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Official Browns post game thread

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Fouts, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    Come on, lighten up. The Chargers played their hearts out in the face of a terrible storm and almost won.
  2. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    yeah, they almost screwed our draft position. Thankfully, our own ineptitude prevented us from defeating the mighty Browns
  3. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    I still can't believe how close the Chargers kept this game in such tough conditions.
  4. SDRaiderH8er
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    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    Much like the Cincinnati AFC title game of 1982
  5. Joy Division
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    Joy Division Slightly-known Member

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    Meachem dropped an easy pass, uncovered down the middle of the field for a touchdown.
    A touchdown damnit! Can't even make the easy ones.
    That would have given the offense some confidence.
    Instead...they acted like every raindrop was battery acid.
    Pansies.
  6. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    All of you mole lovers can catch you life's love on TV tonight in Denver.
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  7. CoronaDoug
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    CoronaDoug Well-Known Member

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  8. CoronaDoug
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    CoronaDoug Well-Known Member

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  9. Pointyearedog
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    Pointyearedog BoltTalker

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    Why did the cameras keep showing Rivers yelling at someone, who was he jawing at? And where did that statement come from that quoted AJ and the problems within the organization?
  10. Holy_Bolt
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    Holy_Bolt Well-Known Member

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    LOL...not really!
  11. SuperCharger92
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    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    If Norv is gone, AJ is gone.

    Failed to re-sign Sproles.
    Failed to re-sign Turner.
    Failed to re-sign VJ.
    The way he handled Brees' situation.
    And of course, the firing of Marty and hiring of Norv.

    Every single one of those players have had success elsewhere.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    The bolt's would have 7 or 8 Lombardi's by now if they only kept brees.
  13. Boltzzz
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    Boltzzz BoltTalker

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    are you serious???? this team is F'ing pathetic, I am to the point where I expect this team to lose, we might not win 5 games this year!!!!
  14. Pointyearedog
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    Pointyearedog BoltTalker

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    If it got hot wherever you sat, wouldn't you start wondering if it was something that you were doing that was making things uncomfortable for you?
  15. Lancer 1
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    Lancer 1 BoltTalker

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    I don’t agree, AJ has done a job commensurate with other NFL General Managers, and has had his share of success. If he were let go, another organization would probably sign him as their GM. If & when Norv is eventually fired, he’ll probably be on the short list for any team looking for an Offensive Coordinator, but he won’t ever get another NFL Head Coaching job.
    Darren Sproles was making $7 million a year, and he was our backup running back. He was also fumbling a lot in his final 2 years with us.
    LT was only about a season or 2 removed from having been the NFL MVP. If we had let him walk in favor of “The Burner” at that point, there probably would’ve been riots all over San Diego county. Turner wasn't going to stay as our backup, with other teams offering him the opportunity to be the starter & be paid as such.
    VJ took the money & ran, and we signed about 4 or 5 other experienced veterans with the $55 million that he got from Tampa. It is also unknown whether any amount of cash would’ve kept VJ here, if he could make the same amount or more elsewhere.
    Drew Brees was injured but demanding superstar money, after having recently regressed to the point that we had the top pick in the draft for the 2nd time in 4 seasons, and before he actually was a superstar – we also had the high priced Philip Rivers waiting in the wings. We couldn’t keep them both long term, and at that point letting Brees walk and moving forward with Rivers was a no-brainer.
    AJ didn’t have the authority to fire Marty, or else he would’ve done it a lot sooner. That was the Owner’s decision, although hiring Norv does fall all on AJ.
    Free agency causes every NFL team to lose players that they would rather retain, but sometimes the finances to do so just aren’t there or some other team simply outbids them.
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  16. FCBolt
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    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    lol @ the last ditch AJ defense
  17. Scott the Rock
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    Scott the Rock BoltTalker

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    This!
  18. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    Bold, Sproles could've been signed to a long term contract reltively cheaply (like NO did), rather than FTing him TWICE.
    Red, VJ took the money and ran, after getting dicked around in 2010 and FTed in 2011. He should've been extended to an LTC midseason in 2009, but failing that, it was somewhat uncalled for to drop his RFA tender from 3.5 mil to 600k. That guaranteed that he would be playing elsewhere.

    I'm not going to argue the Brees situation, other than to say that after Dr. Andrews came out of the surgery and said, that went perfectly, that that might've been a sign that things were going to be ok for Brees. Rivers was on the team, however, and paying 2 QBs elite starter money is ridiculous.

    All of this is irrelevant, however, because the true sin of Smitty is the unbelievable neglect he's shown towards the Oline, and his inability to draft and retain one single starting caliber CB. AJ Smith built his rep on the 2004/5 offseason and has done literally nothing since. He's landed a few decent draft picks, but the overwhelming majority have been busts or "just guys". Did he draft Weddle? Yes, but instead of just doing it with our first that year, he blew our first, our 2nd, and our 2nd the following year, and I think something else but I can't recall, maybe our 4th? What's really telling is just looking at our roster and seeing how many good players we have who he drafted.

    Rivers - 2004
    Hardwick - 2004
    Brown - 2011
    (It's pretty sad that I have to move on to defense now)
    Butler - 10
    Reyes (looks good) - 12
    Ingram (looks good) - 12
    Weddle -07
    Liuget -11
    Martin -09
    Philips -04

    I mean, it's a little absurd. You could argue Mathews on the list. You could argue Hardwick off the list, but you're basically talking about 10-11 guys, of a total of 53. It's really no surprise at all how bad our team is.
  19. Lancer 1
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    Lancer 1 BoltTalker

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    At what price? He was still our backup running back, and would’ve remained as such. We’ve also added a few free agent signings in there like McMichael, Spikes, & others who we may not have been able to afford if we paid Sproles in a manner commensurate with the production we were getting from him in 2008 & ’09.

    Even if we had been able to extend him on the cheap, what would’ve kept him from holding out for more money after a good year or 2 ala VJ & McNeil?
    Hindsight is always 20/20, but if you recall back in 2009 VJ got his 2nd DUI and was also arrested for driving on a suspended license right before our playoff loss to the Jets, and in 2010 he was suspended 3 games for violating the NFL’s personal conduct policy.

    It would not have been a very sound business investment to throw the Brinks truck at a guy who was a mere 1 alcohol related incident away from possibly being suspended for an entire year, he had to prove that he could behave himself for awhile before getting the big bucks, so I don’t fault AJ for VJ leaving at all. I’m not saying we don’t miss him, but we definitely didn’t count on Meachum & Royal both going limp, or Vincent Brown getting hurt & missing at least 1/2 the season. The way Rivers is currently playing, having VJ on our roster even at $55 million probably wouldn’t help us all that much anyway...
    Agreed, and besides there was not a long list of teams clamoring for his services back then, even Miami passed on Brees in favor of Dante Culpepper & his rehabilitated knee.
    It’s not as if AJ has totally neglected the O-line. He drafted Marcus McNeil and got all he had to give out of him, along with drafting Louis Vasquez but he could not anticipate the long term injury to Nick Hardwick, or Kris Dielman’s seizure situation that led to him going on IR and then suddenly retiring. You subtract 3 Pro Bowlers from any team’s O-line and I guarantee that team will struggle a little offensively. AJ also brought in re-signed Jared Gaither, who like McNeil only started missing serious time with nagging injuries after he had been paid.

    As for corners, Jammer had been holding down the left side up until last season, and AJ did draft both Cromartie & Cason in the 1st round, and has also spent some lower round picks on cornerbacks as well. A Nnamdi Asomugha or Darrelle Revis doesn’t come around every year in the draft.

    Do you think we should’ve resigned Cro after his ‘ole with Shonn Greene approaching in the playoffs on that backbreaking 53 yard TD run? Antonio was a Pro Bowler, so he wouldn’t have come cheap and he didn’t for the Jets either.
    If AJ had drafted Weddle with our 1st round pick, everyone would’ve screamed “reach”! Look at all the heat he’s getting for selecting Larry English, whom Bill Belichick was also targeting at the time.
    Other teams are winning alot more often with similar or lesser talent – a lot of it comes down to coaching, and that has been a weakness for us under Norv (and Crosby, Manusky, ect.)
  20. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    Well, we paid 14 million for 2 years for him, and I believe he went to NO for 3 mil a year. We probably could've had him at 5 for 25, which would have been a cap advantage over those 2 F tags.

    VJ didn't want 55 mil until 2012. Prior to that he was looking for Brandon Marshall money, which was around 9.5 mil a season, but that was in Spring 2010. Prior to that he probably could have been had for a lot less money. Also, as was seen with Marshall, it's not hard to structure a contract to take into account player behavioral issues. As far as the bold, obviously the degradation of our line is a bigger issue, but seeing as we're paying 10 million a year in cap space for 2 receivers, both of which suck all the time, paying 10 mil for Jackson, who was dominate half the time even if he semi-disappeared the other half would've been worthwhile.


    Bold is utterly false. Marcus McNeil was drafted seven drafts ago. Nick Hardwick was drafted nine drafts ago. Kris Dielman was acquired as a UDFA 10 drafts ago. Since drafting McNeil in 2006, these are his draft selections on the O-line:
    T Stephen Schilling 6th 2011, Cory Clark 7th 2008
    G Johnnie Troutman 5th 2012, L Vazquez 3rd 2009, T. Green 4th 2009
    C David Molk 7th 2012

    Even if McNeil, Hardwick, and Dielman were all healthy and still playing, there's no one at RT or RG! These six linemen barely qualify as depth selections, let alone candidates to be starters. Vazquez and Green have both demonstrated a woeful inadequacy to be starting NFL O-linemen this season, as evidenced by the horrendous pressure up the middle. 6 years, and not one 1st or 2nd round pick.

    I think that maybe Smitty should have been more cautious about drafting a guy who had 3 kids by three different women at the age of 21. (or was it more?) The point on our CBs is that he's missed, epicly. He's missed four times. I'd rather have Cromartie on this roster occasionally missing tackles than have Cason getting torched every down. As far as Jammer goes, maybe it wasn't a wise strategy to count on a guy drafted in 2002 to be your starting LCB in 2012.

    They screamed reach when he drafted Davis, and they screamed reach when we traded up for Weddle anyway, so the net result would simply have been that we'd still have our all-pro safety but we might actually have gotten to use those 2 second round picks on something other than supplying talent to other teams.

    This is certainly a true statement, but where other teams are winning in spite of lesser talent, they typically don't have lesser talent on the offensive line. In fact, the position where every "good" team in the AFC has invested significantly less than us is at RB, and the position where every "good" team in the AFC has invested more than us is the line.

    Other than DMC and Spiller, I think we have the highest drafted RB in the AFC, and look at the company that puts us in. You can't win in the NFL if you can't block and tackle, and the people who do most of the blocking and tackling in this league are the front-7 and the line, which we've utterly ignored. It's one thing to ignore half of your football team if that means that you make the other half amazing, but when you miss on all of those picks you make while ignoring your line, you end up with a lot of talent black holes on your roster, which is precisely what we have.
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  21. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    I forgot the 3rd overall drafted RB of the 2-6 team that we just lost to.
  22. Brundlefly
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    Brundlefly Well-Known Member

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    Now now, let's not make it sound any better than it was. They were 1-6 when until they beat us ;)
  23. Lancer 1
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    Lancer 1 BoltTalker

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    Possibly, but once again, how much cash do you want to devote to a backup player (who Norv wasn’t using all that effectively in his final 2 seasons with us) and how do you guarantee that he doesn’t outperform his contract, and then hold out in search of a better one?
    I maintain that even extending VJ’s contract back then would’ve been foolish, he first had to show that he could behave. Miami gave Brandon Marshall the money he was seeking, and it didn’t work out all that well for them.

    I’m not yet ready to completely write off Robert Meachum & Eddie Royal as failed investments, especially after only ½ season. VJ looked like a bust in the early days as well, prompting us to acquire Chris Chambers at the trading deadline in 2007. Once Philip establishes the chemistry with Meachum & Royal that he had with VJ and currently has with Gates, either one or possibly even both of them could really come up big for us. As many misfires as we’ve seen between Rivers & Meachum (all of which were not Robert’s fault) we still beat Cleveland if he catches that pass & scores, we’re just that close to seeing great things from him, and possibly from Royal especially on punt returns.
    O-line has not been our most pressing need for the last decade as it’s kinda being insinuated. AJ had multiple Pro Bowlers up front, and was trying to add depth to that in addition to attempting to replace the production we were not getting on the other side of the ball, mainly after the injury prompted departures of both Jamal Williams & Shawne Merriman, and his enduring search for a competent starting safety.

    Right up until last season, Philip Rivers was always among the league leaders in TD passes & efficiency, and was always in consideration for OPOY and at times, even MVP. That would not have been the case if the O-line were as bad for as long as it is being speculated now.
    Regardless of your personal opinion of Louis Vasquez, he has been a starter on our line for his entire time here, barring a few missed games due to injury.

    Teams often spend their 1st round draft pick on their most pressing need, and O-line hasn’t been that for us, they were stocked with experienced talent & youthful depth. We selected guys like Mathews, Liuget & Ingram in the 1st round because the positions they played represented more pressing needs for us at the time they were selected.
    Antonio Cromartie had world class speed & a lot of talent when we drafted him, and he’s not a complete flop now. Drafting him was not a mistake, especially after he developed into a Pro Bowl player. None the less, keeping Cro would not have been cheap and exactly who in the locker room would’ve respected or listened to him after he pussed out in the playoffs? Trading him for a high draft pick was a shrewd move IMO, and Antoine Cason doesn’t get torched on every play. He has the occasional good games & impactful plays, he may be inconsistent but he doesn’t flat out suck.
    When Craig “Buster” Davis was drafted, I don’t remember anyone saying that he was a reach. We would’ve preferred Dwayne Bowe but he wasn’t available when we drafted and Buster was the other starting WR from the National Champion LSU Tigers – I don’t recall him having any injury issues back then, so it would’ve been impossible to predict that it would go the way it did for us with him.

    As long as it took for Weddle to develop into an All Pro player, had we spent a 1st round pick on him he would likely be considered as one of AJ’s draft failures – armchair GMs from far & wide would likely proclaim that we could’ve easily gotten him in the 2nd or even 3rd round, and still had a 1st round pick to spend on whomever had dominated in the NFL during that time.
  24. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    I'm going to respond to this, because I think the rest of what we're talking about is my opinion versus your opinion, and that isn't going anywhere, but this area is somewhat different. O line is always a pressing need. Your offensive line represents 25% of your starting players, and typically 1/5 of your roster. AJ had multiple probowlers up front, however Hardwick was far from a perfect player (injuries, lack of push when run blocking). Going into the 2010 season, he'd also been on the roster for 6 seasons. Dielman had been on the roster for 7, and McNeil had been on the roster for 4. Goff was released following the 08 season, and we drafted Clary in 2006. Vazguez might have been a starter, but he's hardly been adequate, and Clary, after 6 years on this team, still can't pass block anyone, and is not anything more than an "average" run blocker.

    Basically what we're looking at is this.
    RT has been ignored basically forever. I do not remember the last time this team had an acceptable starting RT.
    RG has been ignored since releasing Goff. Vazquez is not, and will not ever be, anything more than a backup.
    C was attended to in 2004. We've had an adequate solution at C, but with Dielman and Goff gone, Hardwick simply can't provide adequate blocking in the middle, especially against large NTs.
    LG was attended to in 2005 when Dielman took over for Fonoti. We were incredibly lucky with Dielman. Our backup at the position, Green, was a 4th round draft pick, and Smitty was hoping we'd get lucky with him. We didn't.
    LT is a more complex story. McNeil was a great LT, but I suspect that getting away from football during his holdout probably accelerated his decline. Either way, this started to be a problem in 2010 when he was gone for a while and we realized that we had nothing behind him. Our solution to this was signing Gaither off of waivers, which is fine, except that Gaither has a 50% attendance rate.

    Now, I can see Clary as being a b/u RT. I can see Green and Vazquez as being b/u guards. I can even see Vazquez being a starting guard if he had a good tackle next to him and the guard opposite was an elite level player. However, when your line goes from
    LT LG C RG RT to LT/LT LG C RG RT

    where dark green is very good, light green is good, yellow is average, and red is not starting quality, you have a real problem. The whole left side of this line changed in 2011, and because our whole investment in the line to that point had been a 3rd for Vazquez and a 4th for Green, we were screwed, and continue to be screwed to this day.

    Because we've completely ignored the RT position for a decade, we not only have a weak right side of the line, but we have no one to back up our LT in case of injury. Our line is worse now than it was in 2003, and I seriously doubt if anyone on our line would be a starter anywhere else in the league other than Hardwick.

    There has been literally zero talent development on this line for years, and although we have had good players on it, because we weren't developing anyone behind them by investing high picks on the line, we suddenly find ourselves SOL because we tried to do this on the cheap. Smitty decided during the 2007 draft that he was going to mortgage the future for the present, and traded future non-firsts to move up year after year, and with the majority of his 1sts going to the defense over this time, all that was left for the offense were 3rds and lower, and he only invested one of them in the line.

    Even if Dielman had not retired, it would be his 10th season. It is Hardwick's 9th season. It's Gaither's 7th. Are these guys just supposed to play forever? If Hardwick retires this offseason (likely), we'll have this for an oline:
    LT: FA acquisition going into his 8th year, misses many games due to chronic back injury

    LG: 4th round selection, going into his 5th year, not a starting caliber guard
    C: 7th round selection (assuming Molk), going into his 2nd year as a pro. will likely have never started a game
    RG: 3rd round selection, going into his 5th year, not a starting caliber guard
    RT: 6th round selection, somehow going into his 8th year as a pro, not a backup quality tackle.

    How can you look at that and seriously tell me that the line has not been completely ignored? This is the most important part of our team other than the QB position. THE MOST IMPORTANT. Waiting until after your probowl linemen retire/you get rid of them to replace them is the equivalent of waiting until after you run down 30 children at a school crossing to repair the worn out brakes on your car. It doesn't have positive consequences!

    Was Rivers well-protected up until the 2011 season, absolutely! But that doesn't mean that the line wasn't being ignored, it simply means that ignoring the line hadn't caught up with us until that point. The running over the school children moment happened on the Thursday night game versus the Raiders when Dielman and McNeil were both out and everyone realized, "whoops, we don't have anyone who can start on the left side of the line, and it now, somehow, is actually worse than the right side. Oh well, get in there Dombo!"

    I understand that you can't ignore your defense, nor should you attempt to have 5 1st round picks on your o-line. However, when your investments in your line over the last ten years involve 1 2nd round pick, 3 3rd round picks, and 1 4th round pick, with the overwhelming majority of the remaining investment being 7th rounders, you cannot honestly tell me that that constitutes a commitment to developing the line.

    The fact that Smitty compounded this 2nd highest of all football sins by missing on his defensive selections repeatedly (Castillo, English, Cason) or selecting players which failed to be long-term members of the team, even if they were initially successful (Cromartie, Merriman), means that of our last 10 years worth of 1st round picks, we have 1 scratch (I'll be generous and say that Sammy Davis wasn't his fault, generously), 6 players who are not on the team or suck, 1 elite player, one player who could be elite if he could stay on the field/not fumble, and 2 players for whom it's just too early to tell, although they look extremely promising.

    In other words, his draft "strategy" has not only completely depleted the O-line, but all we have to show for it are a QB, a DE, an OLB, and a Fumbling Machine (I mean RB).

    This is not a coincidence, this is not a surprise, and it's not excusable. We need a new GM who values the non-skill positions, and understands how to properly assemble a roster, not only for the present, but for the future. Hopefully the current team will suck badly enough that our new management will have some ammunition to work with in the coming offseason.
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