Spikes, Bowman, Lawson, and Clements) unless the red zone defense tightens up and the break part of the "bend but don't break" philosophy is actually kept from happening.
  8. FCBolt
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    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what I've been thinking. TD brought up the pt that Norv defended Crosby right up until he fired him. Let's hope this is the same deal. But I'm not holding my breath on that either.
  9. JoeRockhead
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    JoeRockhead BoltTalker

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    Yes, depth. We need a pass rusher, LB ,DE,and help at DB as well. We could use a little better speed on defense as well. I wouldn't recommend rebuilding the whole defense. We have potential. But we have no pass rush, and can't cover very well in the passing game. I would like us just to sign a guy or two worth something, not some player near the end of his career. A key player at one of our weak spots could make a difference.
  10. The LBC
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    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    I'd also point out that the timing of when that quote was issued is extremely relevant. Norv's job wasn't safe when he issued that statement. And it was in his best interest at that time to not rock the boat or give any more credence or weight to tip the scales in Dean's mind that he (Norv) had made mistakes that were worthy of getting him fired (like hiring Manusky).

    I'd posted this in another thread. If Norv truly does believe that it was merely youth and injuries that were hamstringing Manusky then that's all the evidence anyone should need that Norv isn't a capable head coach (because scheme and implementation were Manusky's greatest downfall and the Ravens' defensive roster would have still looked mediocre implementing it). If he was saying that as a means to laying low and aim towards self-preservation then I can't really fault him for it. That's just plain strategery. ;)
  11. exodus
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    exodus Well-Known Member

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    Well, that takes care of that. I have been bracing for this the last couple of days.
  12. The LBC
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    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    What I'm saying is sign the depth, draft for the starters. That's not saying start the rookies no matter where they're drafted, but going out and signing a pass-rusher in this market is pointless - the only ones that actually hit the market are no better than depth guys anyway (no team ever let's a franchise pass-rusher walk)... save for perhaps the rare instance of Robert Mathis (and he's no guarantee to translate well to the 3-4, will demand a sizable contract, and is going to be on the wrong side of 30 at which point guys like Porter, Taylor, Abraham, and McGuinest all started dropping off noticeably).

    ILB... drop Diggs, sign for depth here, but anyone just willing to cast aside Mouton with ever giving him a fair shot is foolish and frivolous. And we're not a team that can afford to be frivolous. DE - if Castillo can stay healthy, and yes I realize that's an if - we need depth at best at this position. Anyone expecting Liuget to make a massive impact as a rookie doesn't understand the game well enough (sorry, it's flat out true). A full offseason should do wonders for him. Another offseason will only add to what Martin's capable of contributing. Harris, if he's amenable to returning on a team-friendly deal, is a quality-have for pass-rushing downs.

    SS is probably the biggest area we'd need to be looking around; albeit one I'm not holding out a ton of hope at. Norv's already on record as saying he doesn't think Jammer projects well as a safety. So that's likely out. This year's safety class in the draft is pretty mediocre (I know some folks love Mark Barron because he plays for a great Alabama defense, but the holes in his game are apparent). What worries me is that if we don't address the need in FA (and with the contract we gave to Weddle, I'm not confident we're going to be out and willing to give another such contract to a free agent), with Gregory and Oliver hitting FA as well, SS is the most glaring area where AJ would be likely to make his token "reach for a need" 1st round pick (and yes, picking Mark Barron in the 1st round would be the equivalent of taken Larry English in the 1st round - just one comes from a more touted program).
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  13. BrecksOnlyBoltzFan
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    BrecksOnlyBoltzFan BoltTalker

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    Players dont make decisions. Dean Spanos is the only one to blame
  14. CoronaDoug
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    CoronaDoug Well-Known Member

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  15. JoeRockhead
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    JoeRockhead BoltTalker

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    I don't want to sign retreads either. If a player is not worth it you don't sign him. But sometime a good player IS out there and you need to bite the bullet and sign him. I would like to see us get good players through the draft too. But we need help now.
  16. ViennaLager
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    ViennaLager FC Eintracht Bamberg Smokey Beers

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    Players can play a part in the decisions. We've seen this before. Remember the demands made by leaders of our team to keep Dielman. Players put the pressure on the decision makers.
  17. robdog
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    robdog Code Monkey Staff Member Administrator

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    Anyone know what 1-AA player we are going to draft in the first round?
  18. CoronaDoug
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    CoronaDoug Well-Known Member

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  19. JoeRockhead
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    :roflmao:
  20. Buck Melanoma
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    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    Yeah ... Brian Quick outta App State. :p

    I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Or evening.
  21. AnteaterCharger
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    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Of course the players are happy that Norv is back; he doesn't make them work or practice hard, he doesn't hold them accountable, he doesn't expect them to do their job or to attempt to play well even, and above all else nothing will happen to them if they don't. If they actually succeed for one glorious moment, their job is safe for as long as possible. Do you think players like coaches who make them practice, hold them accountable etc? Not many people like that in their jobs, and players are far from super human.

    Furthermore what does it say to those players who are poorly performing that your coach, who has failed miserably the last two years, has saved his job probably by a worthless win vs Raiders and a three game winning streak when we were completely eliminated? What does it say to anyone in the organization when after two years of substandard coaching, leadership etc that such a person is safe in his position both years? What does it say when AJ Smith's poor drafting and player selection is secure after five straight years of failure?

    Don't expect this team to act, practice, play or perform any better, this is an organization that appears to fully accept mediocrity at best and failure at worse.
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  22. MMJ4mil
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    MMJ4mil BoltTalker

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    i still thank baby jesus for cancelling my season tickets after the 14-2 debacle of a postseason in 2006.
  23. Eurobolt Mike
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    Eurobolt Mike BoltTalker

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    Superbowl here we come!

    I like Norv.

    Already looking forward to homefield advantage...

    etc.
  24. Lance19
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    Hey Ant.
    Some of this I agree with.
    A lot of it I don't.
    But what really struck me was the part re. the Oakland game:
    I love football. I love Charger football. I really enjoy watching my team play. I love watching them win.
    And victories over the Raiders have always been some of the sweetest. I never thought of one as "worthless."
    I tried to figure out what you meant by that. If a game...or even a win, is worthless because it
    doesn't lead to a playoff birth, than I've wasted the 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976,
    1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999,
    2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005 & 2010 seasons on more worthless Charger football. That just seems
    like a really weird way to look at a spectator sport that is supposed to bring pleasure.
    I usually like your posts, and maybe your interpretation of the whole "Norv & AJ are back" situation
    is coloring your mood...but I just felt that this longtime Charger fan (who has suffered plenty for it)
    ought to say something.


    p.s. The Chargers weren't "completely eliminated" during that three game winning streak.
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  25. Lance19
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    Wasn't he still a freshman at the University of Florida at that time? ;)
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  26. Pointyearedog
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    The classics, almost reminds me of... me.

    napalm.jpg
  27. The LBC
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    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Ant, I get that you're pissed, but you're focusing on one side of the coin and that side only. "Five straight years of failure," sorry, but I know you're more logical when you're calm than to make this kind of blanket statement.

    I'm not saying I agree with what went down today or how it came about, but I'm not going to revise history in my frustration to completely ignore the positive things that were done. Do they ultimately outweigh the negatives? Not very likely. But that doesn't mean that they don't exist either.
  28. AnteaterCharger
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    1) They were almost completely eliminated except for some ridiculous scenarios, I note elimination at the point where your scenarios leave reality and approach insanity.
    2) While I love seeing my team win, especially over the Raiders, I'm past the point where a victory over a hated rival constitutes a successful season. When we were 1-15 or 5-11 or whatnot, beating a superior rival was a pleasure to see. I took joy in watching LT run over the Raiders in 02 & 03, but that's when I wasn't expecting this team either to compete in the playoffs or even challenge for a spot. When we expect this team to go deep in the playoffs when it was the point of hiring Norv in the first place, a win over the raiders at a game when the season was already over is insufficient for me to be overly excited. Its also absolutely not the basis behind supporting a head coach who has failed.
    3) I am like you and other young fans in that we grew up not in the Coryell happy days but through the bad late 80s, the worst late 90s culminating in 00 & 03. As such I'm thrilled that we have been such a successful team for such a long period. but that also means i expect more from this team, especially in a weak division and with a talented team. No we aren't what we were in 06-09 BUT we should be better then all the other teams. One year I could take as a fluke, two years shows a downward trend
    4) LBC - I just see alot more negatives today then positives. We might have finished on a positive for a second year in a row but those positives again came when the team was basically eliminated. Only then, and at a point where the team had lost two pro bowl OL and more, did the team act, play and game plan like what we expected of them. Compare the Ravens to the Dolphins/Vikings win, tell me why we couldn't have been dominant when we had EVERYONE healthy at the start and the team was basically the same and healthy. You saw the games same as everyone else here, did the team look 1/2 as good during those late wins that they did at any point in the losing streak or the initial winning streak? Did they game plan or make play calls as well? The answer is a definite no. The conclusion I can draw is that the playbook, the game plan, didn't change until the season was basically lost. That is pathetic, that is disgraceful

    Yeah I might be angrier then I should be considering, and yes I'm seeing it as glass half empty, but can someone point to this decision as positive?
  29. Fouts
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    Fouts Well-Known Member

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    So, who here is FOR SURE cancelling their season tickets?
  30. Lance19
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    1) All the Chargers had to do was beat the Lions. That ONE change would've done it...and they'd
    be on a 5 game winning streak entering the playoffs. One game doesn't seem like a ridiculous or insane fantasy to me.

    2) I would never say the Raider win "constitutes a successful season." Merely that it's not "worthless" to me.

    3) I'm not young. ;) 1969 is the first season I remember at all. I was tiny but already obsessed. Zero playoff games
    my first 10 years as a Charger fan. I guess I'm a bit heartier than the new kids
    who are convinced that 2 narrow misses means their Charger fandom is already late for the door.

    4) I share your disappointment...however, I've rarely seen a situation that seemed (in my semi-humble opinion)
    so clearly the fault of players (especially the normally excellent Rivers) making errors they're paid too much to make.
    Bad execution caused that 6 game skid...I don't think schemes were nearly as big a factor.

    The good news is, given your anger, you have lots and lots and lots of like-minded company. :)
    I'm the rare one that that thought canning either Norv or AJ was unwise.
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