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Can Anyone Find or Do You Know.....

Discussion in 'American Football' started by boltsnow, Sep 13, 2007.

  1. boltsnow

    boltsnow BoltTalker

    Oct 13, 2006
    What the actual wordage is in regards to "illegal spying?". BB said that he apologized and that he must have misunderstood the rules as they were written. I would love to know exactly how the wordage is to see just how much of a moron he really is.:icon_huh:
  2. reddenedbeard

    reddenedbeard Well-Known Member

    Aug 2, 2006
    It was in one of the earlier articles .. It seemed pretty straight forward to me .. Something like no cameras or recording devices are allowed on the field or locker rooms during the game.
  3. sdbound

    sdbound Well-Known Member

    Jul 21, 2006
    Patriots under investigation for following rules, guidelines violations ...
    1. Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

    2. And, a memo from Ray Anderson, NFL head of football operations, to head coaches and GMs on Sept. 6, 2006 said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."
  4. mizzouchargerfan

    mizzouchargerfan BoltTalker

    Mar 9, 2006
    sounds pretty clear cut and dry, either Beli is a flat out cheater or he doesn't have a lot between the ears for not understanding a ruling a 3rd grader could get.:icon_eek:
  5. boltsnow

    boltsnow BoltTalker

    Oct 13, 2006
    Hey thanks SDBOUND!!!

    Like the previous poster said, how can you not understand or misinterperate that? Every team may be cheating to some sort, but when a letter comes out stating that......and you still do it......you deserve whatever the punishment is handed down. You are acting like you are above the NFL.
  6. Concudan

    Concudan Meh... Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 5, 2006

    San Diego Chargers coach Norv Turner laid out the ground rules when he addressed his team on Monday, one day after beating the Bears in the season opener.

    n shifting his team's focus to the next opponent on the schedule -- the New England Patriots this Sunday -- Turner didn't want his players speaking of revenge for last season's playoff loss. He didn't want anybody dwelling on the anger that swelled after a few Patriots mocked the post-sack celebration of Chargers linebacker Shawne Merriman following that defeat.

    Most of all, he didn't want his players to take a lackadaisical approach in terms of protecting the Chargers' game plan. To that end, Turner told the players that their playbooks would be locked up during their Saturday afternoon walk-through at Gillette Stadium. That was a guarantee.

    Normally, Turner might not be so overly paranoid about entering another team's stadium. But ever since news spread that the Patriots were videotaping the defensive signals of the New York Jets during New England's 38-14 win last Sunday, extra precautions were being made.

    "Norv wanted us to know that he was going to be careful," one Chargers player said. "We'd already heard a lot of things about the Patriots in the past. But what happened this week has made everybody a lot more cautious. He was even talking about keeping Patriots employees from entering our hotel."

    But will Turner and the Chargers be as cautious in the Week 3 game at Green Bay? Or before upcoming games against AFC West foes Kansas City, Denver and Oakland? Just how widespread is the illegal videotaping of signals?

    Not very, according to numerous league and team officials contacted this week. Legal spying, stealing signals, the cat-and-mouse gamesmanship -- that's done by every team. But illegal spying through the use of videotape? Not common at all, according to sources who wished to remain anonymous. Most teams adhere to the strict policies in the league's Game Operations Manual that prohibit video recording devices on the field, in the coaches' booth and in the locker room during games.

    "There isn't a team in the league that doesn't try to steal signals [but] I haven't heard about teams recording footage like the Patriots were," said one longtime NFL assistant coach. "But you can bet everybody is trying to steal in some way. In fact, you can go to any NFL game and you'll find some coach whose sole job is to look for defensive signals."

    Added one NFC personnel director: "What the Patriots did is extremely rare because it's against the rules. It's one of those things that if it's not Bill Belichick involved, you wonder if the coach survives something like that. What is more normal is something like a guy sitting in a press box trying to steal signs by looking at the coaches. That's why the home team usually has its back to the press box when they're in their own stadium."

    While it may be difficult to believe Belichick's Patriots are the only ones using the latest video technology to their advantage, the fact is they're the only ones who have been caught. If other teams knew opponents were illegally videotaping their signals, they'd likely alert league and stadium security, much like the Jets did Sunday at the Meadowlands.

    "This is the first time I've heard of somebody doing what New England did," one AFC personnel director said. "It wouldn't surprise me if somebody else has tried it in the past but the bottom line is that it's illegal. We all get the same memos from the league each season telling us what we can't do."

    Added an NFC general manager: "The accusation far outweighs what is actually happening. This isn't rampant throughout the league. Now, the arrogance of thinking you could get away with it? That is the beauty of this. … It's the height of arrogance."

    An AFC executive suggested that Belichick "probably got greedy and let whatever issues he has with [Jets coach Eric] Mangini get the best of him."

    Another current assistant coach said the legal stealing of signals is just "good coaching. But when you start using video equipment to steal signs, you're off the reservation. I think that's a whole different matter. That goes against everything we've been taught as coaches."

    That's one reason illegal videotaping of signals isn't widespread. Here's another reason: It may not be worth the risk of getting caught.

    Sources say there is only so much that can be gained by stealing signals. Generally, coaches want to know only two things about the defense: (1) When a blitz is coming; and (2) What kind of coverage the defense is going to play. That type of information can be gleaned easily from other forms -- legal forms -- of spying.

    Along with using an assistant coach to chart signals during games, there is only one other common way teams steal signs -- by having somebody do it in advance. An NFC scout said that in scouting games of future opponents, all teams look for a number of things including injuries, personnel moves and signals. However, just as with having an assistant watch for signals during a game, that information is used generally for future preparation, not for current contests as the Patriots were apparently trying to do at halftime Sunday.

    And even when teams do pick up those hints for future games, the impact may be minimal once the contest is under way.

    "New England realistically may have been able to catch one or two plays from doing that and they could've had somebody in the press box getting the same information," said former Atlanta Falcons general manager Ken Herock, who also worked as an executive in Oakland and Green Bay. "And what you're actually talking about is one or two plays out of about 60 snaps a game. That really isn't a great advantage."

    Plus, there is no guarantee a team will capitalize when it knows what plays are coming. A pass can be dropped, a block missed or a snap fumbled. There also are these likelihoods: A team can change its signs frequently, which often happens in the NFL, or a coach can confuse his own players with too much information about opponents.

    Besides, it's not as though the defense isn't taking its own precautions.

    Chiefs head coach Herm Edwards said stealing signals -- the legal way -- has become so widespread that most defensive coaches use elaborate systems to communicate with players.

    "Just look at some of the middle linebackers now playing," Edwards said. "They're wearing huge wristbands with plays on them just like quarterbacks do. That's so they can look at a number on their wrists and know what the coach on the sideline wants to run. And of course, you have three different people sending in different signals so nobody can pick up on what you're doing. That's how crazy it has gotten."

    Added former NFL coach Chuck Knox: "I never had that feeling that somebody was spying from one side to the other because most of the time you give a dummy signal. You keep changing them up. Then you have two guys on the sidelines giving them. I think it's a whole lot about nothing."

    Despite whatever penalties are handed down to the Patriots, expect the legal spy games to continue, at least until the NFL institutes an audio headset for the defense similar to the system used by quarterbacks get plays from the sidelines. And if you're thinking of doing something illegal? Seeing the Patriots get caught should act as a deterrent to any team contemplating such an action.

    "In the NFL, in football in general, when you have all the players and somebody is doing that, it gets out," Knox said. "There are no secrets."

    Jeffri Chadiha is a senior writer for ESPN.com. Matt Mosley and Mike Sando also contributed to this report.
  7. Concudan

    Concudan Meh... Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 5, 2006

    Week after week, NFL scouts seated in stadium press boxes train their binoculars on coaches responsible for sending in defensive plays via hand signals. They watch intently and whisper what they see into small audio recorders.

    "Ten minutes left in the second quarter, third-and-7, right hand to shoulder, back down to hip, up to hat."

    Scouts funnel these observations to their teams' offensive coaching staffs, hoping to link the opponents' defensive signals to specific blitzes, fronts and coverages.

    It's all legal under NFL rules, with one stipulation: absolutely no video recordings allowed.

    The illegal tactics the New England Patriots evidently employed Sunday against the New York Jets -- capturing signals and corresponding audio with a sideline camera -- might have allowed the Patriots to sniff out blitzes had security officials not intervened, scouts and coaches said.

    "With the computer and video technology, you can dial it up at halftime," an AFC personnel evaluator said. "You can say, 'This is their such-and-such blitz. We'll give you the signal, the code word, and let you know it's coming.'"

    Others weren't so sure.

    "Would you trust the information?" an NFC general manager asked. "There is so much room for error. Why bother?"

    Still, there has been a concern in the league for the past couple of years about the escalation of spying based on the technology available.

    Take, for example, the use of radio helmet technology that is supposed to cut off the communications between the sidelines and the quarterback when there are 15 seconds left on the play clock. Teams might seek to illegally extend that communication time through use of a walkie-talkie that taps into the radio frequency of the helmet. Thus, a late shift in defensive coverage could be relayed to the quarterback, who could then audible to an appropriate play.

    And while teams can legally take still photos on each play that help in the in-game analysis of formations and alignments, the addition of illegal video might enhance that analysis and provide a faster processing time.

    However New England was planning to use its video, it allegedly wasn't the first time.

    Green Bay officials removed a New England cameraman from the sideline during the Patriots' 35-0 victory at Lambeau Field last season. As word filtered through league channels, Indianapolis officials were suspicious enough to remove all non-network cameras from the RCA Dome before the Colts and Patriots played in the most recent AFC title game, scouts said.

    Against that backdrop, the NFL nearly voted for arming select defensive players with radio headsets, removing the need for hand signals. The matter may be brought up again in the wake of the Patriots controversy.

    Existing rules entitle scouts to press box seats for games involving their teams' next two opponents. Scouts monitor hand signals for information that could help their coaching staffs during games, but it's unclear how much the information impacts the outcome of games.

    "You can only talk [into the recorder] so fast and then to try to come up with the gestures they are doing, it's tough," an NFC scout said. "They do it fast. They are used to doing it, the linebackers are used to seeing it. Half the time I didn't get it."

    Capturing hand signals on video would facilitate a more thorough analysis. Teams could more confidently differentiate between dummy signals and real ones by determining over time which ones correlated with on-field actions. Teams could show the video to players as a teaching tool. And they could make more informed adjustments, at least in theory.

    Late last season, the Miami Dolphins claimed to have solved the Patriots' audibles by studying audio tapes of quarterback Tom Brady making calls at the line of scrimmage. Brady branded those claims a "crock" at the time and said the Dolphins wouldn't have gained an advantage anyway.

    Scouts familiar with the recent spy controversy said New England's camera featured a small but powerful microphone designed to pick up audio from the Jets' defensive huddle. The NFC scout said the Patriots also could have gained an additional advantage by piping the audio and video into their offensive coaches' booth.

    Some coaching staffs take greater care to disguise their signals, scouts said. Others show less concern, holding up two fingers to indicate Cover 2, for example. Scouts have noticed some defensive coaches sending in two numbers, one for the front alignment and the other for the coverage or blitz.

    "We are just looking for blitzes or games up front," the NFC scout said, echoing what others said. "Some guys hide it, some guys do not. Maybe they switch it up a little, but these [players] aren't all rocket scientists. It takes some of them six weeks to get down one signal."

    Mike Sando covers the NFL for ESPN.com. John Clayton also contributed to this report.
  8. Concudan

    Concudan Meh... Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 5, 2006
    NFL's no-video rule

    The "Game Operations Manual" states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." The manual states that "all video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead." NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from a New England video assistant on the Patriots' sideline when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Taping any signals is prohibited.
  9. Concudan

    Concudan Meh... Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 5, 2006

    here's spying and lying in the NFL? Who would have guessed it?
    Star-Telegram Staff Writer

    Now that I've recovered from the initial shock -- shock, I tell you -- over learning that spying and lying happens in football, let me add background vocals to David Thomas' tune in yesterday's newspaper.

    With the New England Patriots coming to town in a month -- thank you, Jesus -- that sinister Coach Unabomber has now been exposed as a cheating snake.

    Possible sideline scene at Texas Stadium on Oct. 14:

    "Coach Belichick! Coach Belichick! Our totally illegal video recorder that we smuggled in here by using Rowdy's fake head has turned up this information: Roy Williams can't cover anybody."

    Under the hood of his gray sweatshirt, coach Belichick speaks excitedly into his headset mike: "I never knew. Go deep, Tom! Throw at No. 31!"

    Football-wise, if you are quick enough, and smart enough, let's assume there are competitive advantages to be gained by using sideline video to break down the opposition's defensive hand signals. Which is why the NFL has rules preventing those things.

    The emphasis, of course, is on being quick and smart, two areas where Bill Belichick has been known to excel.

    At the moment, however, I personally can't see a Belichick, or Miami's Cam Cameron (Sunday's opposing coach) really concerned over having to use anything illegal to break the sacred code of the "Phillips 3-4."

    Actually, Cameron has to be wondering, and he's not alone, what the Giants were thinking in the season opener Sunday night. Not that 35 points wasn't a strong offensive statement, but offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride definitely did the Cowboys a favor by not constantly pounding the left side of the secondary.

    Fill-in cornerback Jacques Reeves was holding on by his fingernails as it was, and then his main area of "help" on that side was Roy, the world's most overrated, four-years-running Pro Bowl safety.

    Bet you this: Wade Phillips and his defensive coordinator, Brian Stewart, got a quick dose Sunday night of the anguish Mike Zimmer and Bill Parcells previously experienced in the ongoing saga of what-to-do-with-Roy.

    Phillips thought he had it all figured out, and maybe he did, until cornerback Terence Newman came up lame. That changed how Phillips planned to use Williams, but obviously, one of the team's highest-paid, most-decorated players should never be a major liability under any circumstances.

    Saddest scene of the night in the opener:

    On the Giants' final touchdown, a Plaxico Burress catch between Reeves and Williams, Roy whirled around and had a disgusted, both palms-up gesture for the cornerback. Like it was Reeves' fault.

    As it turned out, Roy made the major mistake on the play because he blew inside coverage. Regardless, the mere fact he was publicly showing up his young teammate says something about Williams that Phillips maybe didn't know but needed to find out.

    It will be interesting to see what plan Phillips will devise for Sunday in Miami, when his defense will face an opponent much more offensively challenged than the Giants.

    And speaking of interesting to see, from a Cowboys angle, there are a couple of other areas that deserve attention:

    One would be how Phillips and Jerry Jones handle the comments of receiver Terry Glenn, who totally contradicted management's version of his injury situation.

    Phillips said straight-up that Glenn's latest knee problem was "a new injury," meaning it was unrelated to what caused Glenn to miss all of training camp. Jones also gave us the "new injury" version.

    Glenn's answer to Ed Werder of ESPN last weekend: "Anybody saying this injury is not related to the other injury -- BS. This would never have happened if I hadn't been hurt already."

    In other words, Glenn came back to practice too quickly, for which he blamed himself. But that return timing is mainly a team responsibility, and when the new injury happened, there was lying to cover it up.

    Again, I'm absolutely shocked there could be untruth going on at Valley Ranch. But most of the time, the media is guessing about whether it happened. This time, however, Glenn confirmed it. Back at ya, Wade and Jerry.

    Or as injured Greg Ellis said Wednesday at Valley Ranch when asked about the Terry Glenn case, "Some people are now starting to think that maybe I knew what I was talking about after all."

    Ellis had been mocked by some in the local media for not returning to the practice field as quickly as Cow management and Phillips have been hinting he should have.

    Me, I never doubted Greg Ellis. Can't say the same, however, for the other side in this ongoing debate.

    Meanwhile, I'm also waiting on commissioner Roger Goodell to deliver his swift punishment to Belichick and the Pats after reports the NFL has determined New England was using the illegal sideline video recorder last week against the Jets.

    If the hang-'em-high commissioner can hit a quarterback coach -- Wade Wilson -- with five games and a $100,000 fine for doing what we now know was basically nothing that would impact the integrity of the league, how about this Pats case?

    You'd better be tough, Roger. Otherwise, somebody might think that spying and lying is acceptable behavior in the National Football League.

    Imagine that.

    Randy Galloway's Galloway & Co. can be heard weekdays 3-6 p.m. on ESPN/103.3 FM.
    Randy Galloway, 817-390-7760
  10. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

    Aug 3, 2006
    Like the articles explained, high risk for information that is difficult to capitalize on. You'd be better off watching standard game film and analyzing tendencies than trying to suss out what a signal means, especially if the really signal is buried in several fake ones or they're changed from week to week.

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