Ok, you're Spanos (not meant as an insult ), you fire Norv, maybe AJ too, you bring in a new HC, do you tell him "I want [insert name] kept on the staff" or are you ok with him firing everyone? I'd keep Pagano and Joiner
I strongly agree, but Pagano has done wonders. And Joiner is probably one of the best Wide Receivers coach in the league. Bisaccia I could see be gone if someone else comes in. But Pagano I can't..
True, but Spanos can "suggest" that he wants those guys, and a new HC can interview them and feel they are the right candidates for the job.
Mostly agree. Pags, Joiner and B-satch. I could just imagine what Pagano could do with a "talented" group of defenders. We all know what Joiner can do with just scrubs and when he gets anyone with a small shred of talent, they blossom. Bisaccia is highly regarded and for the most part has got the special teams doing what they need to be doing. That punt-block glitch was just that, a glitch, it was quickly fixed. Everyone else? Adios muchachas...
Why? He's turned this defense around, wasn't his fault the defense gave up a 4th & 29. He played the deep ball, it was someone's responsibility to play spy on Rice, and when he caught the ball the nearest guy in front of him was 27 yards away. Also, with all the players injured he was forced to rush 4.. One more thing, had he have a better secondary, we could be talking about top 5 defense in the league.
Okay...if it wasn't his fault whos was it? Bottom line...if you don't cross the finish line you lose! Basic business concept and works well in sports too. Best effort means ****! Deliver or get marginalized. The objective is WIN THE GAME. Close loss is = a loser. If you don't cross the finish line you should not expect to keep your job...in any business. Okay...I feel better now.
I'd keep Pagano and Joiner too. Bisaccia will move on I reckon. Our new HC will surely be able to find a coach who can coach special teams.
Don't know if he would help long term. forget the 4th & 29 I question the coverage schemes he runs which are not what our DBs are best at and I question alot of his groupings and blitz packages which seem to put ineffective pass rushers out there (J. Johnson) or are too predictable when sending 5+ (see Denver, New Orleans, Tampa, etc). He also has had more to work with than Manusky but by the same token I'm seeing more of an improvement of individual players (Butler, Liuget) and the addition of some good new players (Ingram, Reyes, etc) than I am the defense as a whole
It's hard to evaluate DCs under Norv's gameplanning. We like to pretend that they operate independently of the HC, but I doubt it. Wouldn't be at all surprised if Norv was telling them to dial it back. RR seemed to work okay within that system (though his D had trouble getting off the field) but not anyone else. Pagano has built a good run D, but the pass D suffers because of both poor secondary play and lack of pass rush. Hard to say who's most responsible for the latter: Pagano (inability to create plays that get his players on the QB), Norv (handcuffs Pagano), or AJ (lack of talent on roster).
I think that with the experience gained by some of the young defensive players (Liegut, Ingram, Reyes, et) and one more year within the system, Pagano can have a very good defense, I just don't want to see the 5th DC in as many years
So a marketing director who, in under a year, markedly improves an array of key success metrics is to be fired for a couple of lapses caused by personnel he managed and not because his strategy or tactics are unsound? You're analogy is flimsy because you're reducing business to the level of kneejerk sports fandom not elevating our understanding of actual sports using business concepts.
Lol.. What exactly are Jammer & Cason good at again? I mean of course coverage wise. They both SUCK. Wright was lost for 1/4 of the season and took time and still is taking time getting back. Gilchrist wasn't ready to take over Jammer & Cason, and neither Jammer or Cason can play in the nickel, so it had to be Gilchrist there. And Carr was brought in for back up, and doesn't provide much. I do think all decisions are stamped by Norv as well. His blitz packages are actually pretty damn good. I love them. We've gotten pressure so many times and haven't been able to wrap the QB up, they would either scramble away, a Charger would over-pursue, or it's be very poor tackling and not being able to wrap the QB up. I love the Nickel blitz he has with Gilchrist as well. We've had 8 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 safety, and an interception the last two games, against a 9-2 team and 8-3 team. And its the players fault? It's piss poor execution on their part. But, again it was a bunch of ST's guys, who saw some of their first NFL snaps. And Takeo Spikes, who I was very disappointed with, didn't huddle those young guys around in that group and give them some motivation and confidence, not to mention his poor tackling. And if you want to use that analogy with Norv, fine with me. But, has he turned the team around from last year? No. I think this team is way more talented than last year but he's actually made them a worse team. And actually is Norv's fault our secondary is bad. He continues to ignore the fact Jammer has lost about 10 steps on the current WR's in this league. He should of been moved to SS 2-3 years ago. Charles Woodson did it. Jammer has been very open to moving there as well. But instead, he sticks with an air head like Atari Bigby who absolutely SUCKS. He gets run over by EVERYONE, cause he wants to make the big hit on a guy and goes high every time. There was a reason why the Packers and Seahawks let him walk. His tackling is horrendous and coverage skills are flat out terrible.
I would keep Pags, but I think that any HC coming in needs to build his own staff. I also think that he can't be a yes man to the GM. Whether it's AJ or someone new, our HC needs to have a vision for how he wants to build/run his team, and that vision needs to be shared with the GM, so that the coaching staff and roster are 100% in line with that vision. Corners who can play the kind of coverage the coach wants, LBers who can take care of their assignments (whether coverage, run/pass blitzing, pass rushing, run stuffing, whatever), D-linemen who fit his scheme (1- or 2-gap, 3-4, 4-3, what have you). A DC who shares the HCs vision, and an understanding with the GM of where your priorities are for the talent levels of these players and their backups. I feel as though AJ is building one team (shoddily as a result of a lot of failed picks and trade-ups) and Norv is trying to coach a vision of a completely different team. This is probably the biggest reason why we fail.
Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure. In other words, clean house and start from scratch.
I also can't wait to see Jammer play Mike Wallace, and or Antonio Brown in Pitts. We're gonna get torched if Ben's playing AND also remember what Plaxico did to Cason last year? Yeah, they have him too..
I don't think that Pags should be imposed on the HC, but if the HC and Pags see eye to eye on roster management and vision for the defense, I don't see any reason not to keep him. His defense plays fantastic football, and his blitzes are creative. I don't think it's on Pags that our starting CBs are garbage and that we have no one to replace them with. How awesome would our defense be if we had 1 corner who could play press man on an island and 1 corner who could intelligently play a zone or press man with safety help?
Well, obviously if the new HC wants to keep anyone on the current staff I'm all for it, but I still like the idea of getting rid of everyone and giving the new staff the opportunity to hire "their" guys.
Pagano's defense isn't a mirror image of his brother, Chuck's defense with Baltimore, but its pretty close. Jarret Johnson of course is here so that helps, and Donald Butler has played similar to what Ray Lewis did last year in Baltimore under Chuck, and Shaun Phillips is a poor man's Terrell Suggs from last year, unfortunately. Eric Weddle is playing like a younger Ed Reed, and Atari Bigby is just as dumb as Bernard Pollard, too bad Pollard is better in coverage. Biggest difference is the CB's. Ladarius Webb and a combo of Jimmy Smith/Cary Williams played well last year. I'd take Cary Williams and Jimmy Smith from last year over Antoine Cason and Quentin Jammer this year.. Our DL though, I think is better overall than the Ravens' last year. Franklin, isn't as good as Ngata obviously, but Franklin has held his own. Reyes, Liuget have been BEASTS, and even Martin has contributed very well.
And quite frankly I feel that's setting a coach up to fail. If Pagano is as productive, well-received, and respected as we want to believe he is then an incoming HC candidate will be pitching retaining him as part of his interview (because believe me potential staff hires are a bullet item that's discussed in those). However, I hate the idea of forcing anything on a new coach. If for instance, we were to hire (not likely, but it makes for a good hypothetical) Ray Horton, the Cardinals' DC, as our new HC or Vic Fangio the 49ers' DC. Both of those guys runs a variably different brand of 3-4 than Pagano has this year, and quite frankly if they felt like they had a better option than John to come in and serve as their DC (who already knew their vision, terminology, etc.) then I'd trust them to do what they do. This team has had enough of trying to fit square pegs in round holes. We need streamlining and proper fit for design.
The team was in position to blow that 4th and 29 in the first place primarially BECAUSE of Pagano's defense. Anytime you're in line to win the game when your offense only gives you 13 points you're doing a good job running the defense. One bad play doesn't tell the entire story.
I wouldn't argue about anyone and everyone being kept or fired because I'm all about letting the HC pick his own assistants. (Forcing Cotrell on the still-yet-to-be-hired HC was one of the things I hated back then) That being said, I approached this thread more as asking which Coordinators we, as fans, are fine with amongst the overall mess. Pagano's defense is the absolute main reason this team isn't winless right now.
It has nothing to do with "kneejeck" reaction. It has all to do with setting clear objectives and executing to achieve a goal...winning. As a manager (or a coach) you are accountable for your staffs (players) performance. Now as a manager you may make the case to your superiors that you need more time and capable staff; if they agree you may get a second chance..that still does not relieve you of the accountability of your presents staffs' performance. That is all I was really trying to say...management 101. My comment was not a vote to fire anyone, it was just a statement that the coach/manager is accountable for the good and bad of their respective staffs/players.
