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Will Chargers staff fit Rivers with no-huddle?

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Blue Bolt, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. Blue Bolt
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    Will Chargers staff fit Rivers with no-huddle?
    By Tom Krasovic - 3:47 P.M. - JAN. 25, 2013

    With Norv Turner gone, is now the time for the Chargers to see if Philip Rivers fits the no-huddle offense?

    Turner, the team's coach from 2007-12, clung to huddling unless the Chargers had no choice but to speed up.

    The new Chargers coaching staff, in contrast, is rich in no-huddle know-how, so head man Mike McCoy was asked if the offense suits Rivers.

    “I think you can do that with anybody, really,” he said. “It’s a matter of what your players do best. Does your quarterback like that? Do you have the right players to do it? There’s a place for it, without a doubt.”

    The no-huddle is like a favorite sports car to Broncos quarterback Peyton Manning, who went 2-0 against the Chargers last year and led Denver to the AFC West title.

    As it happens, Manning's no-huddle secrets may be known to two new Chargers coaches: McCoy, who was Denver's offensive coordinator last year, and Frank Reich, who was Manning’s quarterbacks coach with the Colts for two years.

    In addition, Reich piloted the no-huddle as an NFL quarterback and the backup to Jim Kelly. It was Kelly who directed the “K Gun” attack that took the Bills to Super Bowls from 1991-94.

    Another no-huddle coach is Ken Whisenhunt. Lo and behold, he joined McCoy's staff as the offensive coordinator and playcaller, coming off six seasons head-coaching the Cardinals.

    Whisenhunt said his Cardinals teams had “really good success” with the no-huddle.

    “A lot of it’s dependent on the QB,” he added. Asked if the scheme suits Rivers, he said, “I think there’s a lot of things that he can do and does well, and it’s going to be our job to try to emphasize those things.”

    Turner treated the no-huddle like an encased fire extinguisher, breaking the glass only in emergencies. In the 2011 season, as the Super Bowl-bound Patriots and quarterback Tom Brady prospered with the no-huddle, Turner said the scheme would’ve ill-served the Chargers.

    “A team like New England played almost the entire game in one offensive personnel package,” he said. “That’s what you prefer to do in the no-huddle. We prefer to use personnel groupings and a number of different guys. When a game’s over, we’ve played 18 to 20 guys on offense. If you’re subbing in the no-huddle, you don’t get the same benefit as if you’re playing with the same people every time.”

    For what it’s worth, when the Cowboys won two Super Bowls with Turner as their playcaller, their opponent each time was the no-huddle Bills.

    As the no-huddle has evolved, allowing teams to reel off more plays and formations than when Reich played, more NFL teams either have embraced or dabbled in it. Up to 20 NFL clubs used it in 2012, estimated a Sports Illustrated writer. The AFC champion Ravens were among those who used it this past season, as did at least one of the participants in the previous six Super Bowls.

    A bigger test for the no-huddle will come in the next NFL season. The football world will be watching the Eagles to see if Chip Kelly’s offense resembles Oregon’s no-huddle blur that, under Kelly, propelled a variety of Ducks teams and quarterbacks to BCS bowls.

    The no huddle’s advantages are obvious. Defenders have less time to disguise their looks. Absent stops, the defense will wear down faster. Offenses can create or preserve mismatches by moving too fast for defenses to substitute.

    Then again, trying to coordinate without huddling can make for fuzzy offense. The menu of plays is reduced, and the team’s own defense can wear out fast if the attack flames out.

    Because the huddle is eliminated or reduced, a quarterback’s ability to read defenses and communicate grows in importance.

    “I really believe you have to have a veteran, composed quarterback to live in it,” said Ted Tollner, a former assistant to the Bills’ no-huddle pioneers, Ted Marchibroda and Marv Levy.

    “With that said,” Tollner added, “you have some rookie quarterbacks that look like they’re veteran, composed quarterbacks. We’re seeing some young guys that are running that stuff like they’re veterans.”

    Tollner said the attack isn’t suitable for sluggish offensive linemen. Although not all no-huddle attacks move fast, the blockers need to line up promptly, or else the defense won’t have to worry about the ball being snapped.

    “It’s them learning that tempo but also being conditioned mentally and physically for it,” he said.

    The Chargers coaching staff, which recently gained a new strength and conditioning coach, has been scouting draft-eligible players in recent days. Before crafting an offensive strategy, the coaches will help the front office to assemble a player roster.

    “It’s premature to talk about a lot of those things until you see what type of personnel that you have and what you feel good about going on – and what types of changes will be happening,” Whisenhunt said. “There’s going to be free agency and drafts, and additions and subtractions.”
  2. Ikeman83
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    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    Gates prevents us from running the no huddle. You need explosive TEs who can function as WRs in terms of explosion and downfield plays, and Gates simply can't do that anymore. On top of that, Mathews is apparently still a liability in pass pro, which adds another set of issues.

    Could Rivers be effective with it? Almost certainly, he's an 8 year veteran and a smart guy. Is the team built for it? I'd say not at the moment.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Blue Bolt
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    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    That's why we're in rebuilding mode (keep this quite, some fans don't like to hear this kinda talk). ;)
  4. Ikeman83
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    I don't know if we're in rebuilding mode. Rebuilding mode implies that the team isn't competitive. I think that our sucked out 7-9 record and the nature of some of our losses shows that we're competitive, but have a lot of talent black holes. To me, a revamped line, and improved quality at the TE position could see this team capable of effectively running a NH offense. The questions on this are, can we get a quality TE, how much would it cost to cut Gates, and how long will it take to replace 5 linemen, and then have them gel enough to play together effectively.
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  5. Blue Bolt
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    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    If you need to rebuild essentially your entire O-line, then you're in rebuilding mode. That kind of overhaul doesn't happen in a single season.

    LOL...... we're not cutting Gates.
  6. DenverBolt67
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    DenverBolt67 BoltTalker

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    Unless it is 2004 when we traded for Oben, signed Goff as a FA, drafted Olivea and Hardwick, and promoted Dielman to the starting role, and went from having a terrible QB to a pro bowl QB, both being the same player
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  7. SDRaiderH8er
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    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    Unless we find some players that do not get hurt all the time because it sure seemed like every third play a Charger was being helped off the field, what good is the no huddle then?
  8. Blue Bolt
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    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    That requires a lot of luck (especially with a UDFA), and how long did Olivea last?

    It's not impossible, but to expect that to happen again, is optimistic to say the least.
  9. Blue Bolt
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    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Health does have a big influence on the success of a team......

    Kaepernick benefits from ironman offensive line
    Posted by Darin Gantt on January 26, 2013, 4:19 PM EST
    While the play of quarterback Colin Kaepernick has certainly been exceptional, he has also benefitted from playing behind a stable, and very good 49ers offensive line.
    The five starting linemen played every game, and the right side of his line hasn’t missed a snap all year.
    According to Matt Maiocco of CSNBayArea.com, right tackle Anthony Davis and right guard Alex Boone played all 1,005 snaps of the regular season.
    They were also healthy across the line, with center Jonathan Goodwin and Mike Iupati only missing 25 offensive snaps all year (980 snaps each, or 97.5 percent) and left tackle Joe Staley only missing 47 snaps (958 total, 95.3 percent).
    That’s the kind of safety net you want and need when breaking in a new quarterback, and Kaepernick has certainly benefitted from their protection and run-blocking.
  10. boltssbbound
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    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, having more versatile skill players opens up an offense's options. But there's plenty of teams that run the no-huddle with TEs that are less explosive than the current version of Gates.
  11. Ikeman83
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    Name them. Then ask yourself, A) Are they effective? and B) Do they have better receivers than we do?

    Gates used to be a tremendous strength for the team, but he's become a weakness. Can he get open? Of course, but then he typically just gets tackled immediately. 30/45 passes that he caught traveled fewer than 10 yds through the air. Of the remaining 15 passes, only 1 (34 yds) traveled more than 20 yds through the air. (For some reason the ESPN splits show 49 total receptions, but only has splits on 45 of them. Weird. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/5362/antonio-gates)

    Is he a weapon inside of the opponents' 20? Sure, but when we're stalling out on our own 20 that's kind of a moot point.If I'm reading his contract details correctly at Rotoworld, we'd free up almost 4.5 million by cutting him, and his yardage totals were 18th among all TEs. If he isn't a much better player this coming season, then he certainly won't be worth the 5 mil he's scheduled to make in 2014.
  12. DenverBolt67
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    He wasn't a UDFA, but he was a late pick. And although he didn't last long, he did a very good job for a couple years which should have given us sufficient time to find a long term solution at RT.

    I am just pointing out that it is not impossible (nor is it likely to happen again), and to say "That kind of overhaul doesn't happen in a single season" is not an accurate statement as we saw in 04
  13. boltssbbound
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    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    So now Gates is responsible for the quality of the other receivers on the team? You are banging a drum about Gates needing to be replaced with a better tight end. I understand that. But you are shoehorning the weakness of Gates into every argument, whether it makes sense or not.

    We didn't run a no-huddle when Gates was the best TE in the league and we had better WRs, either. It was not something Norv liked to do.
  14. Ikeman83
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    I have no idea where the bold came from, or what it has to do with anything.

    The red is irrelevant. We're not talking about what was done in the past, we're talking about the ability of the team to run this kind of offense going forward.
  15. Blue Bolt
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    I guess, I should've said that kind of overhaul rarely happens in a single season...... that would've made you happy. :D
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  16. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    Rivers would have no problem with the NH offense but the fat boys up front may not be able to handle it. The Bolt's would have to install a completely different conditioning program which I'm sure would benefit Gates and maybe even some of those fat boys up front.
  17. boltssbbound
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    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    You blamed our inability to run the no-huddle on Gates. When I pointed out that other teams run the no-huddle with worse TEs, you said those teams have better WRs. If you don't see the contradiction there, I guess I can't help you. If you'd said that the quality of our skill players prevented us from running the no-huddle, that would be one thing. But you specifically singled out Gates' diminishing play as the reason we couldn't run the no-huddle.

    If red is irrelevant, then you should go back and edit the color of all your posts on this topic. Having versatile skill players is a major asset. But to just dismiss the no-huddle as a possibility because Gates is not the big-play threat he was four years ago? That's crazy.
  18. matilack
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    matilack #therealagent47

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    Agree its not Gates.

    If anything I'm concerned it might be more because of Rivers. The guy makes a lot of mistakes under pressure, and calling the plays at the line in a hurry would only logically increase the chances of mistakes and mis-communication. Also doesn't help when you have have new faces on the O-line every week.
  19. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    I don't see quarterback or receivers not named Royal or Meachem as the problem. Rygina has been a big problem, the dude isn't even an average RB at this point in his career, especially being outplayed by the old man that is his backup. O-line, what can be said there? they've been nothing but atrocious.
  20. Ikeman83
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    I didn't blame our past inability to run the NH on Gates. I said that Gates' lack of explosion would prevent us from being able to effectively run the NH going forward. Gates is not a drive blocker, and he's not a TE with big play potential. We also have very little YAC potential from our receivers (though Alexander is promising). The team which has been most effective with a NH offense, NE, has **** WRs and star TEs, why? Because it allows them to use the same 5 skill position players to show everything from a 4-wide look to a traditional I formation. Baltimore also has two great TEs, which has helped them when they go to the NH, and ATL's NH attack was also obviously tremendously aided by Gonzalez.

    I'm still waiting to hear which teams effectively ran the NH with a less-explosive TE than Gates. The red is irrelevant because this particular conversation is about whether or not the Chargers will be able to effectively run the NH offense in the future, rather than what reasons inhibited them from doing so in the past.
  21. Blue Bolt
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    "Explosive" and "TE" don't really belong in the same sentence..... #imjustsaying ;)
  22. Ikeman83
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    Tell that to Hernandez and Gronk
  23. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    Gates will be back to his old tricks this coming season. If you've never had an injury, and no, not the kind your mommy kissed and made all better you can't understand what Gates went through the prior three years. If he drops some Lbs. and has the confidence back in his feet he'll be terrorizing DB's again. Going NH and gates getting into the second level watch out, dude ain't done.
  24. Ikeman83
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    Last year Rivers was gushing about how "fast" Gates looked. I won't be holding my breath on Gates having a revival. If he does, fantastic, as it's unlikely that we're going to do anything to actively improve the TE position this offseason.
  25. Blue Bolt
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    Hernandez is a tweener, and is pretty fast. but Gronk isn't what I'd call "explosive". They're both playmakers, but explosive implies blazing speed..... something few TEs possess.

    Gates just needs to keep his weight down, to stay effective. Everyone slows down with age, but his foot problems have hampered him more than age has.
  26. Ikeman83
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    I agree that his foot injury has hampered him. I have seen no evidence that he'll ever completely recover from it. Also, I don't think that explosive implies blazing speed, simply an ability to break a big play. Gronk makes plays with strength as much as speed, even if he isn't absurdly fast.
  27. Concudan
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    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    After seeing River's butcher 2 minute offenses the last 2 season... I'm going with no thanks..
  28. Ikeman83
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    Did Rivers butcher the 2 minute offenses, or did the line get him slaughtered because the defense knew we were passing? I don't think it's appropriate to compare the NH to the 2-min
  29. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    Ball watcher!!!!!!!!
  30. HEXEDBOLT
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    HEXEDBOLT Well-Known Member

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    These guys aren't machines and after what Gates has gone through the mind still wasn't convinced. Losing weight and being able to train full time this off season will make a big difference. He'll never be 20 again, but he'll be able to split the seam and make life miserable for linebackers once more.

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