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Chargers Post-Cut Moves Thread

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by AnteaterCharger, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Geez, that little schizophrenic diatribe turned out to be a complete waste of my time to dissect. More font and color alterations than a color blind preschooler's art project.:confused:

    Try to put your head back on long enough to understand something simple, I did not lump you in with the others because of something you said in this thread, or based on any other player in particular. I lumped you in only because I've seen you defend Norv with the "things could be worse like they were back when" argument before.....simple as that. It's a point of view that I understand, but do not value, for obvious reasons.

    And by the way ya nutty ol codger I am hardly the lone hater of Norv Turner, or Richard Goodman, or Clary or any other player/coach I've railed against on this board. Just something for you to think about before accusing me of 'passing down edicts' on certain players, or being a know it all. I have almost always been among the majority in my harder opinions, especially this time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
  2. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I can't lie, my right arm is absolutely exhausted from responding to last weekend's signings...
    I think less of this roster than any in a decade.
    Will I still hope? Sure?
    Pray? I'm not too proud to try!!

    Fortunately, the ball is shaped funny, and it does take weird & lucky bounces.
    The Ravens weren't a great team (and both of the Giants' recent Lombardi Trophies were principally the Universe showing off its sense of humor). The 2013 Charger roster shouldn't even be mentioned in the same post as the quality 2009 club,
    but, with a helluva a lot of luck...well...let's just bite the bullet and hope for the best...:whistling:
     
  3. Riff Raff

    Riff Raff BoltTalker

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    I think we're roughly the same with a number of unprovens - the new coaching staff as one.

    Who do we have next to/behind Butler? Te'o unproven & injured. New pickup Manning unproven. Bird & Gachkar?
    DL is thin - Thomas may step up, but who's behind him? Geathers - unproven rookie. Maybe Nevis or Lissemore can move over in a pinch, but I see Lissemore more as a 5-tech & Nevis as a question mark.

    Running back is a little deeper, but if Mathews gets injured can Fozzy/Whitehead/Brown fill the bill?

    Who are the backup corners & safeties? No one any better than last year's unit, or at the very least unproven again (Taylor hurt last year, Addae a rook, Patrick hurt, Gilchrist - a corner or a safety, Stuckey?).

    OL starters may be moderately better but as bad or worse behind them.

    We're thin behind the starters & have a new playbook. There are going to be plenty of struggles & another mediocre season, IMO. The FO can say this isn't a rebuilding year, but I disagree. Line 'em up 3 deep & let 'em compete? OK - compete for what? Bench time? There's a lot of dirt still needed to fill that hole.
     
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  4. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Sorry, re. the use of color...I forgot about your delicate constitution, Matty.

    I'm not sure why you brought up Norv...I didn't, as you seemed determined to prove that every time
    I said "I'm AgNorvstic...I see the bad AND the good = I think he's probably a pretty average coach"
    (a position that challenges the low-info PFT reguritation crowd, but is supported by virtually any sober examination of his record)
    you would repeatedly mis-represent as "Pro Norv." I don't know you, so I could never tell if you were doing the
    straw man thing intentionally, or simply could not grasp that honestly grading Norv wasn't as simple as
    the mouth-breather chants. I gave up hoping you'd take what I kept saying for what I was actually saying.

    I guess where my longer years of following this team gives us different perspectives, is that I have
    no illusion that somehow being a Charger fan entitles one to a better than average team.
    It's an adorable, sweet notion.
    But it absolutely contradicts franchise history.
    I'm fine with jettisoning ANYONE: Norv, Nate, Drew, AJ...ANYONE, to improve the team.
    (as opposed to just to shut up those who repeat whatever they hear on SportsCenter)
    Haven't seen a lot of convincing roster improvement lately. Surely you wouldn't argue that.
    I mock those who run around hysterical at 9-7 saying things like "Well, we sure can't get much worse!" and I just think
    "How the Hell long have you been a Charger fan!!?! You must not have suffered many 4-12 seasons
    (I think I remember 4 of 'em...and that's not the worst of it!) if you really don't realize it gets much, much worse than this!"

    I can think wishfully as well as anyone in here (hell, I think ability to delude ourselves is the only thing that kept
    some of us long-time fans hanging in there through 2-12 & 1-15)
    but I'm not celebrating anything
    until we see that there was actual improvement after certain people were sent packing.
    If you own a restaurant, and you're frustrated by your chef, fine, toss him, but make sure you
    have a better situation lined up. Firing him might make you feel better in the moment,
    but it takes you backwards if you don't hire someone better. Whether it was or wasn't smart to
    get rid of him is not usually immediately clear...I tend not to celebrate until I see genuine improvement.
     
  5. CoronaDoug

    CoronaDoug Well-Known Member

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    Hey I could be wrong. Won't be the first time, and won't be the last. What the hell do I know? :laugh:

    Even if it is 5, 6, or 7 games it will make no difference.
     
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  6. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    Being a life long Bolt fan I have survived through the broken hearts and shattered dreams of many season gone by. Will this years edition go 5-11 or 11-5, beats the hell out of me. I do know from years gone by that anything can happen and usually does, if you stick around long enough.

    TT & MM both believe they have improved the team talent wise and with what they started with that job wasn't to difficult to complete. They're still more than one or two players away from even being considered contenders with many unknowns filling roster spots from last year. Funny thing is, no one knows just what is going to unfold in this up coming season. What I do know is that all teams are 0-0 right now, injuries will happen, bad calls will happen and many mistakes will be played out through the course of the season on and off the field.

    If providence allows even just a glimmer of her light to shine on the Bolts this year good things may be in store. This team has many new faces and youth to boot on it and when it's all combined expectation can register zero or peg the needle. Going into this season under this new regime is a breath of fresh air compared to last year. If this team comes out with purpose, pride and plays fundamentally sound with a dose of attention to detail they should win more than they lose. So I think I'll just sit back and enjoy watching this season unfold, I'm hopping for a fun time to be had by all.
     
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  7. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    The endgame, the long term GOAL, is to win the Super Bowl....end of story. I'm not sure when that goal became the same as feeling "entitled" to you.

    It's easy to see a 4-12 team and say we should move on, but sometimes it takes balls to look at an 8-8 team and realize major changes have to be made in order for the franchise to move forward. I like most, believed we never stood a chance at taking that next step with Norv Turner, who has always been regarded as one of the poorer head coaches in the league....our long underwhelming history has nothing to do with any of this.

    In the end, I'd rather be 4-12 with Telesco/McCoy this year than 8-8 with AJ/Norv again. It's something I can accept as a possible short term ramification of overhauling the front office.

    Nothing inflammatory in this post, you need to calm down now before you get us in trouble with Syd.
     
  8. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I agree...this time you aren't being obnoxiously offensive...just wrong. :)
    I'm a bit surprised that you totally agree with AJ
    (who looked at a 14-2 team and had the "balls" [in matilack-speak] to
    "realize major changes had to be made in order for the franchise to move forward.")


    Again, I'll be glad to discuss Norv's HC record...it supports what I have said (remember that Norv was slightly more successful,
    on average, with the Redskins & Raiders than the other coaches that bookended him...not super impressive, but--like his .583
    winning % here--argues against the notion that he was among the worst HCs)
    but it's kind of hard to argue when one of us (me!) uses
    facts and the other (Matty!) just regurgitates the old anecdotal talking points
    (like "...always been regarded as one of the poorer head coaches in the league..." :rolleyes:)

    Lastly, do you remember the 2009 season? The Chargers rode an 11 game winning streak into the playoffs,
    were a loaded team, peaking at the ideal time--the hottest team in the league.
    They outplayed the Jets in the first playoff game and probably had a better chance to win the Super Bowl
    than any other team at that point...until the most accurate kicker in NFL history had the worst day of his life, by far.
    In other words, your assertion that "we never stood a chance at taking that next step with Norv Turner"
    is beyond ridiculous. Even though the '94 team actually got to the Super Bowl, I still think of 2009 as the year that
    I had the best chance to finally see a Lombardi come to San Diego. Because the '94 team was grossly outmatched
    by the mighty '94 49ers...no real chance to win. Not even a puncher's chance. Young & Rice in their prime.
    But if Nate had merely gone 2-3 (or maybe even 1-3) the 2009 team had an excellent chance to win it all.
    That you could've followed the Chargers in 2009, and still type something as absurd as "we never stood a chance"
    suggests that you might wanna dial down your self-proclaimed YouTube draft "research" :rolleyes: a bit...
    and actually watch and learn about the pro team of which you say you're a fan. Just sayin'.
     
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  9. Joy Division

    Joy Division Slightly-known Member

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  10. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Sorry I'm not having this worn out conversation again. You need to get over yourself old timer, your boy got fired, he can be the HC of your All "Misunderstood" team.
     
  11. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    I'm sorry Lance but looking at this team compared to the 2009 squad, This 2013 although very young, is leaps and bounds a lot more talented than the 2009 (who going along with my point, just happened to get hot when it mattered the most).

    I would take any defensive player we have on our squad now, to match up with any player on the 2009 squad (you may disagree, but that's how I feel).
    I would take any WR we have and go up with the 2009 squad (VJ included)
    TE's, O line, and possibly RB's
    To go along with my point, I wouldn't be surprised if this team bought in, got hot and went on an 11 game winning streak just as much as I would where they had a learning curve, struggled coming out of the gate and had a rough season. As long a Rivers (who isn't struggling) is at the helm, he will put them in position to win games, but it is a team sport, and takes 44 other guys to do their jobs as well.
     
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  12. Sydalish

    Sydalish Addicted to Sports

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    I'm going to say this one last time - personal insults are not acceptable - disagree with an idea but leave the name calling and fan shaming at the door.

    Some good advice to post by: If you can't make your point without insulting another user, don't. hit. send.

    Moving forward it would be a big help, if and when the mud slinging starts, that the post be reported vs. engaging in kind. I'm not saying don't respond at all but don't sling the mud right back yeah? It might take one of us a little bit to see it (we're all logging on and off as life gives us the time to check BT) but it will be handled and reporting gives us something to work with and measure.
     
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  13. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    If you'd stop calling people old, simply because you refuse to involve facts and/or logic to your
    prejudices, maybe your views could grow/evolve.

    "Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps
    learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young." Henry Ford



    (just kiddin' Steven/Matty, without your unsubstantiated takes, we'd have to work harder to mock!)
     
  14. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Our difference in age is I believe the root of our problem. To ignore it would only make you the naive one of the two of us.
     
  15. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    It's easy to forget with the 13-3 record that we had absolutely no running game, and one of the worst run defenses in the league. I would be surprised if either were the case again this year.

    I can see a scenario where we blow up and have a great season, but it will require Rivers playing like his old self and our O-line allowing it.
     
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  16. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    I'm just curious why you see this team as being worse than last year's. Our O-line was awful last year. This year's line seems to be improved, especially in run blocking. The defense was good last year and should only be better this season with the continued maturation of our D-line and our improvement at CB.
     
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  17. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    The 0-line is the key. They have to hold up in pass protection. I'm still confident that Rivers can deliver if given the chance. The run blocking looks solid, and the defense has a chance to be very good. We will, also, have to get a break or two on the injury front, because our depth is not very good at several key positions.
     
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  18. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Wow! I usually find a lot of common ground with your posts, but this one is just far, far
    more hopeful than I can justify. I remember actually taking the Charger 2009 roster, and
    comparing it side-by-side, position by position, to the stellar 1963 team, and deciding that the '09 team
    was so solid that I should place a large wager on "Super Bowl Winner" in Vegas (I did, and during the 11 game
    win streak, my only regret was that I hadn't bet even more...it was looking like a genius move!).

    The 2103 roster, on the other hand, reminds me of a lot of the teams from 1970 to 1977:
    There's just enough there that, if unproven players deliver, marginal players over achieve,
    key injuries are luckily avoided and other teams stumble, there's an optimist's chance that the team could compete.
    (reminds me a little of what Padre fans face most seasons: hoping budget additions will over achieve).

    One silver lining: It's refreshing to not be the fan with the most rose-colored glasses for a change. :p
     
  19. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I doubt you're right. I studied--and taught--logic before I was the age you are now
    (I'm guessing...I don't know your precise age).
    We just process information very differently, but it's not a factor of age...I abhorred hasty conclusions,
    straw men & anecdotal 'evidence' when I was a teen...that I still do can't be blamed on age.
     
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  20. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    I agree, our secondary in all 3 phases is upgraded, our LB's are upgraded, our D line although the same can only get better IMO, along with the much needed depth which is also an upgrade from last year.

    Our recieving core is better from last year, WR's, TE's and RB's in this category.

    Our O line looks improved from last year.

    Telesco went out and released or let walk, all the negative rated players and replaced them with positive grades. Which is always a plus.

    Most importantly, I do believe if not all, many of the players were indeed complacent, the new regime has brought a new attitude and excitement back, and that can sometimes play greater in a teams success than any amount of talent (although it doesn't hurt to have that as well)

    Now having said that, I feel we're going to get crushed by Houston come Monday. And all the negative Nancy's, Boo Birds, Analysts along with Acee, Canepa and Hacksaw are going to come out and say "I told you so" But as the season roles along, I feel they will continue to grow and get better.

    I guess I'm going with the Ricky Henne approach

    [​IMG]
     
  21. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    I just have a hard time of looking at guys like Brandon Siler, Steve Gregory, Brandyn Dombrowski, Jyles Tucker, Alphonso Boone, Luis Castillo, Kevin Burnett, Shawn Merriman, Jaques Cesaire, Vaughn Martin, Stephen Cooper, Scott Mruczowski, Dennis Norman, OG nguwabo, Ian Scott, CJ Spillman, Kris Wilson, James Holt and calling the team "Loaded" (although I'm sure each one of those players were the best at their position coming out of high school :D)

    But saying
    Freeney, Luiget, Butler, Cox, Marshall, Rinehart, Fluker (still developing), Wright, Taylor, Gilchrist, Thomas, (that new guy we got from dallas who I don't know how to say his name), Dunlap, Johnson, Reyes, Nevis, Phillips, Woodhead, Gachkar, Bird, Geathers, Patrick, etc. etc.......................can't be greater or equal to any of the aforementioned players in the 2009 squad is too soon to judge.

    Time will tell my friend.
     
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  22. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    McCoy comes across to me as a guy that wont accept mediocre play nor guys taking plays off. If he delivers on what he preaches the Bolts should improve not only over last years team but with every game. Good solid ball without the confused look at the LOS on offense and a defense that kicks it up a notch and should in keeping the same system along with player growth from last year. If this team does worse than last year then something is very wrong in San Diego.
     
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  23. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Not talking about logic, I'm talking about psychology. I think we can agree that most people (not all for sure) become more conservative as they get older, more patient. Were as younger people are typically more liberal, and impatient.

    You're argument for Norv is based on his slightly above .500 record here after 6 years, which is fair if thatnumber had been heading in the right direction. But you also have to consider 3 consecutive years of decline, and more importantly the possibility that the players had just begun to tune him out...something we all suspected when watching Rivers body language on the sideline. Also reflective of that was our league worst 5 blown halftime leads last year and our abysmal 1-5 record in 1 score games. It felt like we were watching ourselves collapse on a weekly basis, and it probably did to the players as well.

    The point I'm trying to make is, if patience is a virtue, then knowing when to act should be as well.
     
  24. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I never said anything about "patience"...it's no factor in what I'm saying.

    And for the 100th time, it's not an "argument for Norv"...it's a collection of facts that refutes the echo
    chamber meme that Norv was "awful."
    Norv began with a bad rep, because dimmer fans judged
    him only by his W-L record with 2 lousy teams...ignoring the fact that he had a better W-L than the
    combo of coaches that preceded and followed him (the best apples to apples fact we can judge by).
    It doesn't say Norv was a great or even good coach, it just soundly refutes the idea that he was horrible.

    I've always said that--like 95% of coaches--Norv will win with good rosters and lose with bad ones.
    Which is EXACTLY what the facts prove out.
    His record here was good with a good roster, and declined along with the roster...exactly as any knowledgable
    long-term fan would predict.
    When you call a .583 winning percentage here "slightly above .500" I can't tell if you're deliberately bending
    the truth, or that you truly lack the perspective to comprehend how much better than average .583 is.
    It's a better winning % than Pete Carroll, Mike Shanahan or Tom Coughlin.
    Of the current NFL coaches (which is a success-skewed sample, since coaches with losing records tend to lose their jobs)
    precisely 9 of 24 (8 have no NFL record yet) have a higher winning % than .583, 15 are lower.
    Again, bear in mind that this sample is of the more successful coaches--the poorer records aren't factored in because those guys got fired.
    Perhaps a Norv fan would argue that this shows he was really good. I've never made that argument.
    It does, however, make a mockery of the assertion that he was horrible.

    That Norv overall is .483 with 2 bad teams (9 seasons) and one good one (6 seasons) is almost perfect evidence that he was an average coach. A statistician probably couldn't
    create a % that more perfectly defined "average" given those circumstances.

    Again, Matty, we don't see this differently because we were born at different times, we see it differently
    because we have different standards of evidence and methods of processing information.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
  25. Joy Division

    Joy Division Slightly-known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  26. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    My problem is you are cherry picking 6 years of Norv's career....and comparing his win % to the full 17 years of Tom Coughlin, and 23 years of Mike Shanahan. Do you honestly not see the problem with that?

    But fine Norv was not awful....he just wasn't good enough....I can live with that rationale. Are we done yet?
     
  27. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    And I thought we were interested in Norv as a CHARGER coach...

    (you know that I was simply calling out your clumsy attempt at claiming .583
    was essentially average...but good call changing the subject again...
    that way you might be able to hide the faulty reasoning...even from yourself. Yeah,
    if you stop with the "awful Norv" stuff because you realize it's illogical, I'm happy) ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
  28. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Well whatever Norv coaching era suits your argument best I suppose. Average, or slightly above, clearly it doesn't matter if you lose the locker room and/or miss the playoffs too often or he'd still be here.

    Bottom line is the guy is fired, time to move on Lance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  29. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Actually, the bottom line will come when we find out if we're better or worse off, having fired him. Time will tell.

    (which is not to say that those who 'think' with their emotions aren't already 'sure' they know) :p

    p.s. Of course, yes, I noticed that you added in more made-up stuff (see the pattern? I do!)...you may want to believe that
    Norv "lost the locker room" :rolleyes: but surely you realize your claim contradicts what we do know:
    for years the hysterical anti-Norv screamers were frustrated by Charger players who repeatedly praised Norv
    and talked about how hard they wanted to play for him...remember?
    The silly story then was "Oh, they can't tell the truth because he's still their coach...wait 'til Norv's gone,
    then Rivers etc. will unload! Say how they really feel"
    :roflmao: and, of course, even after Norv was fired, no such thing
    ever happened...but the wrong fans won't admit their error, now will they? It's sweet that you still cling to the fiction, though.

    p.p.s.: Is your plan to keep typing "Time to move on," followed by more typing about Norv? Indefinitely?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  30. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    I was only trying to find a common ground on this topic, you've made it perfectly clear that you're incapable of such a feet.
     

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