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Chargers and Allen discussing extension

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by HollywoodLeo, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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  2. Slam

    Slam BoltTalker

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    I would be pleasantly surprised if he plays the full 2016 season
     
  3. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I only put idiots on ignore...

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    Better to receive an extension as opposed to a deflation...
     
  4. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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  5. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    I never called it a mystery when teams are discussing extensions.

    I called it a mystery how the negotiations are going on behind closed doors and who shares the bulk of the blame if/when they fail.
     
  6. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    Also, just because reporters got the scoop on these particular ongoing talks it doesn't mean they get the scoop on all ongoing talks or that said ongoing talks will even be successful.

    If these talks break down and Allen doesn't sign are you going to blame Telesco for not getting it done?
     
  7. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    Of course he will.
     
  8. Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan

    Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    The point is that when there are actual contract negotiations taking place, word ordinarily gets out about that at some point.

    And in Weddle's case we actually have him saying that it never happened, which is a pretty good indication of what happened, or didn't happen in this case.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  10. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    It depends on the circumstances involved.

    For example, when a dumb a$$ GM fails even to make an offer to a 5 time 1st or 2nd team All-Pro player who is begging to have an offer made to him over the course of many months, then it is definitely the GM's fault.

    The issue is whether or not the GM did all he could reasonably do to get the player extended/re-signed (assuming the player is worthy of being extended/re-signed unlike, say, Christ Watt).

    Telesco failed to do this in the cases of Phillips, Franklin, Mathews and Weddle.
     
  11. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Did anyone tell him that negotiations occurred between last years players who left and the team as well. Up until a point that they stopped... The two sides could not agree... But thas none a my buidness....
     
  12. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I'm going to guess that discussing an extension and actually negotiating one are two separate deals. I could be wrong, as I have been told many times before in here by those more learned than I.
     
  13. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Based on the articles I read last year (and I was frustrated when the talks ended so I was paying attention) they were in negotiations. The numbers gap was too wide.

    Now my personal take on this, and I like Weddle, he is a down to earth guy (based on the few time I spoke with him) and he did a plug for the podcast... But my take is the Chargers offered a number, Weddles camp did not like it, they went back and forth. At the time they had both Rivers and Weddle to lock up.
    At a point mid training camp (based off memory) the team said no more negotiations for either until after the season. Weddle did not like that and made it clear.
    I personally doubt he was a locker-room cancer about it, but was unhappy and made it known.
    To make matters worse (again memory not pulling up any articles), after the negotiation halt Rivers got an extension. So I can see Weddle's beef. I can see the team setting a value for him, and as things went deciding to go a different route. It sucks but that is the game.

    Ask Indy fans how they like seeing Manning at the white house with the Broncos....
     
  14. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I understand what you're saying and agree to a point. Here again, Weddle, was in no way close to the performer P Manning was, so there is a difference. I'm not saying he was a bad guy or player just not even close to some that I have witnessed play the game over the last fifty or so years. In my mind he is not worth 8-10 mil with his rapidly declining skills, not that they were all that to begin with.
     
  15. Slam

    Slam BoltTalker

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    if a player wants let's say 30 or 35 million

    and a team only wants to dish out 20 million tops for 4 years

    sure you can try to negotiate but sometimes when two parties are that far off, your negotiations stall...and no deal.


    What's the point if neither wants to give up too much. Weddle wasn't exactly showing himself off as a prime player that he used to be.
     
  16. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Here's what might have happened: David Cantor (Weddle's agent) approaches the FA:

    Cantor: "We'd like to start work on a new contract...we'd expect a minimum of $$, but would prefer $$$...which we think other clubs would pay..."
    Telesco: "We're looking to get younger...would $+incentives be a non-starter?"

    Cantor: "For a guy with EW's résumé? :mad: Hell yes! If it's $+incentives we won't take that as a serious offer!"

    Now, something like that might have happened...or not. I'm in no position to know.
    I'd have liked to have kept Weddle--though his '15 season wasn't great--but at a reasonable price...
    this roster needs help in lots of other places. Can it be legitimately argued that Telesco did something
    vs. absolutely nothing to attempt to keep Weddle? Of course. In fact, that's the only intellectually honest position!

    I'll take your later, watered down "...pretty good indication..." as a better-late-than-never admission
    that you don't know anything more than the rest of us (who freely admit to not knowing what happened) :)
     
  17. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Sorry, but your hypothetical version ignores and is contrary to what Weddle himself said happened. Weddle indicated that he approached the team during the 2014 season to get an extension and they refused to negotiate with him.

    Then, he approached the team again after the 2014 season and before the 2015 season began to try to work out an extension and the team refused to negotiate. He further added that the team made some comment that they don't sign players to third contracts unless the player is going to be a Hall of Fame player (an asinine strategy if ever there was one).

    The above is not exchanging contract ideas and not being able to work out a deal. That is refusing to negotiate. There is a significant difference between the two concepts.

    From what Weddle said, it seems pretty clear that the team simply wanted to move in a different direction. And that falls on Telesco as GM just like it did with Phillips and Mathews.

    And that's the part that makes me wonder why it so difficult for some to understand what happened here. It isn't as if Telesco has not already done this on multiple occasions with other veterans that he simply didn't want to keep (for whatever reason). He gives them the cold shoulder, basically ignoring them until they are gone. What happened with Weddle is nothing new.

    I don't mind mind Telesco not keeping everyone, but I wish he would not make these bizarre decisions to get rid of players that are obviously still productive and worthy of a roster spot. It is stupid player management, pure and simple.

    Finally, my point about Weddle's comment being a "pretty good indication" was understated for effect. It is incredible the degree to which some will go to try to excuse Telesco's bad moves. Usually, we accept what a witness that was there has to say about what happened absent a clear reason not to believe that witness, especially when what that witness has to say tracks with other information that we know and is otherwise not contradicted by anything.

    Thus, this "we don't know what happened" nonsense is a bunch of crap. We have the uncontradicted statement of a witness that was there which is supported by the other evidence. Unless there is a clear reason not to believe what Weddle is saying, it seems like an exercise of anti-Weddle bias by those on this forum not to accept what he has to say at face value.
     
  18. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I agree that the scenario that you presented can happen, but per Weddle, that isn't what did happen in his case.

    Nobody is saying that a deal is automatic, but you can't ignore what Weddle actually took to play for the Ravens when we all know that he really wanted to stay with the Chargers. That means we could have had him for what the Ravens paid or less had Telesco negotiated in good faith all along and not burned his bridge (which a negotiator should never do in negotiations).

    If we could have re-signed Weddle for what the Ravens paid and under the same terms as are currently in effect in that contract (good early escapability, not too much signing bonus, guaranteed money paid out in two years), I think that would have been a very good signing.

    I don't blame the GM when we try, but don't get the player if the GM made a good attempt such as when we offered Vincent Jackson something $9M per season, but we lost out to the Bucs at $11M per season.

    What I mind is giving a good player the cold shoulder when it appears that the player could have been re-signed fairly easily had we played our cards correctly.
     
  19. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    This is the first time I remember you referencing the testimony of an objective witness!
    Who can--free of prejudice--verify that Weddle's account is entirely accurate?
     
  20. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I do not agree with all of the facts you have set forth, but concerning Weddle's beef, in addition to seeing Rivers extended, he also saw Liuget get extended (at a time when Weddle was the better player) and saw an aging Flowers get a big 4 year contract after only one year with the team.

    And, we signed Lowery to a three year contract at a time when he was the same age as Weddle was when he sought an extension before the 2015 season, but older than Weddle was when he first sought an extension during the 2014 season.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  21. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    The fact that you think it needs to be independently verified shows anti-Weddle bias.

    The better question is why are you doubting what he is saying when there is no evidence that suggests that it is not reliable information.

    Witness testimony is used every day in virtually every court in the land to establish facts. Sometimes there are facts or evidence present that demonstrate that a witness is unreliable. I see none of that here with Weddle.

    So, again, why are you doubting what he has to say?
     
  22. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    That isn't what Weddle said happened.
     
  23. Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan

    Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan Well-Known Member

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  24. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

    Because--as a grown up--I realize that few people are truly objective about themselves.
    I trust Weddle enough ("anti-Weddle bias" ??) :p to give him the benefit of the doubt:
    that he probably believes that he is conveying what happened accurately.

    You are, bizarrely, choosing to interpret Telesco's unwillingness to air dirty laundry as confirmation
    of Weddle's account. :eek: You really got through law school?!? Every day people face off in courts to determine
    whose account is closer to the truth...only a fool believes that one partisan's opinion is definitive.
    In short, Weddle was pleading his case to the fans...fine, I'm glad he tried...but--when you haven't heard
    the other side--you must take one side with a grain of salt. Weddle views it from Weddle's interested perspective.
     
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  25. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    We saw what Telesco did with Phillips. We saw what Telesco did with Mathews. Is it really so hard to accept that Telesco did the same kind of thing with Weddle?

    Weddle made/affirmed his comments after joining the Ravens. He wasn't pleading anything and had no reason misrepresent what happened. He had already signed with the Ravens.

    Even if you assign zero value to Telesco's odd failure to challenge anything Weddle said for well over a year, you still have Weddle's uncontradicted statements, which there appears to be no reason to reject absent good cause.

    If all of the evidence supports only one conclusion, I will draw that conclusion absent a clear reason not to do so. That is where we are here.

    You are the one that somehow wants to take Telesco's silence as some sort of imaginary evidence of contradicting versions of events when there is no indication that such a conflict exists at all.

    Finally, regarding your asinine statements about me and law school, yeah, it is fairly evident based upon the generally clueless posts you have set forth on legal issues that you are way out of your league in arguing legal points with me (a person that has been an attorney for over 20 years), but then again, it wouldn't exactly be the first time now would it?
     
  26. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Well, I appreciate your constant reminders that you've been an attorney for ages,
    because my past experiences with lawyers informs me that they almost always grasp basic logic...
    though my experiences with your bizarre reasoning keep making me wonder how you even passed the LSAT,
    never mind the bar.
    So please...keep reminding me/us that you really do, somehow (even though it's only Texas) :D practice law.
     
  27. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Who ducking fares? Weddle was overrated and over paid, and played a position that is not that important to winning...IE: our lack of ******* winning the last few years!

    Time for the grown ups to move on.

    And if you could please rate this post "old", because I'm tired of ******* repeating it.
     
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  28. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    This tread is supposed to be about Allen .. Not Weddle. Not surprised someone dragged old news into this.
     
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  29. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Your posts are so far off base that they are laughable.

    First, you are the one that brought up my going through law school (post #24), not me. Your view that that amounts to me raising the subject of my background is about as sound as many of your other takes. That is, it is not very sound at all.

    Second, I passed the California Bar Exam (long ago) and am admitted to practice law in California (where I lived for many years before moving to Texas), so your parenthetical comment about it being only Texas (as if Texas law somehow didn't count) is yet another swing and miss, but par for the course for you.

    You are the one that has repeatedly failed to understand how legal proceedings operate, the strategies involved in those proceedings, or how evidence routinely gets used.

    And your posts make that obvious to an actual legal professional.

    But please keep telling me how I am not capable of grasping basic logic when I have been using it successfully in legal proceedings for over a quarter of a century. After all, I need a good laugh from time to time.

    But beyond that, please explain to me North Carolina's misdemeanor criminal procedure, how it differs from that of most other jurisdictions, how it reconciles itself to the Sixth Amendment, how such a system might produce different initial trial results than those that would be produced in a more conventional jurisdiction, what sorts of different strategies attorneys might adopt in North Carolina misdemeanor cases in light of the system used there and why they would adopt them.

    After that warm up exercise, please learn thousands of legal terms and procedural and substantive laws, take and pass a bar exam (any will do even though California's is supposed to be one of if not the most difficult in the nation) and practice what you have learned for a number of years.

    At that point, you might have just scratched the surface of having what it would take to discuss with me the finer points of what constitutes competent evidentiary presentation.

    Good luck.
     
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  30. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    As usual you try to make the "worse argument appear the better" :p (Protagoras-style, circa 2,500 years ago)
    by attempting to bury an obvious reality
    (none here knows what transpired between TT & Cantor, and anyone who proclaims otherwise is simply full of crap...repeatedly)
    in an avalanche of tedious words. It's a transparent technique that is not working for you, CC.
    My mistake was in thinking that by the 6th or 7th time that was pointed out, you might evolve past it. Nope!
    "Remember the Filibusto" ? Anyway, I'm with SuperCharger: It is supposed to be about Allen,
    so I won't reply to any more of your nonsense about double super-secret knowledge about the Weddle situation.

    John Adams Crushes ChairCrusher.png
     
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