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Any takers on Carimi/Castonzo?

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Bergo23, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. Bergo23

    Bergo23 BoltTalker

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    Most pundits have us taking Dline, but isn't it about time to show the world what the Canadian can do? Big Vaughn Martin is READY in my estimation.

    There are several factors, which point me to Carimi, it means KC wouldn't get him, and they do NOT need help with their run game (I thin similar gamesmanship happened a couple of years ago with the Donk's getting the RB from Georgia that they knew we were interested in). Both Castonzo and Carimi would be EXTREMELY safe picks...both high character guys with TONS of experience. I also like the idea of having the potential to shift to LT should anything ever happen to Big Mac and his iffy spine.

    It just occured to me that the pick could weaken KC's pick possibilities, and boost our running game at the same time. Especially if Castonzo is gone....it would mean the strong run blocking Tackles would be off the board by KC (and I think its a strong possibility that the NYG would take on of those tackles) pick too.
     
  2. DenverBolt67

    DenverBolt67 BoltTalker

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    I would much rather take one of them then trade multiple picks to move up and get a DE or OLB. We need all the picks we can get, and shoring up or OL would be a good thing
     
  3. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    If there was such a rush that we couldn't get a DE or a decent OLB (Kerrigan) then I could see us getting Carimi. Castanzo is more of a left tackle and not the road grader we need at RT.
     
  4. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Yes. If we take Gabe Carimi we have the best O-line in the league, or at the very least top 5. We don't run the same system as teams like Indy, New England, New Orleans etc... Our passing game is heavily dependent on 5 and 7 step drops and keeping Rivers clean as possible.

    Watching Oakland curb stomp our O-line in the 4th quarter of the first game, and the entire 2nd game exposed the blueprint on how to stop our offense....just rush the **** out of Rivers.
     
  5. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Vaughn Martin is ready for what exactly? He has 1 sack and 12 tackles total in his career. At this point, he's a rotational player, not a true starter.

    If there's a DE or OLB of similar quality on the board at #18, then I wouldn't go O-line that early. I've said it before.... our defensive needs are greater.
     
  6. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    You should not be expecting much more from him than that at this point. He was/is a developmental player. He is huge, and strong, but needed hand and foot work when he got here.

    I expect to see more from him this season, welll I did... Depends on if there are any SCs or TCs this year...
     
  7. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    What I've heard from Kevin Acee and some other SDUT reporters, so take it with a grain of salt, is that Martin's come a long way and has a long way to go. Don't forget, and I love this guy for his potential, he played canadian football for only a few years, he's still learning alot of things that many players learn in college. I definitely think they're going to rotate him in alot more along with another OG. But we absolutely need another starter at DE, and after the first round past Heyward there's nothing there.

    I'm good with Carimi only if we have no DE/OLB available and can't trade out. I think if we get Orlando Franklin in the second or Marcus Gilbert in the third it won't be quite as good as Carimi but it'll lead to one hell of a good OL
     
  8. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Luis Castillo played all 16 games last year, and had 26 tackles and 2.5 sacks......are we gonna talk about replacing him?:icon_shrug:

    This conversation is eerily similar to the one we had 2 years ago about Tyson Jackson. Every mock, every expert, every Kiper wannabe douche had us taking Tyson Jackson 16th overall. As it turned out the Chiefs took him 3rd overall, and he has made little or not great impact on their defense.

    The point is 3-4 DEs are RARELY impact players, its just the nature of the position.
     
  9. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Right, but we're not drafting based on stats. We just need someone who won't get washed out half the freakin time (aka not Cesaire).
    If Martin's up for it, hell, why not. But everything I read says he's not ready. Maybe pre-draft BS, maybe not. I'd go with 'not' from what I saw of him last year. He didn't look any better than Cesaire. So maybe he improves enough, but I'd sure want to hedge that bet with a decent draft pick (assuming AJ can manage that).
     
  10. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Then I would argue why not Cam Thomas or Ogemdi Nwagbuo? Is not getting washed out such a tough assignment that we need to spend a top 20 pick to address it?

    Most of the best 3-4 DEs in the league were 3 round picks or later, with the exception of Seymour who I've even seen Patriot fans criticize for his lack of actuall impact on the game. He was a good player for them, but never a crucuial part of their defense. They never folded without him, as evidence of the 2007 season.
     
  11. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    If Cam Thomas could do it, then I'm all for it. I hope we see more of him at DE this preseason (assuming there is a preseason).
    But back to the reason why 3-4 DE is important: cause if dudes do get washed out, the OL is free to hit the 2nd level and clean up the LBs, or nullify pass rush from LBs.

    If you can get a DE who's going to be a handful in the 2nd or later, that's great. But we haven't had much luck there.
     
  12. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Ty Warren
    Ziggy Hood
    Halota Ngata (he's the DE not the NT)
    Marcus Spears
    Glenn Dorsey (not drafted that way)

    There have been 3-4DEs in the first, if you add Seymour, it would suggest that those selected in the first make a big impact on their teams with the exception of Spears who's been tolerable, and Dorsey. The issue is just picking a good 3-4 DE and this year there's a ton of them.

    And the Patriots have used lately Vince Wilfork at DE and Ron Brace (backup NT) starting at NT, we saw that when they played us this year. I don't think it works well because you want your DE to have at least some mobility and some ability to move off blockers not just clog the middle. I think Thomas should keep working ONLY at NT because we need to rotate Garay out more to keep them both fresh. We need a DE to start besides Castillo and put Martin/OG/Cesaire as backups

    As to replacing Castillo, I'm all for it but one problem at a time please. I'm not putting two rookie DEs out there AND at least lately Castillo has been solid/tolerable.
     
  13. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    1. Both Ngata and Wilfork were drafted as NTs, and really the Ravens and Patriots run a lot more 4-3 these days than people realize, almost 50/50.

    2. I guarantee if we offered any of those other teams the 18 pick for their player....they'd accept in a heartbeat and laugh their asses off all the way home. Hell the Patriots took a 1st two years down the line for Seymour back in 2009.

    I'm willing to accept the possibility that I'm just out of touch with the importance of the position. But it seems to me that just like OGs and RBs you can find serviceable players in any round, and the future trade value is likely never to be equal to what you spent on the player. We should absolutely draft a 5 tech in this draft....but not in the 1st round.
     
  14. CoronaDoug

    CoronaDoug Well-Known Member

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    Anthony "T-Bone" Castonzo


    [​IMG]
     
  15. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Did someone discover the wacky tobacky? I'm not going to be one to point fingers and say that our OL is in the bottom 1/3 of the league, but in order for (1) player to make a line the best in the league they'd likely already have to be Top 5 to begin with; and to jump to Top 5 probably having to be Top 10-ish already. We're middle-third... not utterly terrible, but not great either. Dielman's the only one who really plays with any attitude and mean streak and even he had, by his standards, a down year last season.

    Had you said that if Cleveland added Carimi they'd be the Top OL in the league, I would have wholeheartedly agreed. They have the top LT in the league, a top 7 LG, a Top 5 center, and would be adding a potential future Top 5-7 RT. I say potential because it's naive to assume that Carimi or any OT in this draft comes in and is a stud from Day One. ALL rookie linemen struggle initially. Joe Thomas and Jake Long had struggles and they were some of the consensus best LT prospects to come out since Walter Jones. The differential in the average strength and quality of defender faced (as well as the complexity of defensive schemes) from college to the pro's is significant.

    Though there's something I feel the need to point out about your statement that is true. Our system is different... we do depend more on 5- and 7-step drops than most other teams... and as such we need to get off this kick that it's more important to have a "road-grading" RT. In our scheme, having an RT with high-end pass-blocking is more important than high-end run-blocking. To be honest, I'm not convinced that a player like Costonzo or Derek Sherrod wouldn't be a better fit for our particular brand of offense than Carimi; and it's part of the reason why I'm fairly high on guys like James Carpenter, Orlando Franklin, and James Brewer over guys like Carimi and Cannon. In our offense it doesn't matter if you can road-grade, if you can't effectively pass-blocking for a longer pocket and can't get out of your stance quick enough to at least effectively land your initial punch on your assigned man you're pretty worthless to us except as a goal-line OL.
     
  16. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    I wish AJ takes Carimi if the top 2 WRs and DEs are off the board. We dont need a OLB that badly, especially not if we have to reach for an average one. we dont need another 1st round corner. and no other position provides us with value and fills a need

    Carimi replacing clary would help the team more than any other position we could draft
     
  17. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    The fact is, I don't think you understand the position. If you did, you'd be able to look at this draft class and see that by the time pick #50 in this draft rolls around then 90% of the starting caliber 5-Technique players will likely already be off the board. Half the DT's in this class aren't capable of playing the position at a high level, particularly in a 1-gap system. Drake Nevis, Jurrell Casey, most likely Stephen Paea... not ideal or even preferable mold for 5-Technique players and are all out of their element playing that position.

    Also, if you think that Baltimore would swap pick #18 for Haloti Ngata... and laugh all the way to the bank... you're seriously on drugs. But let's ignore the fact that the teams that are investing those high picks in 5-Techniques (Kansas City aside) are all perennially successful teams (Green Bay, New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Dallas) who have all (with the exception of Dallas) gotten closer to a Lombardi than we have under their current management; because really all 5-Techniques do is "eat blocks" right? NOT.

    There's a big difference between trading away a 30 year old 5-Technique who is a year removed from being a UFA that will demand a massive payday for a future 1st (which let's be honest, being that it was the Raiders' future 1st stood a better chance to be a Top 10 pick than it did to be a bottom 15 pick) and being willing to sell off a younger, proven 5-Tech who has flourished in your system for a 1st. If someone had tried to trade for Seymour back when he was in his mid to late 20's it likely would have cost nearly double to acquire him.

    The Pats don't run scheme specific anymore, though a good amount of that is due to the fact that 1) The were having trouble producing effective pass-rush out of their base 3-4 and 2) They may well have missed Seymour more than they anticipated. That said, they move Wilfork around quite a bit. He played the 0-Tech, the 5-Tech, and the 3-Tech last season, and each of the three in almost every game. Ngata does much of the same and even on occasion lines up as an LDE in their four downed-linemen sets. Hood's been buried behind two of the better 5-Tech's in the business (Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel), but he showed his value in the later third of the 2010 season and playoffs when Smith went on IR.

    The issue is that with the increasing prevalence and growing popularity of the 3-4 schemes it's becoming harder and harder to get 3-4 specific players in the draft later like it was even as recently as 2-3 years ago; because - shock and awe - the guys who project as the best 3-4 DL also tend to project quite favorably to most 4-3 schemes as well. Very rarely are you going to find a player who is "strictly a 3-4 DE" at the next level anymore. You can get developmental guys in the mid and later rounds (as Green Bay showed with Mike Neal - though even he cost a 3rd rounder) but you have to have the starters ahead of them to buy them time to develop (which GB has had in Cullen Jenkins, Ryan Pickett, and to lesser extents Johnny Jolly and Justin Harrell); and guess what? Green Bay is projected as a threat to take another 3-4 DE early this year because of Jenkins' free agency status and Johnny Jolly likely being up for a 1-year suspension if not major jail time.
     
  18. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    By what are you defining the "Top 2" DE's? Dareus and Fairley? Dareus and Jordan? Throwing out Dareus because we have no hope of touching him and just speaking Jordan and Watt?

    If Green and Jones (a given) are gone and Watt and Jordan (and Dareus and Fairley) are too... and we can't trade back... the better year one value is actually making the 4-5 pick reach for Cameron Heyward and then targeting a 2nd round RT. Like it or not, this team is more than one piece away from being a champion (or even a championship contender - given the current holes and uncertainty created by the lack of free agency to this point). I do agree that the best strategy in these times of uncertainty is to bolster the trenches as much as possible. However a first 2 rounds product of Heyward-Orlando Franklin/Marcus Gilbert/Danny Watkins-OLB/ILB/CB is of greater value than Carimi-Bailey/Jenkins/Ballard- OLB/WR/ILB/CB.
     
  19. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    1. I agree with that. But I'm saying by adding Carimi we will eventually (if not immediately) improve what is arguably the weakest link in our offense with a 1st round caliber player, and our status as one of the best O-lines in the league will be undisputable.

    2. I'm much more comfortable moving a LT to RT than trying to move a natural guard like Franklin and Carpenter. (Brewer blows, not even worth mentioning). Carimi is a far better pass protector than anyone you mentioned, he projects to RT very weel, and trying to put him in the same class with the 360lb Marcus Cannon is rediculous. Carimi is in the 315-320 range, much lighter on his feet.
     
  20. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    I don't know where you're seeing a "natural" guard in Carpenter. He's perfectly capable of playing RT - and in fact would be making the same LT to RT transition that Carimi would. Franklin is much of the same - I agree he's a bit more risky than guys like Carpenter or Gilbert - but he's also got a higher ceiling. Also, Cannon's just as "light on his feet" as Carimi - his lateral agility is off the charts for someone his size and to do so at the greater size is just as impressive - his knock is that he doesn't get off the snap quick enough.

    Look, I'm not debating that Gabe Carimi isn't a special talent - however what I am saying is that he/him specifically is not a greater need to the success of this team as someone in the trench on the other side of the ball is. Having a potentially elite RT is a luxury, you don't have to have one to have a potent offense. Look at the perennially top 3-4 defenses, every single one of them has an elite or near elite 5-Technique DE.
     
  21. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I'm going to make bullet points...

    1. I know that most of the 5 techs people ARE AWARE OF will be gone by pick 50. But I also know the Chargers have interviewed players like Sione Fua, Zach Clayton, Ollie Ogbu etc.... players usually known as 1-gap guys with wide bodies and good lower body strength. So I ask why the hell not? What is Cameron Jordan going to contribute that one of these players can't? They all can take on double teams, which is 90% of the job description.

    2. Not what I meant at all!!! I meant other than Ngata and Wilfork (natural NTs that they actually are) the other 3-4 DE's Anteater listed would all be more than available if we offered up our 1st. You think the Steelers would turn down the 18th overall pick for Ziggy Hood? And speaking of 330+lb men playing 3-4 DE great, why wouldn't we spend a 2nd or 3rd round pick on a guy like Kendrick Ellis or Jerrell Powe? They are obviously 2-gap guys.

    3. The Patriots are in a Super Bowl window. If their motivation was what you say it was it was EXTREMELY arrogant to trade away one of their pivotal defensive players and leaders for a pick they wouldn't recieve for another 2 years......unless of course like me, they didn't view him as that pivotal.

    BTW I think like Baltimore and New England we should start running more 4-3.
     
  22. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    By top 2, i meant the Watt and Jordan since i completely forgot about the other 2 guys since we have 0% shot at either. I know we dont really have a shot at Green, but Julio isnt a complete pipe dream.
    I wouldnt draft Heyward in the 3rd round, let alone waste a 1st on him!! The guy is a bum! Id rather have a 30+ year old Cesaire than him
    I know we are more than one piece away, but drafting a top flight RT would help the entire offense. I mean if we have a stud like rivers, shouldnt we do everything we can to make sure hes upright on every play? I mean he was sacked almsot 40 times last year, imagine if he was a little better protected. Also, a real run blocking RT like carimi would actually help us have a real running game! Clary and Vaz are both horrible run blockers! Mathews/Tolbert averaged more than a full yard more per carry while running towards the left than they did the right (4.9 to 3.7). Like i said, a studt RT is a lot more important than a 2nd tier DE (or in heywards case, a 4th tier). Hell, i would take ANY of the guys you listed as 2nd round DE over Heyward, so yes, id take Carimi/and of those guys over Heyward-franklin/gilbert/watkins

    I know there are alot of knocks on carimi, but most of them basically just say hes a better fit as a RT than LT, but thats exactly what we need. The guy was a 4 year starter in the big 10, and was the best linemen on a team that featured THREE rushers this year that had 995 yards or more THIS YEAR. To me, that means that every team knew the badgers were running on every play, yet could do NOTHING to stop them. And its not like these were 3 elite RBs. John Clay (1012 yards, 14 TDs this year) probably wont even be drafted this year, and if he is, it will be real late. Not sure about the other 2 yet, but so far, i would say they are a product of that great Wisconsin OL.

    BTW, for those of you who watch BIG 10 as closely as i do (Go wolverines!), anyone want to tell me how Heyward did when he went face to face with Carimi? :icon_rofl:
     
  23. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    In regards to:

    1.) Some of those guys would make sense if we ran a 2-gap 3-4 where all that was expected of the 5-Techniques was occupying double-teams to keep the linebackers clean, then I agree. However, that's not what Manusky ran at any point in San Francisco and certainly not what was preached when he was here previously under Wade - who ran a Bum Phillips 1-gap 3-4. In the 1-gap (and I'm feeling a bit redundant because I'm fairly certain this isn't new information to you; sorry if it comes off as attitude-ish), your DE's are asked considerably more to provide pass-rush and pocket-collapse. And that's where guys like Fua, Powe, and to a lesser extent Ogbu just don't fit - they're all anchor and no shed-and-pursue. As to Ogbu and Clayton, they're likely UDFA's and considering that we have 2 DE's presently on the roster (and only 5 total DL), we're going to end up signing at least 2-3 free agent DL (even if we draft 1 or 2) so why shouldn't we be bringing in guys for visits that are younger and that we can actually talk to right now (since with the rifts between the NFLPA* and ownership, there is no permitted conversation between free agents and teams)? Another interesting question to bring up - and I don't know this but it stands out to me - how many guys that we've brought in for visits during AJ's tenure have we actually ended up drafting? Just in a general and versus signing later as UDFA's?

    2. No I don't think the Steelers would trade Hood for the 18th overall. It's not how the Rooneys and Kevin Colbert do business. Rookies rarely start on their team - they sit and develop and wait until the guy ahead of them's contract runs out and then they move up a rung on the ladder. If they happen to outplay the guy above them in their limited action you might see the guy in front of them traded, but very rarely does that happen because their coaching staff and organization values veteran leadership. Kenrick Ellis has possibilities as a 3-4 DE, but his pass-rush is limited and me personally, and it's seemed to be a route AJ's followed in the past, I steer clear of guys who got booted from major programs because they couldn't put down the ganj. Powe, I already covered. If your'e going to bring up a 2nd rounder - you'd at least ought to mention Terrell McClain but even he doesn't have the ceiling or the floor for that matter that the first round guys do.

    3. Was it arrogant? Yes. The Pats are a pretty damn arrogant organization... or hasn't that occurred to people yet? Logan Mankins was franchised even though Robert Kraft is on record as saying he has no intention of giving him a long-term deal because Mankins doesn't fit/follow "The Patriot Way". Bill Belichick is arrogant as all get out. The other face of their franchise Tom Barbie is smug and arrogant as all get out. They also likely weren't expecting Ty Warren to tear his labrum and having to depend on recycled former 1st-round-bust Gerard Warren to see regular minutes in his stead. The Patriot Way is that literally no one player is greater than the team - and yes that includes Tom Terrific. If by some miracle - or pact with the devil - New England managed to get hold of a pick in 2012 that would net them Andrew Luck - we'd likely see them groom Luck for a year or two and then trade Brady while they could still recoup multiple 1sts for his mid-30's butt. Arrogance is as prevalent in the air in Boston as hydrogen.
     

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