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About last night .....

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Buck Melanoma, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    NFL supports decision to not overturn Seahawks' touchdown

    • National Football League
    • Published: Sept. 25, 2012 at 12:21 p.m.​
    • 138 Likes | 113 Comments​



    In Monday's game between the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, Seattle faced a 4th-and-10 from the Green Bay 24 with eight seconds remaining in the game.

    Seattle quarterback Russell Wilson threw a pass into the end zone. Several players, including Seattle wide receiver Golden Tate and Green Bay safety M.D. Jennings, jumped into the air in an attempt to catch the ball.
    While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay.
    When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.
    Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.
    Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.
    The result of the game is final.
    Applicable rules to the play are as follows:
    A player (or players) jumping in the air has not legally gained possession of the ball until he satisfies the elements of a catch listed here.
    Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:
    A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

    (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and


    (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and


    (c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

    When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:
    Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
    Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:
    Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.



    Expect a package, Roger.
    [​IMG]

     
  2. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    OR...

    they could've just re-posted my genius treatise from just after midnight in
    "Nonsense and Non Sequiturs" :D
     
  3. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    If the Refs had a Union why are they not creating a picket line? I am positive the players would not cross that line. But then the NFL knew exactly what they were getting into when they started this mess. So with that I will not complain about those guys out on the field I know they are giving it their best shot, so if someone thinks they can do a better job, get out on the field and prove it.
     
  4. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. Lancer 1

    Lancer 1 Eternal Optimist

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    Everyone knows it was bull, we all have eyes but there was no way that the NFL wanted to open that Pandora's Box by using the technology & authority they possess to ensure the proper result. If they had done that, they would be deluged with requests that they correct every single horrible call in every game going forward.

    It's only going to get worse, these replacement refs aren't bad people, they're just not up to doing the job at the NFL level yet and if I were negotiating on behalf of the real referees, I would consider increasing my demands after last night's very public debacle.
     
  6. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    I have had several adults complain about my Umpires, when I ask them for their phone number to schedule them for the very next game behind the plate, they change their tunes really quick
     
  7. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    This situation, from an economic standpoint, is no different than what we are seeing daily in various arenas. Goodell is doing his best lapdog imitation at the behest of the greedy owners who see their economic engine (fans) as too witless/complacent/hooked to put up a fight.
     
  8. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    Did you get my point? That union-busting Scott Walker is now all about the union refs?

    NIMBY
     
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  9. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    it takes years of experience to get up there. You just cannot take someone and say "YOUR QUALIFIED" now go call the game. It would be a lot easier if they all played by the same rules, but every level has their own set of rules. The misapplication of rules is very easy.
     
  10. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    Which further makes the case that this is about $$, not about any integrity, player safety, or quality.
     
  11. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    Yes I did, and if they want to bust that Union, they are going to go with what they have. How many people say the hell with football because of that?
     
  12. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    More than you might think. I certainly hope there are many who stand with the idea of treating this part of the game with due respect - including strengthening their union.
     
  13. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    They followed the rules as written. It may not be very satisfying (especially given Tate's blatant pass interference)
    but the published rules provide no legitimate way to rule this an interception. And as I pointed out at the end
    of my treatise last night, it isn't really a "replacement ref" issue as people are trying to make it out to be
    (and I say this as one who wants the regular refs back immediately!!)
    I'm not familiar with a single instance in league history of the regular refs overruling a TD catch,
    by issuing an interception to a guy, despite no indisputable evidence of him controlling the
    ball to the ground...and indeed, the receiver ending up with the ball. If reg refs have ever ruled
    thusly, I'd love to know of it.
     
  14. Lancer 1

    Lancer 1 Eternal Optimist

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    I'd like to see a background check conducted on the folks who worked the game last night. (and check their bank accounts for any recent deposits while you're at it)

    Remember last week when a bonafide Saints fan who is also a replacement ref almost got to work the Saints game?

    The guy who called that last play a touchdown was about 15 yards away & came running in, and the ref who was much closer was the one signaling interception & touchback. Add in some of the more questionable calls that went againt the Pack last night, and just imagine if you later learned that one of the guys officiating the game had some kind of personal ties to Seattle...
     
  15. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    I know its about the money, the NFL does not want pay what the refs want. Which by the way they should not get paid like Baseball. Baseball Umpires are on the road from March through October. Football has one game a week for 17 weeks. Umpires have to cover 4860 games, there are only 992 in football, and that does not include the preseason or post season.
     
  16. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    I'd submit that no one outside of the guys under the hood & certain employees of the NFL got a complete look at the play. Perhaps they ruled correctly on this portion of the entire play. The fact is, it should never have gotten to this point because there was an offensive PI that was blatant. And yes, I do realize that you have pointed this out.

    Bottom line - the game is suffering & players are exposed to more injury because of money. So we as fans can either keep ponying up & accept the diminished product or we can vote with the only thing these greedy fucks understand - our wallets.
     
  17. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    and how many times have we seen Pass Interference called on a hail Mary pass because there is pushing and shoving going on with both teams.
     
  18. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    I've heard your baseball ump argument & really don't give a care about it. Two different sports industries, two different bargaining collectives. One has nothing to do with the other beyond perhaps setting a precedent. I realize that baseball & umpiring is a topic that you know - I appreciate that. I simply don't find it to be applicable to this situation.
     
  19. Lancer 1

    Lancer 1 Eternal Optimist

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    I disagree.

    From what I saw, the Packers defender had the ball in both of his arms & pressed against his chest, and Tate had 1 arm on the ball as they both went to the ground. The referee that was cloest to the play was the one signaling touchback, and the one who came running from farther away was the one who called it a touchdown.

    Between the the guy with the white hat who is supposed to be in charge & the replay technology that is availible to them both on the sidelines & in the booth upstairs, the fact that they still couldn't get this right is mystifying.
     
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  20. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    do really think the NFL cares about the fans more than the Corporations with the big $$$$.
     
  21. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    the refs want to get paid like baseball
     
  22. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    No I don't - which is EXACTLY what I've been saying. The moneyed interests are more important than any other part of the game.
     
  23. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    That's a starting point. It doesn't have to be a show-stopper. But, just as they did with the players, the owners want to keep everything that they possibly can for themselves. So of course you start high with your demands - you know that you'll be making some concessions.

    That's why it's called collective bargaining.
     
  24. Sydalish

    Sydalish Addicted to Sports

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    Gotta disagree with you on this one man.

    Jennings caught the ball, had both arms wrapped around it and held it to his chest. Tate came in with a one-armed reach around halfway through the catch. He didn't even have control of the ball while he was touching it. They may not have been able to overturn the TD to an INT, based on what they can and cannot review (I'm still not 100% on the exact rules on that btw). However, they can overturn the TD. They do that all the time, just ask M80 after week 2 :p

    Below is an EXCELLENT shot that shows Tate didn't catch that ball, Jennings did. Incomplete, INT whatever... it wasn't a TD.

    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    The problem with that theory, is the difficulty of explaining how (and remember, no cameras had
    an unobstructed view of the ball, on the way to the ground) a guy with the ball supposedly in both hands,
    well tucked in to his body, loses it to a guy who supposedly only has an arm in the mix.

    As I wrote last night, replay was not conclusive (as it MUST be, to justify overruling)...and had the initial
    call been interception, that probably would have (and should have) stood. It was a freak play that could've been reasonably called either way...that shouldn't have been overruled either way.
    I understand the frustration...we all know what we saw. My point all along is that though the
    conclusion is unsettling, the idea that some unfair tragedy was forced on the Packers just
    isn't supported by a rational evaluation of what we saw happen, and the published rules.
     
  26. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I can say I cannot ever recall a PI on a Hail Mary Pass.
     
  27. Sydalish

    Sydalish Addicted to Sports

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    This is why I hold them just as responsible as the NFL for all this drama. They want insane salaries and from what I've heard, won't budge on the issue. Bunch of greedy prima donnas all around :p
     
  28. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    The shot above shows them both on the ground & some pretty conclusive evidence as to who was controlling the ball.

    I'm not here to berate the replacement refs - I'm blaming the greed that has created this situation to the detriment of the game.
     
  29. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Well, it was ruled a TD.
    Tate ended up with the ball, in the endzone.
    No replay showed the ball ever hitting the ground.
    So, on what grounds do you overrule?
     
  30. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    That's what you get when you hire doctors, lawyers, & accountants to do the job part-time. You've already dipped into the privileged class. ;)

    And Lance, to your question above, you overrule on the grounds that it was an interception, not a catch. That's a valid conclusion.
     

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