1. Welcome to San Diego Chargers NFL Football Podcast and Forum!
    Bolt Talk is one of the largest online communities for the San Diego Chargers.
    We host a regular Chargers podcast during the season.

    You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Create an Account or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!

Win the games or forfeit them?

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan, Dec 9, 2012.

?

Should the Chargers follow Ikeaman and Maitliack's advice and forfeit their remaining games?

Poll closed Dec 16, 2012.
  1. No! You play to WIN the game.

    95.2%
  2. Yes! It's always better to LOSE to gain draft position.

    4.8%
  1. Ikeman83
    Offline

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,465
    Location:
    Newport, Rhode Island
    Ratings Received:
    +629 / 39 / -9
    You don't think that the odds of finding quality players decrease as one moves farther from the top? You think the bust to star rate is between 2:1 and 3:1 in the top 5? Really?

    There is certainly a level of uncertainty present in the NFL draft. However, by choosing before other teams, you reduce your uncertainty to what you've been able to ascertain about all of the players available, instead of about the players left over. A higher draft slot also provides the advantage of being able to trade down and being able to attempt to hit a star more times by having additional picks.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Joy Division
    Offline

    Joy Division Slightly-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,109
    Location:
    NorCal
    Ratings Received:
    +414 / 5 / -0
    I'm in partial agreement. Next weeks game isn't considered long-term interest. So if the Chargers can game plan
    and win with what we have next week, then it's a win (short-term).
    If we keep that mindset every week for the rest of this decade, then it should be a good decade (of course, not guaranteed).
    You work with what you have now, not what you hope you have in the future.
    Why plan for next year? The one game at a time mentality and one play at a time mentality is what wins
    games. No one plans on winning every season game before it's even determined who your opponents are. "Hey, how about we win the Lombardi this year guys?" "Hey, that's not a bad idea, wonder why we didn't think of it sooner?"
    Tomorrow takes care of itself (and it's always tomorrow).
  3. Ikeman83
    Offline

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,465
    Location:
    Newport, Rhode Island
    Ratings Received:
    +629 / 39 / -9
    You're confusing optimizing player/coach mentality with team optimization, again.
  4. Joy Division
    Offline

    Joy Division Slightly-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,109
    Location:
    NorCal
    Ratings Received:
    +414 / 5 / -0
    I'm confusing nothing.
    Lose now for an un-guaranteed future draft pick. That is your position. It's clear, no confusion on your part there.
    Stick by it and stay miserable.
    I'll stick with my philosophy and be happy.
    You can only prepare for so much.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. HollywoodLeo
    Offline

    HollywoodLeo Trevor Phillips Enterprises

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,706
    Ratings Received:
    +1,584 / 29 / -1
    Is it really a bad thing if we win games in the playoffs?
  6. HollywoodLeo
    Offline

    HollywoodLeo Trevor Phillips Enterprises

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,706
    Ratings Received:
    +1,584 / 29 / -1
    Do I think they decrease? Perhaps.

    Do I think they decrease so steeply that I feel it's worth hoping my favorite team loses? Nope.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. ETicket
    Offline

    ETicket Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    912
    Ratings Received:
    +261 / 4 / -2
    I call BS on you calling my realization BS. Of course my answer to the questions you pose is no. The problem (for you) is that those questions and answers don't even come close to disproving my position.

    Are you really going to argue that there is no value in a higher draft position or in the abosolute certainty that both AJ and Norv get canned? If you answer yes to any of this I will attempt a Vulcan mind meld with you to ascertain what kind of brain damage has occurred.

    spock.jpg

    See what I did here? I purposely made you a woman. :p
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Concudan
    Offline

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    47,138
    Location:
    North side of So Cal
    Ratings Received:
    +3,706 / 39 / -8
    I call BS on you calling BS to my calling BS! (Oh my I have gone crossed eyed...)

    To begin. No where have I said there in no value in higher draft picks. Nor has the discussion ever been about Norv or AJ.

    The number one draft pick goes to the worst team in football. Over the last 10 years, has there been a huge change on which teams are getting the top 10 picks? Have the Browns, Raiders, Chiefs, Jags been getting better due to their high picks? I would suggest that is not the case.

    Can you show me the team that has gone from goat to great with one high draft pick? (if you are thinking Indy, I might be forced to agree, but they had 1 terrible year) You can ignore the facts that stare you in the face if you are so inclined, but the fact is, rarely do the Patriots, Colts (excluding last season) or any of the other yearly playoff teams get the top draft picks. That alone should tell you something about the high picks. It is the same teams year after year picking high. Not new teams, the same teams. So how effective are the high picks? If you got it great. To expect a team to throw games to move up a few spots is simply the stupidest thing I have ever heard put forth.

    The draft is still a gamble my firend, be it the first pick of the draft or the 32nd.

    Over the last 6 years jacksonville has drafted (in the first round) with these numbers : 5th, 10th, 10th, 8th, 8th and 21st. If we apply your 'logic' (you pointy eared hobgoblin) then the Jags should be contending for the superbowl correct? Because those high picks are soooo important and effective... What am I missing?

    Buffalo; 10th, 3rd, 9th, 11th, 11th, and 12th. Are they closer to getting a paid trip to the super bowl to play? How about the Chiefs or Raiders.

    No. The high level picks rarely make you team unless you need a specific player (QB or LT). If you cant see that 'logic' then take off your rubber ears and turn in your Trecker card...
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Ikeman83
    Offline

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,465
    Location:
    Newport, Rhode Island
    Ratings Received:
    +629 / 39 / -9
    Here are the 1st overalls from the last 15 years.

    Andrew Luck (IND)
    Cam Newton (CAR)
    Sam Bradford (STL)
    Matthew Stafford (DET)
    Jake Long (MIA)
    JaMarcus Russell (OAK)
    Mario Williams (HOU)
    Alex Smith (SF)
    Eli Manning (SD)
    Carson Palmer (CIN)
    David Carr (HOU)
    Michael Vick (ATL)
    Courtney Brown (CLE)
    Tim Couch (CLE)
    Peyton Manning (IND)

    Looks to me like there're only 3 teams picking 1st overall more than once, and two of them were expansion teams.

    Obviously being at the top of the draft is wildly more beneficial if you have key talent on your roster already. That's the entire point. Teams with key holes, which otherwise have quality talent, benefit from high draft selections. Teams do not benefit from wins except as pertains to advancing to the postseason. I don't understand how this is controversial or news.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. ChargerMike
    Offline

    ChargerMike BoltBruthaFromAnuthMutha

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    366
    Location:
    Iowa
    Ratings Received:
    +199 / 1 / -0
    Gotta play to win and let the drafts fall into place.
    BOLT PRIDE BABY!!! :cool:
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. ETicket
    Offline

    ETicket Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    912
    Ratings Received:
    +261 / 4 / -2
    Oh what a tangled web we weave when we start out with a premise that is ill-conceived.

    I see. You're just saying a high draft pick doesn't matter, but not that they have no value. Got it. :confused:

    The debate as to whether or not its advantages for the Chargers to lose has always included the AJ and Norv factor. http://bolttalk.com/threads/chargers-win.27569/

    The rest of your argument cherry picks facts from history to support the view that a high draft pick doesn't guaranty success. No debate there. I agree it doesn't guaranty success. There so are so many factors and a good deal of luck that affect the success or failure of a NFL team. I get that.

    This all still boils down to one question: Is there an advantage in a high draft pick? Obviously the answer is yes, and I want the 2013 Chargers to have that advantage. Don't you?
  12. Concudan
    Offline

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    47,138
    Location:
    North side of So Cal
    Ratings Received:
    +3,706 / 39 / -8
    I will ask you again. Why do teams that do not regularly get the high draft picks do so well? Please answer that. I do not think, and the facts and history back this up, that having the top or high draft picks do not guarantee that your team will do better.

    Further, if you dont need a QB, why draft high? If the player you want is likely to be around mid round, why pay them more by taking them high? How many of us thought Ingram was going to fall to where he did?

    You play to win the game, draft is shyte for the offseaon... Period. Exclimation mark.
  13. ETicket
    Offline

    ETicket Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    912
    Ratings Received:
    +261 / 4 / -2
    Nobody is suggesting that the Chargers should throw games or play to lose. Nobody.
  14. Joy Division
    Offline

    Joy Division Slightly-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,109
    Location:
    NorCal
    Ratings Received:
    +414 / 5 / -0
    What other purpose would a win serve? You are correct. That's the whole point. You win to advance to the
    postseason. Have the Chargers been eliminated? No. They haven't. Until that happens, why would anyone
    be rooting for losses? Oh, because of the benefit of losses.
    Last time I checked, the NFL doesn't give out trophies for participation.

    "Teams do not benefit from wins except as pertains to advancing to the postseason."
    I love that quote. It makes a valid point don't you think?
  15. Ikeman83
    Offline

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,465
    Location:
    Newport, Rhode Island
    Ratings Received:
    +629 / 39 / -9
    Rookie salary cap. it's pennies.

    Further, there have been two teams drafting consistently at the bottom of the draft. NE and Indy. Indy degraded continuously, which was masked by Manning. The degree to how much this was masked by Manning was wildly apparent last year. Bill Belichick has a Satanic Pact that enables him to consistently hit in the low first and 2nd on playmakers. It also doesn't hurt that he, like the Colts, has an amazing QB.
  16. Ikeman83
    Offline

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,465
    Location:
    Newport, Rhode Island
    Ratings Received:
    +629 / 39 / -9
    We were eliminated from winning the division against Cincy. The likelihood of us advancing to the post season is roughly 0. The team is bad. picking in the top 5 in every round could've made a significant improvement to our talent.

    This is not difficult. Mysteriously, people continue to post Herm Edwards videos asserting that winning a game is good in and of itself, rather than as a means to an end.
  17. ETicket
    Offline

    ETicket Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    912
    Ratings Received:
    +261 / 4 / -2
    OK, I will answer your question... then I will ask you my question for the third time and see if you can answer.

    I've already stated that there so are so many factors and a good deal of luck that affect the success or failure of a NFL team, but as to why "teams that do not regularly get the high draft picks do so well" the the main reason is obvious and simple. They are not getting high draft picks because they are already good teams.

    LOL - You're asking me why do good teams do so well!

    So, yes or no... Is there an advantage in a high draft pick?
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Joy Division
    Offline

    Joy Division Slightly-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,109
    Location:
    NorCal
    Ratings Received:
    +414 / 5 / -0
    Oh, we've been eliminated? My bad. I wasn't aware. What exactly is roughly 0?
  19. Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan
    Offline

    Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,474
    Ratings Received:
    +1,296 / 12 / -5
    Ikeman is. He's even on board in thinking that forfeiting games is ok.
  20. Ikeman83
    Offline

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,465
    Location:
    Newport, Rhode Island
    Ratings Received:
    +629 / 39 / -9
    I've never said that. Your reading comprehension skills are abominable.
  21. reef shark
    Offline

    reef shark BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Messages:
    931
    Location:
    vegas
    Ratings Received:
    +49 / 0 / -0
    the wildcard chance isnt great but pitt and cinci have 3 tough games left and can easily drop 2 of those last 3. im with you on getting good draft picks, but a new GM needs to be hired first, or else expect a buster davis or larry english 2.0
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. Concudan
    Offline

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    47,138
    Location:
    North side of So Cal
    Ratings Received:
    +3,706 / 39 / -8
    Yes, there us an advantage. I have never said there wasnt. The point I am making is that a high draft pick does not mean you will be successful. Something you say you understand. Good teams are already good... OK. How do they STAY GOOD without those high draft picks? Or is your contention they dont have to replace good players? You are also not addressing why so many teams that draft high never improve. Thus I think you are blinded to the importance of it. There is a value, you can trade a pick or use it, that said the importance is either heightened or minimized by your needs and the needs of the teams in front of you.

    So are you of the ilk as other that feel the Chargers should be throwing games to get that better draft pick?
  23. Concudan
    Offline

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    47,138
    Location:
    North side of So Cal
    Ratings Received:
    +3,706 / 39 / -8
    That is the part of the discussion you are missing. There are fans suggesting that... Right here in River's City...

    That is my contention. A high draft pick is not so valuable that you would throw games to get a better one. Perhaps that is why we are failing to understand one another... Or it could be that you spend too much time on the starship Enterprise mind melding Nurse Chapel... ;)
  24. Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan
    Offline

    Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,474
    Ratings Received:
    +1,296 / 12 / -5
    Backpedal much? You did just now:

    Were you drunk/stoned/otherwise f'ed up when you typed this? Or did your 10 month old get on the keyboard again?

    Clearly here, you support the forfeiting option.
  25. ChargerMike
    Offline

    ChargerMike BoltBruthaFromAnuthMutha

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    366
    Location:
    Iowa
    Ratings Received:
    +199 / 1 / -0
    Whoa man., I was never suggesting that either.....I was just answering the poll question.....lol.
  26. HollywoodLeo
    Offline

    HollywoodLeo Trevor Phillips Enterprises

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,706
    Ratings Received:
    +1,584 / 29 / -1
    You want to talk about logic while using logical fallacies. This isn't a black-and-white matter of there either being full value or no value. The point of contention is the degree of value.

    Of course a higher draft pick is more valuable than a lower one. But some of us don't feel it's so much more valuable that it warrants hoping our favorite team loses.

    As for AJ and Norv, of course that isn't a definite thing until it's official, but I'd put the odds in our favor this year. The circumstances aren't quite the same as they were last year. There's one less year on the contracts, the pressure is a lot higher (having started at a high piont already), the argument for canning them becomes a lot stronger.... This is 2012, not 2011.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. FCBolt
    Offline

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,335
    Ratings Received:
    +604 / 11 / -4
    Of course not. But there's a (minute) chance the 'foregone conclusion' is incorrect.
  28. HollywoodLeo
    Offline

    HollywoodLeo Trevor Phillips Enterprises

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    13,706
    Ratings Received:
    +1,584 / 29 / -1
    Somehow I don't see myself being mad with one more year of Norv if it comes with playoff success this year....however minute the chances of that happening is.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. Ikeman83
    Offline

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,465
    Location:
    Newport, Rhode Island
    Ratings Received:
    +629 / 39 / -9
    I said it would have been in their best interests. Not that they should have done so. I know that this is a difficult concept for you to understand, but the two concepts are quite distinct, even if subtly so.
  30. Ikeman83
    Offline

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2,465
    Location:
    Newport, Rhode Island
    Ratings Received:
    +629 / 39 / -9
    Depends on your definition of losing. If you look at the NFL as a series of individual contests your perspective is different from those who look at it as an amalgamation of those contests.
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page