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Chargers Post-Cut Moves Thread

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by AnteaterCharger, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Without having to start a new thread and having this being the most active now that Clarys pasty complexion and Goodmans sweet return skills have awoken the sleeping giants. Do you guys think Cushings new 6 year deal sets the market to re-open Butlers contract extension talks?
     
  2. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    You mean other than the fact that I watched every game the man played in? Sure. If you look at his 26 returns last year, only 3 made it past the 30 yard line....none past the 33 yard line.

    Bottom line is if he was the great returner you claim, he wouldn't have just been released from his minimum contract.
     
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  3. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Yeah, if they have any cap space that is.
     
  4. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Uh, I didn't claim he was great....... I just said he wasn't as bad as some fans seem to think. But, then again, you wouldn't want me to accuse you of "putting words in my mouth." ;)

    Face it, with the point of the kickoff moved up, returns are not what they once were. With as many touchbacks as there are now, anything beyond the 20 is a plus. If Fozzy can do the job, then great. I never said Goodman wasn't replaceable, I just said you'd have to replace both his return and coverage skills..... now they have (but with two different people).
     
  5. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    His and Sean Lee's deals are going to give the essential number that Butler's agent is going to be looking for something in the neighborhood of in terms of guaranteed money - we might be able to get away with a little less given that both Cushing and Lee have gotten Pro Bowl honors in the past and Butler hasn't. But I'd say rule of thumb will likely be right around the high $6's to low $7's million per yr, $19-20m guaranteed range. Nice thing is that Weddle will probably restructure his deal next season, and Rivers almost certainly will because the guaranteed monies on his contract will have run out.
     
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  6. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Sorry, but considering you're a noted Norv, Clary, and now Goodman defender...you've just lost any benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned. You're hair brained stats and skewed logic could make Ryan Leaf appear to have been a solid contributor.
     
  7. Dublin Bolt

    Dublin Bolt BoltTalker

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    Yep you might be right but I'm a glass half empty man when it comes to Geathers.
     
  8. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    He did the same exact thing against Oakland, we were lucky it was spotted on the 1.
     
  9. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Just because I don't have an irrational hatred of every player (or coach) who has a shortcoming doesn't mean my logic is skewed. I'm just not a knee jerk fan, like some people around here. I can see the positives as well as the negatives. Unlike you, I'm also not so arrogant to think I my opinion sacrosanct.
     
  10. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    What you are is pleasantly naive, you look at players like them and say..."oh well, he could be worse."

    I look at players like Clary and Goodman and say..."The don't make us better."

    If the organization did things your way we'd be on a never ending treadmill of mediocrity. At some point you have recognize when a player's (or coaches) faults outweigh their talent, and weed out the weak links even if they're not the absolute worst at what they do.
     
  11. Sydalish

    Sydalish Addicted to Sports

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    @matilack & @Blue Bolt

    Guys... let's leave the personal jabs at the door and just talk football pleeeease :) you're both making excellent points, worth discussion, without them.
     
  12. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    If I had a nickel for every time Matilack and Bluebolt did not find the smallest opportunity to take a jab at each other, I'd have no monies.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Well, as you know, I've always felt that it's my additional decades of following
    (aka "suffering" with) the Chargers that probably makes me view this a bit differently
    than those who've been here for fewer (and better) times.
    When some were absolutely hysterical about the 'disaster' of 9-7, I was pretty unfazed...
    not because I didn't want better (God is that ever the dumbest accusation ever?
    the "I pretend to demand more" nonsense?), but because perspective reminded me that most of the time the Chargers had been much worse. In other words, yes, if a newbie fan has only the last decade of uncharacteristically winning times to judge by, "mediocrity" really does seem like a horrible, horrible slur.

    I'd argue that right now, if the pundits are even close to right,
    (Chargers ranked 27 of 32 teams, etc.) http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/...ings-clip-and-save-for-mocking-purposes-later
    (and yes, given my own unhappy analysis of this roster) "mediocrity" may be an unreasonably
    high goal this season. Few "experts" expect the Chargers to be as good as 8-8.
    Maybe it's 1998 again (5-11) and we realize that mediocrity is a step above our station.
    Maybe it's time to stop pretending that this is a 13-3 club.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  14. CoronaDoug

    CoronaDoug Well-Known Member

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    I keep saying that this is a 5 win club this season. I am not mad about it either, it is what it is. Consider 66-78 or 82-92 seasons. We could be in another 10+ year drought. This club has only had 12 seasons of 10+ wins since 1960.

    Maybe a history lesson is needed.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_San_Diego_Chargers_seasons

    Believe me it is easier to swallow on paper than it is to live through it. ;)
     
  15. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    I think we have more talent than a 5 win team.

    Maybe, it's young and untested, but I don't see use as having a worse roster than last year..... a little bit improved in my view. If the offense is tailored to the players' strengths, and the defense avoids late game collapses, then I don't see how we can't at least have a .500 season.
     
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  16. Riff Raff

    Riff Raff BoltTalker

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    That's easy - injuries & razor-thin depth. If ALL goes well we're 8-8, maybe 9-7. A couple of key injuries & we quickly go to 5 wins or less.
     
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  17. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Not that I don't agree, but what does it have to do with wanting Richard Goodman gone?

    Getting better is always the goal, regardless of if you're 3-13 or 13-3, the day it's not is the day I stop supporting this organization.

    9-7, 8-8, 7-9 marked the end of a potential Super Bowl chase era, only maybe the 3rd or 4th in our history, can't blame people for being upset when the organization imploded itself.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  18. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Agree completely. I like most of our starters, and I believe in Rivers more than most....but this roster is paper thin.

    Best case for me is actually 10-6...worst case, Rivers just doesn't get the system and a couple injuries on D lead our way to 4-12.
     
  19. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I wasn't addressing Goodman, specifically (which is why I didn't mention him).

    My point was that it seems odd, when the consensus is that your team is definitely
    below "mediocrity," to throw "mediocrity" around as if it's some damning epithet.

    Mediocrity appears to be a step up from where we are now.
    (a concept all too familiar to those of us who endured many 4-12 seasons)
     
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  20. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    If you're gonna jump into this argument and ignore the Goodman part of the conversation, then you're gonna miss the point.

    The point is: If we're mediocre this year (or less) then so be it, there is not much that can be done at this point in the season. But we can't go into every season retaining poor players like Richard Goodman just because he's not the absolute worse at what he does, same goes for guys like Clary, Jammer, Spikes, or Cason. The point is (and TT seems to get this) mediocrity is not the goal of the organization, even if a few guys like you, Conc, Doug, Blue etc... are happy to accept it.
     
  21. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Didn't we have those last season?........ we still won more than 5 games. There's not many worse scenarios then having a UDFA RT from the practice squad being thrown into starting duty at LT. Harris was by far the worst starting LT in the league last year.

    Even if Dunlap goes down this year, Harris is a better player than he was back then. Sure, losing Freeney would be a big blow, but I don't see our overall depth as worse than last year...... do you?
     
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  22. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    I don't know exactly what to expect from the offense this year mainly because I haven't seen it yet. Rivers has got to hold up his end of the deal and he's been dealt some risky cards. WR's that mostly known for their injury propensity rather than what they've accomplished to this point and some of them have actually done nothing yet. A starting RB that has yet to ever be determined healthy beyond the fourth game of the season (just a guess) also is known for fumbling before even mentioning his ability. I won't mention San Diego's version of the great Maginot Offensive Line.

    The defense should look much the same as last year except better with a little bit of seasoning. Other than being see thru beyond the first team they do stand a chance at being very good if injuries stay maintainable. The D-backfield is better manned but less experienced and will depend on great play from the front seven to force mistakes. Should be one of the better D's in the league and only God knows they'll need all the help they can get from the O and ST. No more short fields y'all.
     
  23. Sydalish

    Sydalish Addicted to Sports

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    Let's not go so far as to say anyone is accepting of mediocrity Mat - because I don't believe that's how any of the folks you mentioned actually feel. So lets not start accusing people of that bs. We all want this team to be better and I think we can all agree that isn't going to happen right away. Understandably, considering the situation the team was left in by AJ Smith.

    While I may be resigned to our team being mediocre, as mistakes of the past are corrected, it doesn't mean I'm happy with it. This new regime is only just getting started, I like what I've seen and the direction they appear to be headed. So if we have a rough year while the kinks get worked out I might not be excited about it (losing sucks) but I can surely understand.

    Blue's point (in a nutshell) wasn't that Goodman couldn't be replaced or shouldn't be replaced (I should know I went a few rounds with him on the very subject myself) but that if we didn't have a proper or upgraded replacement for him, why cut him? I don't think it's fair to say people have unreasonable hate for the guy, but I did get his point and see it's validity. Apparently the coaches think he can be replaced and they've made the change. Whether or not they (or those of us who wanted Goody gone) are right won't be proven for a few weeks yet - we shall see. I'm optimistic on the matter.
     
  24. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Nothing there to really disagree with. I just find it interesting that many people think we'll be worse off than last year. Based on the current roster, I don't see how we're worse off..... injuries are always the unknown factor.

    Sure, we had Ingram last year, but he did precious little in his first season (like Liuget). We had more depth at NT, but Thomas seems ready to start, so if he stays healthy, I don't see a big drop off there (Franklin was decent, but old). Cason was Cason, and Jammer had lost a step. Did we really lose anyone on defense that was that important? I don't see it (other than expectations of Ingram having a good year).

    On offense, we lost Vasquez, but added Dunlap and Fluker. That's still a net upgrade, since Gaither didn't play hardly at all last year (shocker). Clary, despite his many detractors, still gives us better depth because in a pinch he can still slide over to RT. We didn't have that last year. Harris is another year along in his development, s0 he's better than he was. Green wasn't very good at all at RG. Rinehart is an upgrade.

    Our backfield consisted of Mathews, Battle, Brown, Brinkley, McClain and for the most part. Battle contributed very little, and McClain wasn't a factor. We've added Woodhead and Fozzy, while subtracting Battle and Brinkley. That's still an upgrade in my view.

    The WRs consisted of Floyd, Meachem, Royal, and Spurlock at the beginning (Brown hurt early). We didn't add Alexander until the halfway point. This year, we don't have Alexander, but we've jettisoned Meachem, while adding TuTu to the mix. Having Floyd, Brown, Royal, Allen, and TuTu is better than what we started with last year.

    Last year's TE group had experience, but Gates, Rosario, McMichael, and Green (rookie), isn't better than what we have now. Gates has gotten in better shape, and looks faster. Green (who hardly saw the field then) looks to be a possible difference maker. Phillips looks like a solid player, replacing McMichael's blocking skills, while still having some pass catching ability. While only three this year, I think it's a stronger group overall.

    I could go on (and on), but Im sure I've bored enough people already. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
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  25. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    All I want is what's best for this team...... and that includes replacing Goodman. The players that give us the best chance to win is what every fan should want. I don't have "favorites" like some fans, but I don't see everything as black or white either.

    I said that Goodman would make the roster, because we didn't have anyone who could replace both his return and coverage skills on special teams (we didn't). And I was proven correct, he did make the final roster cut. They had to go out and get a special teams ace to make Goodman expendable. Once there was a player to replace Goodman's coverage duties, then Fozzy was free to take over the return duties. Despite the protestations of some people around here, I wasn't wrong.
     
  26. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    First of all I completely disagree, I think that is exactly what has been voiced not only in this thread but many times in the past by everybody I just named. Obviously they would like to see this team to be better than mediocre, but where the disconnect happens is when they stand steadfast against any and ALL CHANGE...change that is necessary to move forward. Why? Because as all of them have reminisced before they..."remember the old days when 8-8 would have been a blessing."

    Secondly Goodman was awful, and he was released....as in past tense. That would lead me to believe that the brass think we do have a better option, which isn't saying much at all. So the continued defense of this bad player confounds me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  27. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Wow! Matty! Here I'd been making fun of Steven, the "Meachem was a 3rd best receiver coming out of high school"
    guy, but you're making him look like a master logician by comparison.

    I was seriously trying to decide whether to waste any time correcting all of your mistakes
    (for God's sake, who tries to play the "I must have higher standards" card right after being reminded that you're known for
    repeated abuse of it when you have no real argument. It never made sense and it still doesn't)
    .
    Do you genuinely not understand that people can disagree with you on how to field the
    best team, or is the upside-down "Matty wants it more than fans who've stuck with the team much longer"
    accusation just a macro on your computer?
    A turd that can be launched with a single key stroke default whenever you realize you have no ammunition?

    I'm trying to follow your logic: Any time Matty decides that a player is substandard (whether facts and/or stats
    support that idea or not)
    anyone who suggests that the team might not be improved by immediately dumping
    the target of Matty's ire (again, whether or not Matty's hunch holds up to any scrutiny), that person will be
    accused of not caring as much as you? Really? No...really?!?

    Since you named me, specifically, the obvious thing to do is to ask you to back up your claim, you know,
    compel you to show somewhere, ANYwhere that I said that I am "...against any and ALL CHANGE..."

    Of course, we both know you can NOT demonstrate any such thing: It's a tacky straw man that can not
    be found (in words or spirit) in any of my 1,573 posts. I can say so with zero fear of contradiction,
    because your deliberate mischaracterization is soooo far from any position I've ever held or advocated.

    I'm not a Goodman fan. Was glad to see him go. But that will only be a good move if whoever replaces
    Goodman does better. Blue was right: Goodman's numbers are far from "awful," though you slip effortlessly
    to that irrational extreme. You seem to think that releasing Goodman is some kind of automatic win.
    I have no idea why. The Chargers have released LOTS of guys over the last 4 years, and we also have a much
    weaker team than we did then, so obviously, knee-jerk releasing guys only works if they're replaced with
    superior guys. That --OVERALL--is obviously not what has happened in recent Charger history!

    I have no idea who you imagine might be advocating "...retaining poor players..."
    ("Clary, Jammer, Spikes, or Cason" in your words). This looks like another straw man. As self-congratulating as Monday morning quarterbacking can be, an honest person acknowledges that it's hard to know if releasing a guy will come back to bite you. How many here think we may've made a mistake re. Antonio Cromartie? Or Brees? Or Sproles? Or Welker? Or Carney? (etc. And no, I'm not the PFT poster bellowing "the stupid Chargers who blew all of those"
    ...just de-pantsing this ridiculous fantasy that everyone knows who the "poor players" are who must be released.

    Matty I know you think you know the game better than most (didn't you once refer to your YouTube watching
    as "research" ?)
    :rolleyes: But there's a lot of folks on here that know a bunch...I don't give a damn if you see eye to eye with me
    on Goodman or Cromartie or Mathews, etc. But you really need to abandon this absurd notion
    --when others don't immediately grab the pitchforks and torches whenever you declare some Charger a bum--
    that they are complacent or "settling" for less. The grass is always greener...dumping Goodman is satisfying,
    but if the return numbers don't improve, it will also have hurt the team. Time will tell. I'm not celebrating yet.
     
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  28. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    You should go back and look through your own list. In the last 33 years, since the league extended the season to 16 games, the Chargers have won 5 games or less 7 times. They won more games than than 5 in 1990 when they had Mark Vlasic and Billy Joe Overthrow as their starting QBs. Hell, last year's team won 7 games. You really think this year's team is going to be worse?
     
  29. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Looking at the schedule, you'd think that 5 wins would be the bare minimum.

    The Raiders look worse than last year, so I can't see the Chargers losing to them this season. That's 2 wins right there. The Chiefs may be improved, but they're still an unknown. 2 wins last year was damning, no matter what personnel you have. You might lose in Arrowhead, but I could see the Chargers winning at home. That's 3 wins. We don't play the Broncos until late in the year, so there's no telling what injuries may befall us (or them) by then. Most likely we'll get swept, but we might surprise and pull the home game out. Still the betting odds say we lose both.

    Outside the division, we have a fairly tough schedule, but we do play the Jags and the Dolphins. The Jags are awful, and do the Dolphins even have a legitimate QB? We should win both games. That gets us to 5 wins.

    If you look at the rest of the opponents, you would say going in that we wouldn't be favored. But, when is the last time that a team lost every game they weren't picked to win?..... (the Chiefs being the exception). Odds alone would suggest that we pull out at least one or two of the remaining games. Therefore, 6-7 wins is not at all unrealistic. The team may surprise though. If the young players gel quickly, and the team avoids further catastrophic injuries, then the team could win even more games..... possibly going 9-7. We'll need a bit of luck for a change, but it's not a crazy notion.
     
  30. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    We were a 7 win team last year and could have been a 10 win team if we didn't shut down in 3 games after the half time, although while Freeney is the only household name addition that was brought in, we added some sneaky good players and subtracted a bunch of the lesser talent.

    Even though this team is very young (averaging @25 yrs old) there is a learning curve, I think this team (defense especially) can be pretty exciting, with a lot of energy.

    We all laughed and made jerk off gestures (If that is offensive, I apologize) when guys like John Phillips, Fozzy Whitaker, King Dunlap, and Chad Rinehart were signed, some more than others. But all those guys have done nothing but impressed so far. I feel Telesco has a keen eye for talent and truly feel he put together a very young, cheap yet talented roster with what he had to work with. I think he isn't finished either. But it is clear he and McCoy put the best 53 roster they could.

    I have faith in what they have done so far, are we super bowl bound? No! are we close? not yet! but a couple pieces away could do the trick.

    Pound for pound looking at our current roster and the Ravens super bowl roster last year, were they honestly leaps and bounds superior to what we have now? or did they just get hot at the right times.
     

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