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These are your choices

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by MasterOfPuppets, Apr 12, 2013.

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Which of these round 1 and 2 combos would you prefer?

  1. Lane Johnson, Larry Warford

    63.2%
  2. Chance Warmack, Terron Armstead

    15.8%
  3. Chance Warmack, Menelik Watson

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Jonathan Cooper, Terron Armstead

    5.3%
  5. Jonathan Cooper, Menelik Watson

    5.3%
  6. Other

    10.5%
  1. DenverBolt67
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    DenverBolt67 BoltTalker

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    Do you or anyone else project Star to add on 15-20lbs of weight and play NT? If not, why draft yet another DE when we have 2 young good players already?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. matilack
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    matilack #therealagent47

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    I guess I'm not ecstatic about the logic of enhancing what is already our biggest strength when we have so many problems elsewhere. So our D-line will be great....but teams will just stop running and start spreading us out exposing the fact that we are weak at CB, OLB, and S.

    If Lotulelei is there we need to try to trade the pick.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. matilack
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    matilack #therealagent47

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    Nobody is laughing off anyone, just explaining why nobody has Terron Armstead going right after Lane Johnson despite a couple teams with a glaring need, and why nobody has Lane Johnson going in the late 20's or 2nd round like Armstead.

    Armstead is perceived to be more risk, for obvious reasons. And it would be wise to refrain from making the senior bowl the be all end all of scouting a player.
  4. SuperCharger92
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    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    Possibly 10 pounds, but he really doesn't need it. He benched 225 at his pro day 38 times, would of tied first among DL at the combine with Brandon Williams and Margus Hunt. So the upper body strength is there, which is the most concerning for him. His lower body is thick and very strong.
  5. LT-Express
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    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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  6. Bolts4lyfe
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    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    My only suggestion on Cooper is:

    According to scouts, analysts, and media folks there are only 5 elite players in this entire draft

    Joeckel, Fisher, Milliner, Warmack, and Cooper. Not saying any of the other players won't develop into something great (That's the trend I see with this class, many of the players are still developing, learning, etc.)

    Offensive line is our biggest need, everyone knows it. Lane Johnson is a huge smoke screen for many teams looking to trade IMO. Not saying he won't, can't be great. Personally I see high upside "Trent Williams" type good or at least an Andrew Whitworth type ceiling. While others are saying Jason Smith (which I don't agree with) but it also can be a possibility, depending on how well/quickly he develops.

    For me I'd take the "Elite" player in Cooper any day of the week, I know Guards can be had and found all over the draft but still I'd take the guy going to the pro bowl and taking his RB with him over a guy who may just be good enough any day of the week.

    Rivers also does a lot better when he has time to step up in the pocket, which he never had much time to do last year, having a guy like Cooper allows that. Obviously the desirable choice would be to trade back and then grab him and the "Dream" scenario would be to get Saffold in the process. Either way like I said I would love to have either but out of the 2 the more I see Cooper the more I want him on our team.

    All of the better teams have really good guards and only some of those teams have really good tackles, I know LT is more important than LG but just wanted to throw that out.

    I know many of you may disagree with my thought just as I may not agree with your but those are my two cents.
    Also, I know it may also sound stupid but first time GM and HC just may go the safer route at least in the first round.
  7. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    So you'd take Star Lotulelei over Lane Johnson? A 3-4 DE basically (our strongest position) over a potential stud LT. That's a good decision if ever I've seen one...:eek:
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. SuperCharger92
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    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    Yup, Star Lotulelei will be a better football player than Lane Johnson will be at the NFL level. As long as his heart issue doesn't affect him, and I'm sure it won't.

    I think some people are overrating Lane Johnson because we have such a need at LOT. The media is also hyping him up a bit (Mike Mayock), and if this was a more elite class, meaning, if there were more elite players he'd go later in the 1st round. Look at the 2012 draft, Riley Reiff was a way better prospect than Lane Johnson is this year and yet he went 23rd.

    People do not understand that Lane Johnson will be a project at LOT. People think he's gonna come right in here and be successful. If we're going to pick a project at LOT, we might as well wait until the 2nd round to get one, and spend a first rounder on a guy who will make an immediate impact.
  9. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    Star will be buried behind Reyes and Liuget on the depth chart, so he's not going to be one to come in and make an immediate impact. Johnson will likely start if we draft him. He'll probably need a chipping TE or RB on longer-developing plays, but he'll actually start.

    Also, you have no possible way of knowing whether Star or Lane is going to be the better prospect over the long-term. Johnson has barely even played his position and is already a stud.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. SuperCharger92
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    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    Kind of got lost reading that but okay, I'll explain.

    I'm saying a top-1o player in this years draft will fall. Whether its Star Lotulelei, Ezekiel Ansah, Dion Jordan, etc. Due to how other teams are drafting towards their needs. There is only a handful of elite prospects, so after they are gone teams will be going for their need more so than the best player available.

    I'd be surprised if Geno Smith lasts past the NYJ at number 9. Yes he isn't the best QB in recent drafts, and his receivers did a lot of work for him in college (Tavon Austin and Stedman Bailey), but as far as NFL type throws and coach able mechanics, I believe he is the best QB in this class if put in the right environment around good coaches.

    There is no way in hell St. Louis takes him. Sam Bradford went 1st overall a few years ago. Why would they spend a pick again on a QB? Especially last year, they were in the number 2 spot, and could of gotten RG3, but they believed Sam Bradford needed a better OL and they did that this year. Now they have to get better weapons around him, losing Steven Jackson doesn't help, so look for them to go WR. I'd be surprised if Tavon Austin or Cordarelle Patterson were passed up by the Rams.
  11. SuperCharger92
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    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    Star Lotulelei will be a NT. He played over the center in college. Have you watched him before? He's the "stud". The media was labeling him as the number 1 overall pick before the heart issue, and they were actually pretty spot on, because I still think he can go top-5.

    Please define "stud" in terms of Lane Johnson? 12 career starts at LOT in college makes him a "stud" huh? Or facing Lavar Edwards and Malliciah Goodman on 1 v 1's in Senior Bowl practice makes him a "stud" huh?

    I really don't get what some people see in him. He's going to be a good football player, but not for at least 2 years from now. He just started play LOT in 2012, and converted to lineman in 2011. He's still learning the position.

    I hope he's gone by 11. This way we can either grab Terron Armstead in the 2nd, or trade for Rodger Saffold.
  12. Moses
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    Moses Yeah Buddy!

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    If it was my choice and both were available, I'd pick Lane.

    That being said, I don't see how you could say Star would be buried behind other players on our depth chart. For one, I think he is versatile enough to play both 3-4 NT and DE, and we do have a need with only Cam Thomas at NT. The thought of Reyes, Liuget and Star on the DL is intriguing, even if we do have bigger needs. Even if you don't think he could play 3-4 NT, who is to say he won't get reps at DE? He is a very good player, and would at least be a part of the rotation regardless of position.
  13. DenverBolt67
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    I have no idea if he can play NT or not, but IF he can't, spending a 1st rounder on a guy who will be nothing more than a rotational guy with another 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder, seems like a HUGE waste when we have huge needs at other positions. Now, if he can play NT, and that is who they get, so be it. But if he is drafted to play DE, then that would be a totally ridiculous waste of a draft pick since we would be ignoring positions of need with good talent available
  14. Moses
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    Moses Yeah Buddy!

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    Oh no doubt about it. That's why I referenced in my original post that I'd rather have Lane if available, and that it is intriguing IF we can have him with both Reyes and Liuget together on the line.

    If they do view him as someone who can't play 3-4 NT (in my view he can play it), then they shouldn't even consider picking him.
  15. Bolts4lyfe
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    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    The fact that he is rated the 3rd best LOT in the draft while still learning the position defines "stud" in my vocabulary, Will he be great? I don't know.

    The same argument you have for Johnson can be said about Terron Armstead, What proof do you have that this kid will be a "sure thing" starting LT in the NFL? I'm not saying he won't be but no one knows what these futures hold for these kids.

    Which comes down to for me, LT or OG. But like I said that's my preference, I'm not going to change your opinion about Star just as you can't change mine about Johnson, Cooper or Warmack.
  16. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    It's been stated many times on this board that he's ill-suited to play a 2-gap NT. Most of the tape I've seen of him is as a NT in a 4-3 front. If he didn't play NT for us, he'd be a 3-4 DE, which, although he would see reps, he would be buried behind 2 great starters. So we're either talking about using a 1-gap NT 3-4, having him do something to which he's poorly suited, or drafting a player at literally the strongest position on our entire roster, where we are not only very good, but also very very young.

    This isn't really directed @ Moses, but there are basically only two positions for which this team should not draft, 3-4 DE and QB. Now, there are obviously some positions where drafting a player who plays that position in the first is a little silly. RB, ILB, and WR all come to mind, as unless you're getting a truly exceptional player, the opportunity cost of drafting the player is rarely less than the benefit received (there are some obvious exceptions, but they are, of course, exceptions). As Matilack pointed out, there are premium positions in the NFL, and in today's NFL the tiering is as follows:
    QB
    LT, CB, Pass rusher (3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE)
    C, S, Other DLine, TE, WR
    G, RB, non-pass-rushing LB
    FB, K, P

    Having an elite guard won't help you if your LT is complete garbage. Having the best NT in the history of the NFL (Jamaal Williams, anyone?) isn't worth anything if you don't have quality pass rushers and corners. However, having an elite LT, elite pass rushers, and elite corners will make up for a lot of other short comings. This is simply the way the game works. If Johnson turns out to be a dominant LT, that's a decade-long pick in an area of need that will help us even after Rivers retires.

    If Star turns out to be an amazing 3-4 DE, then we now have 3 fantastic players of which only 2 can be on the field at a time. Johnson may not be the greatest player of all time (i.e., it's not worth mortgaging the farm to move up for him), but given the circumstances presented in this thread, he'd absolutely have to be our pick if he's there at 11. Even before the pre-draft hype was swirling around him, he was still viewed as a top 20 pick. If the value in this pick from 1-20 isn't significantly different, then taking the player with lots of upside at a premium position which is also a position of need seems like a fairly obvious choice.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Bolts4lyfe
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    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Admit it, you just don't like Star because he's in the 45%:D

    [​IMG]
  18. Moses
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    Moses Yeah Buddy!

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    Ikeman, I'm not advocating we take him, only stating that in my opinion, I wouldn't be so quick to write him off as capable of playing that position, but then ultimately that is up to teams running a 3-4 scheme to decide if they think he can fit. You are absolutely correct that this team does not need a 3-4 DE, I'm not arguing that at all, but I do think he is certainly capable of being a nose tackle in a 3-4 D. I think we can all agree though that we do have bigger needs such as a left tackle, so we all better hope that there is still one there at 11.

    And as for having a great NT not being important, come on now man, last time I checked, a pass rusher or CB didn't do a whole lot to stop the run right at the line of scrimmage, but I do remember the J-Wall playing a huge part in probably the best run defense this team has ever had.
  19. Ikeman83
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    I never said that, I said that a NT wasn't on the same level of importance as a pass-rusher, LT, or CB. How many NTs are 3 down players? Just something to think about.
  20. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    I couldn't find a picture of him with his shirt off, but he's probably between 20-25%.
    [​IMG]


    EDIT: He's probably between 25-30%, but it's impossible to say when he's got a shirt on. Male and female body fat percentages are skewed by about 10 points due to different essential fat levels.
  21. Bolts4lyfe
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    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Is it me or does 40% look like a sad marshmallow?
  22. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    yes, 40% does indeed look like a sad marshmallow.
  23. LT-Express
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    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Well it's pretty simple economics really. Let me explain for ya. Is St Louis likely to take him if he falls? No. Is a possibility? Yes. Sam Bradford has only played 1 full season since he has been in the NFL. He has never thrown for 4,000 yards, averages about 15 TD's per year, has only 1 20 TD season, averages about 225 yards per game, and has a completion % around 57% for his career. For being a #1 pick making between $10- $14 million dollars a year he hasn't done little to nothing in this league. Now granted he hasn't had much to throw too I get that. But if for some reason Geno Smith fell with the new rookie wage scale they could get him for a minimal amount to develop I would say they would atleast consider it.

    Like I said, I am not saying that they will, as a matter of fact it's still highlyunlikely. But you can't tell me that a team paying their QB that much for what he has shown in this league wouldn't even consider it.
  24. SuperCharger92
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    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    Again, Terron Armstead and Lane Johnson are very similar. Both are raw prospects, I consider Lane Johnson more raw due to Armstead's experience, but also have to take in his level of play. But, any questions of Armstead's ability, he seemed to answer it with is performances at the Shrine Game and Senior Bowl.

    So you could waste a 1st rounder on a guy who will be a project at LOT or you could spend a 2nd rounder on one. I'd rather spend a 2nd rounder on one.

    Hey everybody has their own opinions and views. Just wanting to put mine out there that's all. I love a good sports talking that's why were all here.
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  25. SuperCharger92
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    Star Lotulelei reminds many people, and my self of Haloti Ngata.

    Ngata is arguably one of the best defensive lineman in the league, and one of the most versatile, he can line up at DE or NT. Lotulelei, will certainly be able to do both. If drafted, Reyes, Lotulelei and Liuget are going to be a force to be reckoned with along the defensive line. They can all rush the pass and disrupt the run game. You add a young stud in Donald Butler in the mix, and also Melvin Ingram, your going to have one of the strongest front 7's in football.

    You could also take, say Manti Te'o in the 2nd if he falls (doubt he does), and trade your 3rd rounder to the Rams for a 3rd or 4th rounder, again one of the best front 7's in football in the future if they pan out like there expected to.

    So many possibilities at 11, can't wait to see how this draft pans out in a few weeks.
  26. Bolts4lyfe
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    Again both have only played LT in 12 games, so to say one is more polished than the other is quite silly. Both are extremely athletic, and still growing.

    I would rather "waste" a first rounder on a guy who has the upside and potential to be the top tackle in this class.
  27. DenverBolt67
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    Yeah, he's only about 30 lbs lighter. Ngata is 340lbs and weighed in at 338 at the combine, Lotulelei is 311. Hard o say they are similar players when the weight difference is so extreme.

    As for the rest, you would be completely ignoring the offense and wasting a $90mil QB behind a TERRIBLE OL that was not improved in the draft. I would call that a terrible draft
  28. Bolts4lyfe
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    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    No offense but I would shoot myself in the face if our draft went as

    Round 1 Lotulelei
    Round 2 Te'o
    Round 3 traded our 3rd to the Rams for a 3rd or 4th rounder???????????? what the heck does this even mean?
    • Winner Winner x 1
  29. DenverBolt67
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    DenverBolt67 BoltTalker

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    Telesco would instantly be right there with AJ if we don't go Offense with 2 of our 1st 3 picks, with OL being 2 of our 1st 4 picks
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  30. Bolts4lyfe
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    And then re signs Clary for more years and money, then comes out saying some smart @#$ comment saying "Look, I’m a Charger one year at a time, just like everyone else around here.”

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