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Chargers @ Vikings pre-season game 3 thread...

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by matilack, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. Blue Bolt
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    Hey, I'm all for replacing him if we have someone better. At present, we do not....... Sorry, Novak.

    I was a fan of his mother though. ;)

    [​IMG]
  2. Blue Bolt
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    More of a bed wetting issue....... he's had a year off to get his head straight. I hope he did something about it.
  3. Joy Division
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    Joy Division Slightly-known Member

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    1. I like both of them.
    2. Kaeding is still the most accurate kicker in the history of the NFL.
    3. Novak has never had the opportunity to win or lose a game in the playoffs.
    4. If you look at the big picture, kickers don't win or lose games by themselves.
    5. I'd be happy with Novak.
    6. I prefer Kaeding.
    7. I like posting responses with lists for some reason.
    8. The arguments agains Kaeding are like saying you'd prefer Whitehurst in the playoffs over Rivers
    because Rivers has lost playoff games and Whitehurst is undefeated in the playoffs (having never played
    in one).
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  4. Ikeman83
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    I've never said that I preferred Novak. Also, the argument is different, because a kicker makes or breaks himself on a single play, whereas a QB's influence is over a series of them. Subtly different.
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  5. rickochey
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    rickochey BoltTalker

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    Takeo Spikes shouldn't play in any playoff games either. He might forget how to tackle, pass deflect, rush, etc.
  6. rickochey
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    rickochey BoltTalker

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    I sure hope this is one topic I can say,"You guys are right about Nate being the man in the playoffs" because if it is the other way around it will be "I told you so' and another wasted season.
  7. Lancer 1
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    No it wasn’t, and the score was tied so had Nate missed, we likely go to overtime & take our chances. I bring it up, because it is exactly the kind of “clutch” situation that Kaeding’s critics assert that he always folds under (time winding down, long kick to win the game) and even though it wasn’t a playoff game, the stakes were pretty high. It was late in December, the win gave us the divisional title and were also competing with the Bengals for postseason seeding. Had we lost to them, we still may have made the playoffs but definitely not as the #2 seed with a week off to rest so it was a pretty consequential game, and Nate won it for us with a clutch kick.
    Everyone has their own definition of exactly what “clutch” means and exactly who qualifies to be considered as such.

    Whenever Kaeding’s numerous critics point out the fact that that he rarely if ever kicks a field goal to win the game as time winds down, I’ll point out that for his entire Chargers career, we’ve been an offensive juggernaut with several future Hall of Famers whose games rarely if ever come down to a last second FG attempt – in those times that they do, lots of other things have often gone very wrong (offensive turnovers, stupid & ill-timed penalties, ect) but when searching for a scapegoat, many often just settle on Nate Kaeding and suggest that had he just done his job, (totally absolving everyone else involved in the catastrophe) everything would’ve turned out just peachy for us.
    So is throwing the ball to one of your teammates and not an opponent, yet QBs still throw interceptions – are they all bums?

    It is also the “job” of the Head Coach, Offensive Coordinator & the offensive unit of a team to get their placekicker as close as possible, improving the odds of a successful conversion – is it Kaeding’s fault that our offense is usually so proficient that most of his attempts are of the shorter nature?

    For the record, he has also shown a remarkable consistency from 50 yards & beyond as well, despite the fact that he rarely gets such chances.
    No, blowing it makes one human, and we humans are imperfect beings who do fail on occasion, some more often than others.
    As mentioned before, it is the objective of the offense to get their kicker real close and make the attempt as short as possible, raising the chances that it will be successful. This was demonstrated by the Jets in 2004 when after Nate missed the 40 yard attempt, they advanced the ball so deep into our territory that Doug Brien beat us with a 28 yard field goal but I guess that shouldn’t count, because the attempt was so short.

    If it makes you happy though, the 3rd of the impressive 4 field goals that Kaeding kicked in the AFC Championship Game was a 40 yarder, but I’ll bet you don’t consider that good enough because we didn’t win the game. I supposed if we had won that game by a score of 15 -12 or something, then Nate would be a hero? He did all he possibly could that day, he successfully converted on all of his attempts yet gets no credit for coming up big in the most important game to date in his entire career, simply because the rest of the team could not seal the deal & secure the victory.
    See my above comment about the 2007 AFC Championship Game – I’ll also submit that making 6 consecutive field goals over the span of 3 different postseason games, (two of them on the road) would qualify as “demonstrating one’s self to be a clutch kicker in pressure situations in the playoffs” but because we only won 1 of those games, I guess none of that production even matters. If you prefer to cling to the memory of the times that he’s failed in such situations, that is definitely your option.

    I do have a possible solution for the whole “distance” argument with regards to field goals though, why not make the point total commensurate with the distance of the attempt? My proposal:​

    20 yards or less – 1 point
    21 – 30 yards – 2 points
    31 – 60 yards – 3 points
    61 yards or more – 4 points​

    That would add some real excitement to the game, would it not? It would also cut down on the shorter attempts in regulation but I know that in an overtime situation in which any point scored will win the game, teams will continue to try get their placekicker as close as humanly possible before attempting any kick.​
  8. Ikeman83
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    The Cincinnati game continues to be irrelevant, because it wasn't in the playoffs. No one, ever, has said that Kaeding isn't a fantastic regular season kicker.

    The AFCCG was not a situation of "clutchness," as he wasn't kicking a game winner or game tie-er, which is, again, the point, which you continue to miss.

    Being "Clutch" entails being able to do something difficult consistently, regardless of the circumstances, assuming you can do it consistently at all. Kaeding is very accurate, but not at all clutch. If the game is in Kaeding's hands, he chokes, period. The previous record holder for accuracy, Mike Vanderjagt, was also a "clutch" choker. He simply couldn't kick the kicks that had to be made, in spite of his accuracy dominance in the broader scheme of things.

    If you wish to state that Kaeding is accurate, no one can dispute that. If you wish to say that Kaeding is good in pressure situations, you can probably provide a legitimate argument to that effect (which, btw, you have done). However, you have not, nor can anyone demonstrate, that Kaeding is clutch with a playoff game on the line. If it's 4th and less than 8 from outside of the opposing 21 in the playoffs, the Bolts should probably just go for it, rather than leaving the game to Nate's foot.
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  10. Joy Division
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    I never said you preferred Novak either, in fact that post wasn't addressed to anyone specifically.
    With that being said...

    1. The Rivers fumble against the Chiefs was one play.
    2. Kickers also kick off...a bad kick out of bounds gives an opposing team
    great field position..and can be crucial if it's late in a game...influence.
    3. Kickers often attempt more than one field goal per game....more influence.
    4. Miss an XP? Games have been lost because of this...more influence.
    5. Kickers make or break themselves over a series of kicks during a game and not just with one kick.
    6. Rivers missed a clutch snap against the Chiefs and it was a make or break play. We broke. No playoffs for you! Come back, one year! Next!
    7. My point? It's obvious that Nate is our kicker unless he steps on his labia again on the first play of the season.
  11. rickochey
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    rickochey BoltTalker

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    :eek::cautious:

    :unsure::cautious:

    :(
    :inlove:

    :(
    :rolleyes:
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  12. Lancer 1
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    As evidenced by last season, if you don’t win enough regular season games, then you never even get the chance to succeed or fail in the postseason, because you’re watching those games from the comfort of your couch.

    The real reason that you don’t like to credit Nate for his clutch, game winning 52 yard kick that won the game with mere seconds remaining because it puts the lie to your asinine theory that he just cannot succeed in pressure, live or die situations just like that. We both know that had he missed that kick, you & other critics would pounce & accuse him of choking in a pressure situation, citing that missed opportunity to win the game as an example.

    You’re really reaching to the point of absurdity to maintain that coming up big (like Keading did) in a game that offers a trip to the Superbowl as it’s prize to the winner somehow isn’t clutch, simply because 3 or the 4 field goals were of the shorter nature and because the rest of the team could not secure the victory. As mentioned before, Nate did everything he possibly could that day, and successfully converted on all of his attempts but you’re so desperate to paint him as some kind of abject failure, that you cannot even bring yourself to credit him for doing the job in the most important game he has played in to date.

    Kicking a field goal is challenging at any level of play, but most difficult of all in the NFL (which could be why most kickers tend to bounce around from team to team) and Nate Kaeding is still the most accurate kicker in NFL history, and is nearing a decade with the team that originaly drafted him. He has succeeded more often than he has failed, even in the postseason and that sounds a lot like your description of “clutch”. It’s not good enough though, is it? You & many other expect him to be absolutely perfect, and no one ever is.

    The Wild Card game against Indy in 2008 was definitely “in his hands” with less than 2:00 to go & we needed a field goal to tie, and Nate didn’t choke under the weight of that situation.

    Nate Kaeding has only played for 2 NFL Head Coaches, and both of them felt enough confidence in him & his well demonstrated abilities to send him out to attempt field goals in playoff games that would each tie his career long, if successful. (53 yards against NE in 2006, and 57 yards against NYJ in 2009)

    Both Marty & Norv have observed Kaeding alot more than any of us, and the confidence they show in him with important games and perhaps their very jobs on the line speaks volumes.

    Another example: Nate broke his plant leg in the 2nd to last regular season game of the 2007 season and the Bolts added another placekicker to our roster (Dave Rayner) for the postseason run. If there was ever a great excuse to replace this so-called “choker” and to have someone else attempt the kicks for us in the playoffs, a broken leg was definitely it but Norv still called on Nate to attempt every single playoff field goal, which in the end amounted to 7 attempts in 3 games, and he successfully converted on 5 of them, to include the final 4.
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  13. rickochey
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  14. Ikeman83
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    False. I've never said anything of the kind. My contention is that Nate is not clutch when it comes to making difficult, game-winning kicks in the post-season. If you want to see a clutch kicker, look at Adam Vinitieri from 2001-2005.

    It was a 26 yd FG, which, although indeed made in a pressure, game-winning situation, it was not a difficult kick.

    I'm sorry, has anyone said that he doesn't make kicks? No, the contention is that he doesn't make game-winning/tying kicks in the postseason. Which is why these points of yours, along with Kaeding's performance in the preseason, are completely irrelevant to whether or not he's improved on his "Achilles Heel" of choking when it counts in the postseason.
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  15. Joy Division
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    So the alternative is...go with Novak? The guy who is finding it difficult to get a starting
    job anywhere in the NFL?
    Makes sense to me.
  16. Lancer 1
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    Exactly how many of those opportunities has he had in his entire career? One, in his rookie season against the Jets on a rain slicked field. He was only the 2nd rookie in NFL history to attempt a game winning FG in the postseason.

    The rushed 53 yarder he attempted against the Patriots 2 years later would’ve only tied that game, it wouldn’t have won it.
    He’s had a lot of early success, which is why a lot of people are still on his jock, but what has he accomplished lately? He missed a 29 yarder that would’ve beaten us in 2007, and the last time his team advanced to the Superbowl (Indy against the Saints) Vinitieri did not even play because he was a “healthy scratch” – real clutch, and dependable too!
    If he had missed it, our season would’ve ended right then and since kickers miss extra points on occasion, no NFL kicking attempt is easy. It’s not as if the Colts didn’t run their very best “FG block” play in that critical situation.
    As mentioned before, it’s not as if he has had all that many opportunities (4 in his entire 9 year career) but I’m amused how you keep adding “qualifiers” (the kick must win or tie the game, and it must have been in the postseason, because a 52 yard game winner as time expires late in the regular season that wins a division somehow doesn't count) because I can easily cite numerous examples when Nate has come through when needed, even in the playoffs.
    It “counted” in the Wild Card Game against the Jets in 2004, when Nate successfully converted on his 1st career postseason attempt, a 35 yarder late in the 4th Quarter to bring us to within 7 points of tying the game & sending it to overtime. (Which we later did, on a Brees to Gates 1 yard pass – quick question, was that pass too short to really matter?)

    It “counted” in the AFC Championship Game when Keading successfully converted on all 4 of his attempts. (Achieved with a broken plant leg and in snowy conditions, making the feat all the more impressive)

    It “counted” in the Wild Card Game the following postseason when Nate successfully converted on his only attempt late in the 4th Quarter against the Colts, tying the game and sending it to overtime.
    It “counted” in the Divisional Round Game the following week at Pittsburgh when Keading successfully converted on his only attempt, for his 6th consecutive playoff field goal made.

    No “Achilles Heel of choking” in any of those situations or results now, was there? I didn’t think so…
  17. Ikeman83
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    He's had 4. I think sending a game into overtime clearly counts, do I have to write a dissertation for you on what being clutch is?

    Irrelevant, during the time period I mentioned, he was the most clutch kicker ever, and it won the Patriots many playoff games, and as I recall, 2 of their Superbowls were decided by his leg.

    Correct, our season would have ended right there, but "not easy" does not directly correlate to "difficult". A sub-30 yard kick is one you can reasonably expect to go in, every time, just like a PAT. This is why when kickers blow the PAT, it's hilarious and totally unexpected, and often on ESPN. This is why I get to watch Carney miss against Jacksonville at least once a week on ESPN America, btw

    I haven't added qualifiers. I've had to go into more detail to explain the concept of what being clutch in the playoffs is, since you continue to fail to grasp it.

    In the sense that the balls went through the uprights and we got points as a result, yes they counted, but none of those were clutch kicks.

    You're almost as adorable as Nate's face when he realizes that he has to make a clutch kick in the postseason. I really can't fathom how/why you cannot grasp how a player can be excellent, without being clutch. I just don't. You continue to describe situations in which Nate performed well, yet where he was not required to be clutch (or you jump on an example where it wasn't in the postseason, which is irrelevant because Nate has never had problems converting kicks in the regular season), and use them as examples to defend his inability to come through in the postseason when the game hinges on his abilities. That's were he chokes, every time. Of course there was no choking in any of those situations, none of them describe the phenomena that is Nate Kaeding's inability to tie/win games in the postseason by making kicks which he routinely makes in the regular season.

    At this point, you're ignoring not only reality, but also, and more importantly to me, the rationale of my arguments. I feel like I'm explaining to you that the Earth is round, and you're telling me that we live on the back of a giant cat, which bounds relentlessly through space around the sun.
  18. ETicket
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    Yeah, don't worry about things like wisdom, continue to let your boobs get you through life.
  19. Dublin Bolt
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    I've the 4th Quarter still to watch but to kinda get back to what the thread was about instead of the Nate v Nick debate;

    I agree with Ray, the O line is dire. Not only is Harris not ready, Molk took a big step back for me tonite (have really high hopes for this guy), and even Vasquez and Clary struggled where they should not have. I have to wonder what it is like reviewing game tape in the O line room. Jeeeeez if I'm Sullivan I'd have no voice. Atrocious.

    Loved seeing Larry English, finally, get some good gametime and get in on the action. Fingers crossed he gives back what the team deserves from him.

    I take Willie over Goodman now. Meachem, why did you not catch that ball?.

    Cam Thomas looks like his Cromartiesque activities in the bedroom might be distracting him somewhat, the guy was manhandled all nite. Rocket needs to be inserted in his asz. Liking Liuget, he is starting to get it and might end up being a v good 3-4 DE. Our corners still worry but strangely enough I am liking Gatson some more. This guy might have a chance. Speaking of corners having a chance thought of this ages ago but forgot ask what happened to that corner we had on the PS out of Minnesota last year?, name escapes me at mo.
  20. Lancer 1
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    As mentioned before, everyone has their own belief & description as to exactly what “clutch” is, and exactly who qualifies to be referred to as such.
    Actually, all 3 of the Superbowls that the “Cheatriots” won were by 3 point margins. Viniteri has had a nice run, but seems to be just another “guy” now who is currently on his 2nd NFL team, and could not be counted on when his current team last played in the biggest game this sport has to offer. The Colts have lost the last 3 playoff games he has kicked in, to include twice to San Diego but Viniteri was 5 for 5 over the span of those 3 games. I don’t blame him for his teams losses, he did all he could just as Nate Kaeding did when he hit on 6 in a row, but we still lost 2 of those 3 playoff games.
    One can never assume anything in sports, which is why the MLB makes a pitcher actually throw the 4 wide pitches on an intentional walk – every now & then, one of them screws it up & throw one away.
    You most certainly did – in your 1st post in this thread, you stated that Nate’s big problem was clutch kicking in the postseason. I quickly provided several examples in which he made successful kicks in clutch situations in the playoffs, then you claimed that he had missed all of his attempts to win or tie a game in the postseason so I reminded you of how he tied our Wild Card game against the Colts, but you tried to dismiss that accomplishment simply because the FG was of the shorter nature, even though it fit right into the very situation that you had described as “clutch” (time winding down, make the kick or lose the playoff game) before you knew that Kaeding had already done just that, so then you started dropping in qualifiers like how the kick must win the game, it cannot be too short or it’s not that great an achievement, ect.
    That is your opinion, I happen to disagree.
    Once again, it’s all subjective and based on your opinion, mine differs – I cannot dispute the fact that I am quite adorable though, I just can’t help that.
    I’ve previously provided examples of when the outcome of postseason games hinged on Kaeding’s performance in which he did come through (the AFC Championship Game & the Wild Card Game against the Colts are 2 examples) but you can’t seem to comprehend that concept.
    I’m quite immersed in reality, Kaeding has been entrusted with the outcome of some of our games, and at times he’s failed but other times, he’s succeeded. The latter is something that his critics don’t like to admit, but it’s quite factual.
  21. Lancer 1
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    I agree about the O-line, it’s not looking good and it’s hard to imagine it all magically coming together for a bunch of guys who have scarcely if ever played together this entire preseason, in the short amount of time left before the games start to count.

    English is looking good right now, but we’ve seen flashes from him in the past and I’m not holding out hopes of a dominant season from him until I see him stay healthy & sustain this performance for awhile. If he can, great for us and our defense will be all the better!

    I like what Mike Willie is currently showing us, and I’m not worried at all about Meachum – he’s a veteran WR with a Superbowl ring, and him & Philip will click like clockwork before too long. Willie probably makes the team since we’re down a WR in Brown, and once Vincent comes back Willie can probably clear waivers & go to our practice squad, unless he catches about 4 or 5 touchdown passes before VB returns in which case, we shouldn’t even risk waiving him or he would be claimed.
  22. Ikeman83
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    4th and 2. Chargers have 2 timeouts, opposing team has none. 45 seconds left in the AFCCG, ball on the 34 yd line (51 yard FG), Chargers down by 2. Do you trot out Kaeding?
  23. Buck Melanoma
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    Yep
  24. Ikeman83
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    And if the other team has 1 TO to ice Kaeding with? :-D
  25. Buck Melanoma
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    yep
  26. Ikeman83
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    4th and 1 from the 35?
  27. Buck Melanoma
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    yep
  28. Ikeman83
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    Apparently you enjoy more optimism with regard to Kaeding's clutchness compared to Rivers' clutchness than I do.
  29. Buck Melanoma
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    I play the overall percentages. They tell me to kick the FG.
  30. Ikeman83
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    So you'd trust Kaeding to kick a 52 yard game-winner in a playoff game more than you'd trust Rivers to get 1 yard?

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