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Rivers confident of turnaround

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Blue Bolt, Jun 24, 2012.

  1. Blue Bolt
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    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Since when is 6 more INTs essentially the same performance? :confused:

    If Rivers had thrown 6 less picks last year, we would've been in the playoffs instead of the Broncos. Turnovers are a BIG deal. To say that Brees did as well as Rivers (in those two years compared) is highly suspect.
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  2. Ikeman83
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    You're absolutely right that turnovers are a big deal, and those passing stats also exclude that Brees fumbled the ball 8 times in 2005 to 3 times by Rivers in 2006. A big part of that was the addition of Marcus McNeil, who reduced a lot of blind-side sacks (I don't believe he gave up a sack until late in the regular season, though that may not be the case, as it was 6 years ago and I'm going from memory) compared to the aging Roman Oben. Dielman also become a much better player going into and over the course of the 2006 season.

    Look, I'm not, and have never said, that Rivers isn't a great QB. I have no idea where this hostility is coming from, or why people suspect that Brees couldn't have played as well on our 2006 team as Rivers did.
  3. Blue Bolt
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    5 more sacks is significant. 6 INTs + 5 fumbles = 11 more turnovers by Brees. That is an enormous difference.

    You say that the addition of McNeill and a maturing Dielman were a big help to Rivers, but that's hard to see from the stats you posted. Since Brees and Rivers both were sacked 27 times, it's hard to explain the 5 extra fumbles that Brees committed. The majority of the time a QB fumbles is when they are being sacked, since neither Brees or Rivers are running QBs.
  4. FCBolt
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    I'm no fan of Brees, but I put that more on Marty during the Brees years.
  5. Ikeman83
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    Fixed that for you.

    It's a chicken or the egg argument. Did LT get 450 extra yards and eleven more TDs because Rivers didn't have the 11 extra turnovers in 2006, or did Brees have the 11 extra turnovers because LT didn't accumulate those yards and TDs in 2005?

    We're also completely ignoring the defense's amazing increase in negative plays from 2005 to 2006:
    2005: 46 sacks, 10 interceptions, 10 fumble recoveries
    2006: 61 sacks, 16 ints, 11 fumble recoveries

    This illusion that Rivers was playing on "the same team" as Brees in 2006 is fairly laughable. Brees was playing from behind the whole season in 2005, while Rivers was playing with a lead in virtually every game in 2006. The team was obviously more successful under Rivers, but I think attributing that difference to a huge change in the quality of QB play is erroneous
  6. Buck Melanoma
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    San Diego Chargers Offseason Roll Call: Philip Rivers Looking to Rebound With Fresh Receiving Corps


    Thursday, June 28, 2012

    [​IMG]
    Chargers.com
    By Russell S. Baxter
    Featured NFL Writer
    With the NFL Draft over and free agency winding down, here’s a look at who’s coming, going and who to watch for when it comes to the San Diego Chargers in 2012.

    2011 Finish: 8-8, second place in AFC West. After winning four consecutive division titles from 2006-09, the Chargers have missed the playoffs the last two seasons. In 2011, the team opened 4-1 but would lose their next six games and seven of their last 11 contests.

    Hello: With former Pro Bowl wideout Vincent Jackson taking the free agency route to Tampa, and the club looking to bolster its special teams, the Chargers not only stocked up on receivers, but players who could return kicks as well. The Bolts inked a quartet of free agent wideouts in former first-rounder Robert Meachem (Saints), as well as wide receiversEddie Royal (Broncos), Roscoe Parrish (Bills) and Michael Spurlock (Buccaneers). The latter three are all capable of making the big play on kickoffs or punts.
    Running back Ryan Mathews comes off a productive campaign and could be even better with fullback Le’Ron McClain paving the way. Cardinals’ castoff guard Rex Hadnot will help, while Charlie Whitehurst returns to San Diego as Philip Rivers’ backup after a pair of seasons in Seattle.

    Goodbye: Norv Turner and company watched a pair of pretty productive players leave the organization as running back Mike Tolbert (10), who signed with the Panthers, and the aforementioned Jackson (nine) finished Nos. 1 and 2 on the team in total touchdowns scored. Tolbert was also very productive on the kick coverage teams, tying for the team lead with 12 special teams tackles.

    Injuries were a big factor on the offensive line a year ago, so it was no surprise that veteran left tackle Marcus McNeill was released (after missing a dozen games the last two seasons) and former all-star guard Kris Dielman retired in March after suffering a concussion during the season. Veteran safety Steve Gregory (72 tackles in 2011) signed with the Patriots while backup quarterback Billy Volek was released.

    Keep An Eye On: Rivers' attempt to bounce back from an uncharacteristic off-year. The prolific passer threw for 4,624 yards and 27 scores and was named to the Pro Bowl last season, but he also served up a career-high 20 interceptions and committed 25 of the team’s 28 total turnovers.

    It will be interesting to see how the Chargers’ offense develops with its numerous new wideouts. Also worth watching is how the San Diego pass rush progresses as the Bolts totaled only 32 sacks—down from 2010 when they were tied for second in the league with 47 sacks—hence the addition of free agent linebacker Jarret Johnson (Ravens) and rookie linebacker Melvin Ingram (1st round, South Carolina).
  7. Ikeman83
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    The red will probably help the Chargers to be in a better position to avoid the blue.
  8. Buck Melanoma
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    That & cohesive OL play.
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  9. HEXEDBOLT
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    Six of one a half dozen of another. Last year was a team effort, not one man holds all the marbles but the collective of the many. River's just happens to be on point and that's not a very good position to be in when the **** hits the fan.
  10. Blue Bolt
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    The injection of Gaither into the O-line last year was nothing short of a revelation.
  11. Blue Bolt
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    Is it an erroneous idea that 11 more turnovers (on their own) would significantly contribute to fewer team wins?
  12. HEXEDBOLT
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    Maybe AJ can worked a deal with the Saint's and get Brees back.
  13. Ikeman83
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    I think that point assumes that Brees and Rivers played in a vacuum, which they didn't.
  14. Blue Bolt
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    That's an easy fallback position. Doesn't change the fact that Rivers played better than Brees in the critical area of turnovers. Not an insignificant stat when it comes to predicting wins/losses.
  15. Sandolf
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    You know when Flutopia was so pissed off about Brees playing and thoroughly smelling up the joint, there were those who were making various arguments based on stats. That is all we had as it was long before streaming video and Sunday ticket. The point is... above and beyond stats there is the physical make up of the football player. Brees younger body may have eclipsed Flutie`s experience... BUT... when I see Philip Rivers throw a 50 yard pass on a rope and hit a target the size of a bread basket... I KNOW... Drew Brees does not make that throw if he has a 100 tries at it.

    And NOTHING of Ikeman`s blubbering and quoting stats is ever going to change this.
  16. Blue Bolt
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    Rivers is the perfect QB to run Norv's offense, and that's all that really matters right now.
  17. Sandolf
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    Sandolf Blue Moon Rising

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    Correct. And obviously Rivers feels that Norv is the perfect coach to take him to the next level. Otherwise he would not been so vehement in his defense of Norv and taken responsibility for last season`s failures.
  18. Ikeman83
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    It's not really a fallback position, it's the case. The 2006 team was much better than the 2005 team in literally every aspect other than QB, WR, and TE in terms of player talent and/or player performance. Rivers crushed Brees in terms of turnovers, but to me that was more a function of the game situations they were in, than of their abilities.

    Total TOs by both players, Brees in Black, Rivers in Blue
    2006 16 12
    2007 26 21
    2008 18 17
    2009 20 15
    2010 31 17
    2011 14 27
    Total 125 109
    Is there a difference, obviously, but an average turnover difference of +3/year isn't exactly earthshattering.
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