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4-3 defense

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by MasterOfPuppets, Jan 7, 2016.

  1. MasterOfPuppets

    MasterOfPuppets Charger fan since 1979

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    I know the Chargers play a hybrid defense with guys lining up in different spots, but, with addition of FAs and draft picks how would you line up in a 4-3 defense

    Me:

    DE : Bosa, Attaochu
    DT: Liuget, Carraethers
    OLB : Ingram, T'eo
    MLB : Perriman
    CB : Verret and Flowers (maybe Robinson or Mager if he develops)
    S : Addae and veteran FA (plus draft another one)
     
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  2. Nomad

    Nomad Very Senior Member

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    Rivers can play Safety.
     
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  3. ThunderHorse17

    ThunderHorse17 Lone Wolf

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    **** the 4-3
     
  4. BoltFanDC

    BoltFanDC Mufflers Are Overrated

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    Paging LBC...you are needed in the Personnel department...
     
  5. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I only put idiots on ignore...

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    I thought that they were considering going "Thunder Hammer" this season...
     
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  6. Cheapseats

    Cheapseats Loud, proud Charger fan

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    You didn't just go "Thunder Hammer" on us?...oh, the humanity!
    (For those of you that are new to the forum...that's funny...and a long story)
     
  7. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    I like it
     
  8. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    I've done a lineup on a 4-3 Under and a 4-3 Over, but not a pure 4-3. Honestly, there are different brands of pure 4-3, so I'd have to see who the DC was and know how they organize their sides to know it.

    I can throw up the 4-3 Under (Seattle/Atlanta's scheme) assignments.

    Also, something to bear in mind... if Nolan gets the promotion, we'll almost certainly be sticking with a 3-4 long term. We may continue to use some hybrid and 4-downed linemen sets in the interim while we continue to flesh out the personnel, though, because Nolan's brand of 3-4 is 2-gap ("play the run on the way to the pass"/"read-and-react") using a 4-tech, a 0-Tech, and a 2-Tech versus the 1-gap/Phillips-Burroughs 3-4 we're used to with a 5-Tech, 0-Tech, and 5-Tech. And frankly, we don't have the defensive line personnel to 2-gap right now. Liuget could do it in theory, but it doesn't play to his strengths (he'd likely slot in as the 2-Tech, still on the right side just lining up directly over the LG). Philon would almost assuredly never project to more than a depth guy. Same for either of Matthews or Square; they simply lack the length and athleticism you need from 2-gap DL.
     
  9. Dublin Bolt

    Dublin Bolt BoltTalker

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    I don't want Addae as starter. The guy has no idea how to tackle and has less of an idea in angles while pass covering, we can do better than him as starter.

    Ask him to play special teams until he proves he has learnt how to tackle.
     
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  10. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    What do you think about Jaye Howard? He's had quite the year this year in Kansas City. Signing Howard and if we can trade back and draft Jonathan Bullard, the defensive line looks a lot stronger on paper than previous years.
     
  11. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Generally speaking, I favor a 3-4 approach.

    Because I see Bosa as a 4-3 DE only, he does not interest me as a potential first round selection.

    I think we have been too much of a hybrid defense that is good at nothing when it comes to front 7 play. This is largely due to a lack of talent in my opinion.

    My approach would be to get better talent and run a 3-4 more often with actual 3-4 defenders (more on that in a moment).

    I do not like Te'o as the presumptive Will in your hypothetical 4-3. That makes no sense to me. He is slow and can't tackle consistently. I like Perryman, but do not love him as a 4-3 Mike either because that puts pressure on his one weakness (or at least non-strength)--lack of speed.

    I think a 4-3 Under is a better possibility, but again, not ideal with Te'o playing on the weak side. I don't like the 4-3 Over for us.

    I would love to have a true NT that was capable of effectively playing either a two gap or a one gap technique. I think that would go a long way toward helping out our defense in the 3-4 formation. Carrethers has some strength, but is lacking in athleticism. I think we need someone even stronger and significantly more athletic, but I think Carrethers represents solid depth as a #2 NT. I think he is solid value for where he was taken in the draft (5th round), but not exceptional value.

    In my view, we have to stop passing in the draft on players that could help us build a strong 3-4 defense. Bud Dupree is a freakish athlete and was there to be taken by us and we whiffed in stunningly bad fashion (once the trade up debacle is considered). Smart teams with good defenses, such as Denver, don't whiff when they have a chance to add a potentially special edge rusher to their defense even though they already have two elite edge rushers. They take a guy like Shane Ray, give him some reserve playing time, and let him develop.

    And we repeated the mistake in the third round when we had a chance to take Carl Davis. We need big and strong and Davis definitely represents that. Again, he was there to be taken, even late in round three, making him a potentially great value pick. It is not like we did not and do not have a gigantic weakness on the DL.

    Obviously, the team took a different approach, and just as obviously, their approach failed and failed miserably.

    So, at the end of the day, we need three starters to have a rock solid front 7 for our 3-4: a true NT, an ILB that is better (more athletic, better tackler) than Te'o to complement Perryman, and a 3-4 DE that can play opposite Liuget. We also need more explosive quality depth at OLB in terms of actual edge rushers and some ILBs that can defend against the pass (though we may not be in a 3-4 when those ILBs play).

    As for the secondary, I think Robinson can start opposite Verrett. Based upon Flowers' contract, it looks like it would cost us more to cut him than keep him, but hey, maybe we can be the only team idiotic enough to be forced to have an inactive player all year that carries a $9.75M salary cap hit. Then, we can designate him as a post June 1st cut in 2017 and only have to eat a $2M sh!tburger in each of 2017 and 2018. The situation reminds me of the one we had with Meachem after 2012, only worse.

    I would prefer to upgrade Addae, but honestly, that isn't priority #1 through #10. Mager has some athleticism, so I am okay with trying him out at FS in 2016 since we probably can't afford to expend heavy resources at FS this year given our multitude of other needs. But I have to admit that I do not know if he can actually play FS.
     
  12. scratchnz

    scratchnz BoltTalker

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    I really like this idea! The only questions would be if Carraethers is dynamic enough to be the Nose in a 4-3 and if Attaouchu is strong enough to play the run as an End in a 4-3. Getting Bosa would be Key to making it work thou.

    I wonder if we could get Lovie Smith as DC?! We also have Mike Nolan to consider.
     
  13. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    No one should want Lovie Smith. His (the Dungy Tampa-2) is a dated scheme that the league has outgrown and passed by - and Lovie has absolutely no interest in adapting it or changing from it (one of the bigger reasons why he was canned in Tampa). You want to run an aggressive 4-3, you want Jim Schwartz - the catch-22 there is that Schwartz is a scumbag of the Jeff Fisher variety (he was Jeff Fisher's long-time DC after all) who continually enabled the chippy-sometimes/dirty-other-times antics of the likes of Haynesworth, Cortland Finnegan, Suh, and Dominic Raiola.
     
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  14. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    that's last years defense! This year it's THOR'S Hammer! And I will be back in that Championship faster than you can Spanos Sucks
     
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  15. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Fulfilling on past request - and even I'll admit I'm not entirely satisfied with the lineup as it would sit (there are still a good many questions to be answered), this is what I imagine a 4-3 Under front would fill out like with our current roster.

    LDE/4-Tech (2-gaps): (Bosa; Adolphus Washington; Chris Jones), Ricardo Matthews
    NT/ 1-tech (2-gaps): Carrethers, Philon (on passing downs potentially or perhaps Liuget slides to the 1-tech and Philon goes to the 3-)
    UT/3-Tech (1-gap): Liuget
    LEO/9-Tech: Attaochu

    SLB: Ingram, Perryman
    MLB: Te'o, Perryman
    WLB: Perryman, Emanuel
    * The LB's are where there's a lot more questions right now. Te'o could conceivably play the MIKE because the limited coverage expectations are mostly dropping back down the middle third of the field similar to the MLB's role in a Tampa-2. The system as a whole where it's used around the league operates with a lot of Cover-3 principles, so the MIKE and SAM are often getting the benefit of a safety in the box helping them out, but the need to be able to effectively cover their assigned ground. Ideally, if (and it's a definite if, though I like how his skill set translates to the position) Emanuel takes well to the WILL position (which gets A LOT of tackles funneled its way), I'd want to move Perryman centrally because he has better range than Te'o does. Ingram is perfectly capable of playing the SAM role in this formation and playing it well, however it's likely not the type of eye-catching position that's going to pop the kind of stats out that will net him a huge payday, so barring overpaying him for what he's asked to do (which would still be serving as the - likely - primary cover to Jerry at the LEO spot as well) it's a spot that might well need more of a long-term solution, but... it's also one that can be filled by a long, rangy LB who doesn't necessarily have to have Ingram's pass-rushing ability (think a Manny Lawson type or Alec Ogletree).

    What we really lack right now to play this formation though are the safeties - you need a true centerfielder who has the lateral agility and speed to protect the final third (along with the corners who are carrying receivers obviously) pretty much solo. Additionally, you need a safety capable of running with TE's and making unassisted tackles in traffic (not just Addae doing his "I'mma-drop-the-shoulder-and-hit-him" technique). Moreover, because the coverage is a lot of Cover-3, you simply can't have the habitual 5-7 yard cushions that has been a staple of our defense even prior to Pagano (all the way back to Cottrell and Manusky); you have to allow the corners to come up to the line and bump and mix it up with receivers. Verrett, despite his size, can do it and even if he doesn't get a massive jam at the line, he's shown quite capable of riding the hip of his assignment anyway (as he did with Antonio Brown this year). Robinson was terribly at it in New Orleans, but in small sample-sizes he's shown improvement on the rare occasions we've allowed him to play tight on guys from the slot the year. Flowers hated being asked to do it in Kansas City, but he can do it as evidence by his time at Va Tech.
     
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  16. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    We're incredibly weak at safety now, regardless of what scheme we choose to run.
     
  17. scratchnz

    scratchnz BoltTalker

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    Safety should definitely be a priority in the draft should we shift too a 4-3.

    I guess we wont know what the plan is until we sort out who is the DC for sure
     
  18. powayslugger

    powayslugger Feckless Slappy

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    Our D hasn't been lights out for a long time and ever since Jamal left we've been trolling for a decent replacement at NT. Our defense is "okay "on most Sunday's but I wouldn't say we "scare" anyone with our 3-4 scheme. Why not try a 4-3? We've had sucky ILBs for too long now.
     
  19. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    If we really want to commit to the 3-4, we need to go out and get Damon Harrison, dude is a freakin stud.

    I would have gladly given up our 2nd round pick last year to steal him as an RFA. (Probably not anymore though, Perryman is bad ***.)

    Hell, given how our first round pick turned out we may as well have just traded them straight up.
     

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