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Did we just suffer our biggest blow of the year? Acee says Norv and AJ may be safe...

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by matilack, Jan 1, 2012.

?

Would you rather have...

  1. Beat the Raiders, and have Norv return for 2012?

    35.7%
  2. Lost to the Raiders, and have Norv fired.

    64.3%
  1. Dublin Bolt
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    Dublin Bolt BoltTalker

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    Is that fact?, really?, WOW...

    Amazing to think that you'd have hoped for a loss to the Raiders of all opponents. I'd love to picking at 11 over 18 bigtime.
  2. Shumway
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    Shumway BoltTalker

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    I'm not a Chargers expert, or historian, but I do love the Chargers, so feel free to take this reponse however you please.

    I disagree with you on this one Lance. I think Norv has been 'somewhat adequate'. It seems quite apparent that he's not a great coach and I certainly feel he's a big part of the problem. Sure, you can quote his winning percentage, but if you quote it in isolation and ignore the context, you're susceptible to missing the point. Just as you argue that the 14-2 season is a too simplistic view of the squad he inherited, the 61% winning percentage is too simplistic to suggest he has been successful. Clearly, it'll always be a grey area becuase there are too many variable and subjective judgements to provide a definitive view.

    To me, the bottom line is that this team is too inconsistent, prone to silly mistakes and soft. And I think that all reflects very poorly on the coach. I think the 4-1 finish shows that the talent level is not too bare.

    In response to your specific responses: 1) Gates and LT were a year older but Gates was harly over the hill and Rivers was just starting to enter his prime. Others such as VJ, Castillo, Merriman should also have been developing (I know that things have changed over 5 years, but that's the transient nature of sports - a coach has to be able to adapt to a changing roster etc). Agree that the change of co-ordinators means we needed to expect some transition - but I think this judgement is based on the last few years decline not Norv's first year (in fact, I was skeptical of the hiring, but when we won playoff games, I was excited at the prospect I was wrong)
    2) Agree that Norv's percentage shows he's had some success, and I see some validity in the point, but overall I think its too simplistic to view his winning percentage in isolation as noted above.
    3) Another good point, but it's certainly possible that Philip is too close to the situation to really be objective about it. Norv and Philip have been through a lot together and that can build a very strong bond - even to the point that it may cause Philip's judgement to be skewed.
    4) A replacement may or may not be better - there's no guarantees in this game (and that applies whether we keep Norv or not). But again it comes down to a judgement, are the Chargers a well coached team? And if you don't believe they are, you've gotta take a shot at getting in a better position, don't you?
    Hope that all makes some sense.
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  3. DenverBolt67
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    DenverBolt67 BoltTalker

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    Norv's record is a direct reflection of a terrible division since we have a losing record against teams with a winning record since Norv was hired
  4. Buck Melanoma
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    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    If Dean would actually make a commitment to winning & the fans understood/saw that, he wouldn't lose those sales.

    Oh wait .... this isn't Pittsburgh.
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  5. DenverBolt67
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    DenverBolt67 BoltTalker

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    Totally agree. If fans trust their org and the direction of the org, they can handle down years without freaking out
  6. Concudan
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    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Most fans will return. If Norv and AJ are kept they will gnash their teeth, shake their fists, then ante up next season. Some wont. Others will get their tickets... There will be blackouts, until the Bolts start winning again.
  7. matilack
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    matilack #therealagent47

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    The draft pick was just a side note, a little cherry on top of the **** pie.

    I'd have rather lost any one of those last 4 wins if it meant getting Norv out of here.
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  8. Concudan
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    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Amazing....
  9. SDRaiderH8er
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    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    I am not, and I was talking with the Office about buying 2 more seats. I WOULD have bought 4 seats! And there will be more blackouts! Those seats that WERE purchased by season tickets holders last season NOW must purchased by walk ups.
  10. Concudan
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    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    I know some will walk away. Many wont. We have seen this in the past.

    I think AJ needs to go now, Norv... I would be willing to give him one more year without Manusky. But I definately would not spend your money for you. If I were to deside to purchase season tickets, it would not be next season unless something miraculous happened in the draft.
  11. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    While I don't support pretending that Norv is the reason the team didn't make the
    playoffs this season, I do realize that many casual fans are convinced of it...and there
    definitely would be some fan backlash if Spanos announces that Norv & AJ are both staying.

    How many season ticket holders would actually cancel? No one knows (not that that will stop blowhards
    from insisting they know). Surely it will be some. But in the end, winning is what sells tickets.
    If the Chargers secretly have a great coach lined up, that can improve on Norv's 61%
    winning percentage, that would be awesome. If not, and the Chargers revert to their customary
    sub .500 franchise record, they'll lose a lot more fans to 6-10 seasons than they would've to the Norv-haters.

    Again, this looks like the Tebow situation all over: Let the casual fans short-term desire push
    you to abandon your own better judgement, and you end up resting your franchise on a guy who
    throws for 60 yards in a do-or-die game. If Spanos similarly caves to the "NOT NORV!!" screamers,
    and the Chargers perform at a lower level (as EVERY SINGLE ONE of the Chargers' other 13 coaches has)
    he'll have himself to blame as ticket sales plunge...not because of who the coach is, but because
    those who were furious with winning 61% of the time won't even consider buying a ticket for a
    sub .500 team that goes a decade between playoff appearances (which is too familiar to long-time fans)
  12. DenverBolt67
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    DenverBolt67 BoltTalker

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    Yep
    http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/51322/2012-nfl-draft-order-after-week-17

    1. Indianapolis Colts 2-14 .539
    2. St. Louis Rams 2-14 .590
    3. Minnesota Vikings 3-13 .559
    4. Cleveland Browns 4-12 .531
    5. Tampa Bay Buccaneers 4-12 .551
    6. Washington Redskins 5-11 .477
    7. Jacksonville Jaguars 5-11 .500
    8/9. Carolina Panthers* 6-10 .504
    8/9. Miami Dolphins* 6-10 .504
    10. Buffalo Bills 6-10 .520
    11/12. Kansas City Chiefs* 7-9 .512
    11/12. Seattle Seahawks* 7-9 .512
    13. Arizona Cardinals 8-8 .469
    14. Dallas Cowboys 8-8 .473
    15. Philadelphia Eagles 8-8 .488
    16. New York Jets 8-8 .500
    17. Oakland Raiders 8-8 .504
    18. San Diego Chargers 8-8 .516
    19. Chicago Bears 8-8 .527
    20. Tennessee Titans 9-7 .563
  13. DenverBolt67
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    DenverBolt67 BoltTalker

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    It isn't a short term issue. fans have been evaluating Norv for 5 years now, and the team is going in the wrong direction since the year he was hired
  14. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    First off, I appreciate the tone of your response. :)
    1) I totally opposed Norv's hiring, and have never been a fan. But after watching him for 5 seasons, and
    listening to the players talk about him, I no longer see evidence that he's the monster I thought he was
    the day the Chargers hired him.
    2) I keep mentioning the 61% winning NOT to argue that he's good, but rather to poke the notion
    that of 14 Chargers coaches it seems kind of silly to declare the winningest one a horrible coach.
    3) It's possible Rivers is confused and/or deluded. I just think it's MORE likely that he understands the situation
    100x better than any of us here. Working in a Norv offense has made Rivers a viable H.o.F. prospect,
    in addition to it being--statistically--one of the best 2 or 3 NFL offenses over Norv's term.
    4) If I saw evidence that Norv was genuinely costing the Chargers games, I'd agree re. upgrading. But I think
    this year the Chargers were mediocre mostly because of player mistakes. If Rivers is merely his normal
    Rivers self, they win at least 3 of those losses...resulting in 11-5 or better, heading into the playoffs winning 4 of 5.

    Lastly, with regard to "silly mistakes" I think we tend to remember them when OUR team does them,
    and not so much when other teams do. You know how a racist has his prejudice reinforced whenever
    he sees someone from that race misbehave, but doesn't really notice when members of his race do the
    exact same thing? I think this is similar. What if Norv had been responsible for the horrible clock
    management that cost the Raiders a field goal Sunday? Or the two times in recent seasons when
    Belichick took risky 4th down chances...and failed? I could go on and on. But when Norv does mess up,
    it reinforces the popular "Norv's horrible" narrative. When the Chargers were hugely penalized for a couple of
    games, Norv-haters pounced on it as "proof" that Norv had an "undisciplined" team. I pointed out
    that, actually, Norv's Charger teams have been penalized much less than the league average.
    Wouldn't that--by their logic--'prove' that Norv has had well-disciplined teams? Silence.
    Doesn't fit the narrative.
    I'm not aware of any coach who used the replay 'challenges' more successfully than Norv this year.
    These are quantifiable things. Dispassionate, objective, measurable facts...that some people choose
    to ignore because they undermine their personal impressions.

    Don't get me wrong: I don't agree with everything Norv does. I was absolutely furious sitting in
    the Q the day they didn't try to score at the end of the half, against Denver. Letting Tebow hang around
    seemed so obviously foolish. I can point to lots of other times I've disagreed with individual Norv decisions.
    But the question is, objectively, does the guy really make more bad decisions than the average NFL coach?
    I don't think so.
    But I think he's held to a different standard, and judged more harshly, so yes, I think most
    casual fans are (wrongly) convinced that Norv doesn't know what he's doing.
    Again, I think it's the players who are more right on this one.

    Damn...this wasn't supposed to become a book. Anyway, just one sober, long-time fan's perspective.
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  15. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    2008 =

    2008 = 8 & 8
    2009 = 13 & 3

    I was one of those suckers who thought that that was "the right direction"


    p.s. I strongly opposed Norv's hiring, because I bought into the 'loser' label...not realizing how bad
    his Redskins and Raiders rosters had been. In short, like most coaches, Norv lost with bad teams, and
    won with a good one. That doesn't make him Bill Walsh...but it also doen't make him a good scapegoat
    for the thinking fan. I stand by my post.
  16. DenverBolt67
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    DenverBolt67 BoltTalker

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    What has happened since?
  17. SDRaiderH8er
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    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    Well that are staying, I wonder how many walk! I am going to wipe my rear end with the ticket renewal form and mail it back to them!
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  18. Concudan
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    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    LOL... I can totaly picture this... (now I am scarred for life BTW)
  19. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    So, you're revising from
    "the team is going in the wrong direction since the year he was hired" to
    "the team is going in the wrong direction since 2010" ?
  20. JohnnyX
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    JohnnyX Well-Known Member

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    Well you got want you wanted Lance. Both Norv and AJ are here to stay. Hope you guys like 6-10 cause that's what's going to happen next year.
  21. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Again, I've seen LOTS of 6-10 AND MUCH WORSE seasons over my 40+ years as a Charger fan.,
    so your baseless prediction doesn't exactly scare me.

    Interestingly, not ONE of those losing seasons was under Norv.
    Weird, huh?
  22. JohnnyX
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    JohnnyX Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter really cause at the end of the day it'll be without a SB. If this org wanted a SB they'd fire these guys. Just enjoy 6-10 cause it'll go down steadily each year until we reach full mediocrity.
  23. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Again, you're simply making up the "6-10" stuff...it has zero basis in fact, and indeed completely
    contradicts the 5 for 5 record Norv has here of being .500 or higher. Look, I get that you're
    cranky--lots of your pals here will be today--but that doesn't add a milligram of credibility
    to your prediction. We use the past to predict the future...not our butts. Out.
  24. Pointyearedog
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    Pointyearedog BoltTalker

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    I guess Mr. Spanos has made the call, and both AJ and Norv are:

    safe-umpire-pestcemetery.jpg
  25. matilack
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    matilack #therealagent47

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    Goody! Because going .500 has always been the goal.
  26. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Well, actually, MOST of his records have been over .500
    (though, through most of Charger history, .500 would have been a welcome improvement)
    but I'm glad to see that you're still on top o' your game re. clumsy 'Straw Man' attempts... ;)

    Gonna be a rough day for the pathologically anti-Norv crowd. I'll just chuckle, for the most part.
  27. matilack
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    matilack #therealagent47

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    HAHAHA SERIOUSLY?!?!....are you actually trying to convince me that going 8-8 should be our goal, and anything else is gravy? Super Bowl not a big deal for you?

    Lance, the word I have ready to describe you would get me banned. Hint: It starts with a "P" and ends with a "Y". I'm guessing you've never played an organized sport in your life.
  28. JohnnyX
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    JohnnyX Well-Known Member

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    Making it up?

    2010 - 9-7
    2011 - 8-8
    2012 - 7-9??

    You're right I'm off my a win in my calulations. 7-9 whoo!!!!!!! NO TEAM CAN BE BETTER AT 7 WINS. SB HERE WE COMEE
  29. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    So you respond to my complaint of you using a straw man...with ANOTHER straw man?!? Seriously?
    And you wonder why sometimes (like now) I just have to say "No more responses, silly Mat" ?
    Argue with yourself (easy enough...you're already making up MY side)

    (of course, I never said anything like the nonsense you tried to attribute to me. I'm in a lot more
    than you. I want a Super Bowl a lot more than you do. The difference is that I suffered through long
    droughts that made me really appreciate being in the hunt every year...NOT the norm in Charger history!!)
  30. Lance19
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    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Fortunately, calculations that come out of your butt have no bearing on reality.
    The last time the Chargers went 8-8, the predictions were that they'd go to 5-11
    (since 8-8 was a 3 game decline from the previous season's 11-5)

    But the Chargers went 13-3. THAT's the history.
    Of course, you seem to be happier with the stuff you pull from your butt...

    Unless you have a new (fact-based) angle...as opposed to made up stuff...no more from me on this.

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