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Rivers versus Brees

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Trumpet_Man, Sep 19, 2006.

  1. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    *yawn*
     
  2. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    She has her knee cap squarely in your nutsack, she ain't lettin up, and there ain't **** you can do about it!!:D :lol
     
  3. reef shark

    reef shark BoltTalker

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    werd to Rivers
     
  4. O'reilly

    O'reilly New Member

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    :icon_toast: :icon_banana: :nana_dance: :rockout: :thumbup: :icon_beerbang: :devil:
     
  5. Thunderstruck

    Thunderstruck BoltTalker

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    Just to add more fuel to this rarely discussed topic:

    Drew Brees: A Championship QB?

    Drew Brees gave the Chargers the best chance at the playoffs. Right?

    He was the Bolts' only experienced QB, a pro-bowler, and therefore gave San Diego a much better chance to win now than the inexperienced Philip Rivers, right? And if the Chargers wanted to maximize their chances to win a Superbowl this year, Drew gave them the best chance for that, right?

    Drew Brees is a winner people say. He's a fighter. He has always overcome adversity in his career, and the Chargers should not have been so worried about his shoulder injury. After all, Drew's a gamer.

    When I think of a "gamer," I think of guys like John Elway, leading his team to fourth-quarter comeback after fourth-quarter comeback and superbowl after superbowl. I think of Tom Brady who always seems to play his best football when the chips are down. I think of Joe Montana leading unstoppably efficient offenses to multiple Lombardi trophies. I think of Joe Namath, boldly proclaiming that his team would shock the world, and then living up to that guarantee.

    There are many who would have us believe that Drew Brees is in that same category--a gamer, a battler, someone you want to go to war with. A leader.

    But does history bear this out?

    In 2005, the Chargers disappointed their fans by finishing 9-7, missing the playoffs in a year when most believed they had championship-caliber talent. The same team that ended the Colts undefeated season finished with a whimper, and limped into the offseason without so much as a wild-card invitation.

    Where was Drew Brees during this late-season collapse? After thoroughly dominating Buffalo the Chargers found themselves at 6-4. After a thrilling overtime victory over the Redskins in Washington accompanied by a loss by Denver to Kansas City, the Chargers suddenly controlled their own destiny; win out, and win the division. Many people forget that with just 4 games remaining in the season the Chargers were in the catbird seat. On a roll, with an 8-4 record and division-leader Denver still on the schedule, the Chargers needed their quarterback and leader to play his best.

    How did Drew Brees fare?

    In the last 4 games of the season, Drew threw 4 interceptions and posted a QB-rating of 75.9. He lost three fumbles. In the Chargers biggest win of the season, a 26-17 upset of Indianapolis that ended the Colts bid for a perfect season, Brees had a terrible second-half, very nearly throwing the game away with two costly interceptions and a fumble.

    Not exactly the stuff legends are made of. But the last four games of the season were simply an extension of Drew's mediocre play down the stretch. In game 11 at Washington, the aforementioned thrilling overtime victory, Brees was terrible, averaging less than 5 yards per attempt and throwing three interceptions.

    In the last six games of the season, Brees' quarterback rating was a dreary 72.7.

    Was it all his fault? Certainly not. The Chargers had issues along the offensive line. Antonio Gates was injured in game 10 against Buffalo, and may have been slowed for the remainder of the season. LT was not 100%.

    But it's not as if the team suddenly found itself without talent. This wasn't like in 2002 when injuries left Drew with a patchwork offensive line and virtually no offensive playmakers except for L.T. Drew still had veteran receivers Keenan McCardell and Eric Parker to throw to. Gates was still on the field and still productive. Tomlinson was still in the backfield. And the offensive line, while by no means dominant, was 80% intact. So while the team had its problems, it's hard to make the case that Drew wasn't one of them.

    But this isn't the only evidence that would suggest Drew's role as a leader, his reputation as a "gamer," may be overrated. Earlier I mentioned a QB named John Elway, and his penchant for fourth-quarter comebacks. Almost all the great QB's, and even the merely good, have a few notches in their belt that represent games won in crunch-time.

    How many did Drew have as a Charger?
    The answer is; three. In his entire career as a QB, the Chargers have three fourth-quarter comebacks for wins. That's one against Kansas City in '02, one against the Chiefs in '04, and one against Washington in '05. The latter comeback was not engineered by Drew, but by a sudden awakening of Ladainian Tomlinson, who dominated the fourth quarter and overtime in the win against the Skins.

    The Chargers have, however, lost several games they were winning in the fourth quarter. They have gained something of a reputation for an inability to "close the deal." The list is rather impressive of games the Chargers failed to close in '05.

    Game 1 vs the Cowboys. The Chargers led 24-21 going into the fourth-quarter and were shutout on offense.

    Game 2 vs. the Broncos. The Chargers led 14-3 at halftime and 14-10 going into the 4th quarter.

    Game 5 vs. the Steelers. The Chargers led 22-21 with 4:42 left to go in the 4th quarter. This game probably can't be laid at Drew's feet since he executed a 4th-quarter comeback to take the lead but the Charger's defense couldn't hold.

    Game 7 vs. Philadelphia. Chargers led 17-10 with 4 minutes left in the game and lost 20-17.

    Those were 4 winnable games in a season where the Chargers were two games away from making the playoffs. Drew cannot be said to bear much blame in the loss to the Steelers. However, in the Cowboys loss he had 4 chances to throw a TD pass from inside the Cowboys' 5 yard line and couldn't get it done. In the game at Denver it was Drew's horrible interception to Champ Bailey to open the second-half that turned the tide and reignited the Broncos as a team. And in game 4 against the Eagles the Chargers' job was made more difficult by two Brees interceptions, including a costly pick to Trotter in the fourth quarter that gave the Eagles a gift field-goal. That's three winnable games that were lost, and Drew Brees played an integral role in those defeats.

    We live in a results-oriented society. It's about what you've done; not what you've almost done, or what you might have done if only the ball had bounced your way. As much as Drew Brees exceeded expectations in San Diego it could also be said that his reputation for mental toughness is overrated. He was mentally tough enough to overcome the drafting of Philip Rivers--a move that signalled Drew's imminent departure--and guide the Chargers to a 12-4 record and the playoffs in '04. But the Chargers never did win a playoff game with Brees at the helm, and couldn't make a repeat-visit in '05 with one of the most talented rosters in the NFL.

    Strange how so many people still think of Drew Brees as being mentally tough. I'm still trying to figure out where that came from, because it sure didn't come from his play in tough games when the team needed him the most.
     
  6. RMANCIL

    RMANCIL New Member

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    I am sure if you guys debate it some more we will hear a new and interesting angle that hasn't been beaten to death and one of you will change the others mind on the subject.

    :no:
     
  7. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    I read this and come away thinking, what a bubbling crock of dog poo.
     
  8. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations on matching that very thorough analysis with one of your own.:tup:
     
  9. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Any time. That rousing rendition of crap refuses to take into account the play calling in the fourth quarter of most games last season, were Cam called a very predictable game. Run, Run, Pass. Very predictable. Giving opposing D every chance to get to the passer and the running back.

    Nor does it take into account the piss poor special teams play whihc gave away one game at least. Also to say that Elway, Montana or Brady drug their teams kicking and screaming to the SuperBowl, I call bull **** on that. IF that is the case, why then did Montana not drag the Chiefs to the SuperBowl? Talent. They had talent around the QB.

    Drew played well for the Chargers, people want to knock or degrade that, fine. Its a free country. But some Charger fans remember the number of terrible QBs the Chargers had under center between Fouts, Humphries, and Humphries and Brees. Some want to knock the 22 wins in two seasons, fine. I hope Rivers does much better than Drew did. But Drew did well for us, and I will call bull **** to anyones face who says different.

    Thunderstruck did post his opinion very well. I am not saying he is not entitled to his opinion, of course he is. I just disagree that Drew Brees was as mediocre as he indicates.
     
  10. Johnny Lightning

    Johnny Lightning Go Bolts

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    :fan: Don't ask for water....................
     
  11. Johnny Lightning

    Johnny Lightning Go Bolts

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    And I would do it again !!!:lama
     
  12. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    :icon_rofl:
     
  13. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    Insanity is doin the same thing over an over an 'spectin different results :icon_shrug: :icon_huh:
     
  14. Johnny Lightning

    Johnny Lightning Go Bolts

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    It was meant to be funny Toby :yes:
     
  15. Shamrock

    Shamrock New Member

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    I think it's the TRUTH ....

    Open your eyes, Mr. Conc .... :icon_wink:

    :foley53:
    :bolt:
     
  16. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    I disagree. You say what you will. Funny how none of the experts agree with the 'fans' here.
     
  17. Thunderstruck

    Thunderstruck BoltTalker

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    I said it wasn't 100% on Brees. I also said show me results. Brees is a good QB but what evidence is there that he is this scrappy, gutty fighter I keep hearing about? And I mean on-the-field evidence.

    Montana didn't have much of a chance to take the Chiefs to the SB considering that when he got them to the playoffs he got injured and taken out of the first game. Hard to compete from the lockerroom.

    Elway led many teams with mediocre talent to the Superbowl. They didn't win when they got there, but they got there. And Tom Brady has done it with less talent on offense than the Chargers had last year.

    In fact, the whole above argument of your is tripe because the Chargers had more offensive talent around Brees than any of those QBs with the exception of Montana's 49ers.

    The point to this isn't "Brees sucks." It's that Brees might be gone for a little different reason, which is that he has not shown that he is anything special in his own right during crunch-time. He's not the QB you want when the chips are down. Too many interceptions, and they can't all be blamed on the o-line. Too many leads lost, and they can't all be blamed on coaching. Too many times that the ball bounced the wrong way, and too many times where Drew had to be perfect because he had put himself in that position with earlier mistakes. At some point you have to look it in the eye and call a spade a spade.

    The Donks have had a philosophy when they've played the Chargers. "Force Drew Brees to beat you."

    And you know what? It's a philosophy that works. Perhaps PR will be up to the challenge.
     
  18. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    You see no evidence of his 'scrappyness'? Do you suffer from memory loss. Can you not remember the Chargers before Brees got here, you know, when ever we got down by 3 the game was over because they quit? Drew played under pressure quite a bit and would roll out and hit Rivers, Gates or KMac for positive yards. What are you wanting here?

    Really? I thought he was the starter in Kansas City. How many years was he in KC? More than one? So he is a great QB, but couldnt take a team like KC to the SB... There is a reason. KC did not have the talent to help their QB.

    I disagree that Brady and Elway had less talent around them. The Pats in their SB years hit on all facets of the game. Their special teams did not repeatedly put their team in bad spots.

    Really? You base that on what? Perhaps that Terrel Davis was a no game RB? Or that our secondary recievers were all of that? Opinion nothing more, and one not backed by stats.

    To expect any, ANY QB to be perfect is assinine. Last year our team beat two of your perfect QBs. Brady and Manning (both of them). Football is a team sport. TEAM. Brees did well for the Bolts, you disgree, thats your choice, but its 100% wrong.

    What ever you say. Seems to me that there are teams that asked LT to beat us, and we didnt. Perhaps in the Eagles game Drew should have blocked that special teams player that shot through and blocked the FG. I know Brees should walk on water. But you will have to accept that NO QB ever walks on water. None, not Brady. Not Manning. Not Montana. Not even your vaunted Elway.
     
  19. Thunderstruck

    Thunderstruck BoltTalker

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    It's interesting that you bring up the Eagles game. It would've been nice if Drew hadn't thrown those 2 interceptions, one of which came in the 4th quarter. Then maybe the blocked FG wouldn't have mattered.

    Montana was injured in the playoffs when he played for the Chiefs. In other words, no, he couldn't lead them to the SB since he wasn't physically able to play. And he was only there two years. Besides, dude was at the end of his career. At least he was IN the playoffs.

    By the way--Montana had 31 4th quarter comebacks in his career--and that doesn't include postseason. I wonder how successful his teams would've ultimately been if not for that ability he had. If he was like DB the 49ers might have never won a superbowl.

    You mention the Donks and Terrel Davis. Those aren't even the Donks teams I'm talking about. I'm talking about the Broncos teams before that, when Elway had virtually no pro-bowl talent around him either on offense or defense, and he often willed them to victory. He may not have won a SB with those teams, but he got a helluva lot closer than DB ever did.
     
  20. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    So when Rivers throws his Ints, as every QB does, you will post a long tirade about how he isnt the QB we need?

    Before anyone jumps in, there is never an opportune time for a turnover, but it is part of the game. Drew threw ints, every QB has. Same as WRs, TEs, and RBs fumbling. It sucks when it happens, but it is part of the game. Stat to look at, TDs to Ints... I think you will find more TDs than Ints by the guy you want to throw under the bus.
     
  21. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    I dunno 'bout the dog poo, it certainly is disengeniuous, IMHO.
     
  22. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    We all have differing ideas of what a 'good' QB is. I just remember how bad the Bolts QB was to write Drew off as a bad QB.

    I appreciate what he did for us, and feel no need to invent cases against him, or call him a liar to justify why he is no longer here. To each their own...
     
  23. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    word
     
  24. Thunderstruck

    Thunderstruck BoltTalker

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    Nope. I've seen Brees shut down too consistently.
    Any team that took away our running-game could put Drew in a bind. As long as the running-game was still viable, DB was generally solid. But there are QB's in this league that are just as dangerous when they are put into "pass first, pass only" mode. DB wasn't one of them. When the defense knew we had to pass Drew became a below-average QB, IMO. And when Drew had to elevate his game in the 4th quarter, he did not show any consistent ability to do so.

    If my thesis was, "Drew is a crappy QB" then it's disengenuous. But that wasn't the thesis. The thesis is that there's little evidence Drew can beat a team when all else fails...LT has been shut down, the running game ain't workin', and the opposing team has been able to keep it close into the 4th quarter.

    Even the Jets playoff game, which many people point to as an example of Drew's grit, required a very fortunate roughing-the-passer penalty to give us an extra opportunity in the red-zone before Drew found Gates wide open for the tying TD. And that final drive was all Gates--a short pass to Gates who turns it into a 50-yard play on individual effort. Drew Brees toughness--not so much.

    Look at last year. Show me where we won on the back of DB. I can think of maybe one game...vs. the Bills after our bye. The Bills came in with the 31st ranked run defense and had to seriously overcommit to stop LT, and Drew made them pay.

    We beat the Colts but it sure was looking like the Colts were going to come back and steal the game until Turner bailed DB out for a couple bad decisions earlier. Drew was horrible against the Skins. Mediocre against the Cowboys. Mediocre against the Eagles. Average against the Steelers. Bad against the Dolphins and Jets. He stunk in KC and did nothing against the Broncos. That's too many friggin games where we won in spite of Drew or lost at least partially because of Drew.

    Look. if Trent Dilfer can win a superbowl, anyone can. Drew Brees can win one but I think he needs a juggernaut around him to get it done--and it can't be placed on his shoulders. If it's a close game in the 4th quarter, I wouldn't feel particularly confident with Brees behind center.
     
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  25. Thunderstruck

    Thunderstruck BoltTalker

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    For the record, I don't care at all about the "liar liar pants on fire argument." I do care about the injury to an extent, but what my whole post is about is the idea that AJ is looking at this from an entirely different viewpoint--that he believes PR is more likely to become that QB who can elevate his game in crunch-time. If DB had proven he would do it then AJ wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but DB has not proven he will elevate his play when it matters most.

    In other words: Drew Brees is a good QB. But I think AJ believes PR has greatness in him. And that's the real reason Brees is no longer a Bolt.
     
  26. sdchrger

    sdchrger Well-Known Member

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    Can't argue with any of that.:tup:
     
  27. Thunderstruck

    Thunderstruck BoltTalker

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    Yay!

    Seems like in most cities the QB gets too much credit for winning and too much blame for losing.

    But it seems like in SD no one wants to look this thing in the eye and assign any blame to the QB for the fact that we lost 5 games last year we could've won. It's always someone else's fault--coaching, o-line, defense, special teams. Never the QB. We live in some wierd responsibility inversion here...
     
  28. Johnny Lightning

    Johnny Lightning Go Bolts

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    I've never heard you say that before :lol: :bolt: :foley53: :bolt:
     
  29. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    Nor can I...but to put those defeats listed in that "article" (its laughableta call that POS journalism; frankly sounds like it was written by a misguided/disgruntled poster!!) solely at Drew's feet IS disengenuous. IF the D holds on last drives vs the Donks AND Pitt, and IF Reche doesn't fumble the ball inside the Philly 30 in the waning moments of a game where LT gained less than 10 yards rushing, those losses arguably go the other way.

    Last I looked, football is still a team sport...could be wrong, tho.
     
  30. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    Geez, I dunno...TEAM sport??:icon_shrug: :icon_huh:
     

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