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Clinton Hart

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by sd-local, Jun 13, 2007.

  1. sd-local

    sd-local BoltTalker

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    I'm a little bored of the current jabbering thats going on in charger world right now so I wanted to talk about football. More specifically Clinton Hart and whether you are ok with him starting at either safety spot???

    I ask because I was just watching the nfl network replay of the bengals game last year and Hart drops an Int that is very literally in his hands with no recievers around, that got me to thinking about his ridiculous INT drop in the playoffs agains that pats and I seem to remember a few more stone hands moments out of him.

    I'm not saying that hands are the most important aspect of a safety, field awareness is, but when the opportunity for a huge change of momentum comes at you you need to be able to make that play, and right now I am not comfortable with Hart making that play.

    Any opinions?
     
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  2. Shamrock

    Shamrock Well-Known Member

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    Hart sucks.
     
  3. Trumpet_Man

    Trumpet_Man Well-Known Member

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    Yeah...lots.

    Clinton Hart is a stud.

    A natural and rangy Free Safety.

    A free safety who added another 10 pounds to his ***.

    A free safety who will make believers out of fans such as Shamrock.

    Clinton Hart and McCree need to swap positions or we play a Tampa Two style defense which means the WILB is a cover stud....uhhhh not on our team - yet.

    Trust me.

    Clinton Hart will make believers out of you heathens.

    Mark my words.
     
  4. Shamrock

    Shamrock Well-Known Member

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    You want us to switch to a Tampa-2 because of your man-wood for Hart?

    Dude, get control over yourself. You're rooting for a scrub to succeed. If he does, great ... but the odds of that are minimal. He has slow reactions, and slow to read the play. He's a DISASTER in cover-2 and as a centerfielder in cover-3 - yet you keep propping him up. You and Acee.

    If Hart starts, our secordary is WORSE than last year's group in depth, in the middle.

    Rooting for a favorite, like many locals do for Osgood, is fine. Promoting them above their talent is disengenous to your own football acumen - and I know you're not a ball watcher. Get the hottie Hart wife image out of your mind, and watch without the tailgate fanfare. Hart is a scrub, and deep down, you know it.
     
  5. Trumpet_Man

    Trumpet_Man Well-Known Member

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    I highlighted SLOW.

    Make sure you note he is SLOW to read, react and even recover which I will infer and remember these threads.

    Like I have said, their attendance means dick all at the tailgaters. If they suck, they suck. Deep down you know you have not given him a chance. He has returned INT's for TD's (then so has Jerry Wilson) but the dude has mother fugggin skills. He is not a scrub. That is way off base.

    He clanked a couple of INT's but the dude was in position to DEFEND.

    We have not have that in a millenia since Bill Arnsparger was here running the defense.

    Mark my words as I have said.

    Clinton Hart will show you why our secondary coaching sucks asss and has sucked *** because of politics and how does this happen?

    When Hart gets more playing time and fans say "holy ****", you will see.
     
  6. Boltjolt

    Boltjolt Well-Known Member

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    At least he got his hands on the ball....Kiel never did. Worst hands in the secondary belong to Florence tho.

    I also dont think Hart is near as bad as Shamrock says he is.
     
  7. Trumpet_Man

    Trumpet_Man Well-Known Member

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    I respect Shammy for some of his takes but not this one.

    Hart has skills and the slow reacting and slow moniker just does not hold water. :no:

    The Chargers like to run interchangable safeties. This means there really is no guy who is the FS in any given coverage except where he is playing solo center field which is rare in a complex defense. Covers 2,3,and 4 blah blah blah are defensive coverages which explain what I mean (no center fielder).
     
  8. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    What the hell is all this INT BS, sure forcing a turnover is nice every now and then but that isn't all there is to it. If our defensive backfield can pound the living **** out of the receivers they wont want to catch the ball. If the front 7 beats the hell out of the QB he will make the mistakes that lead to forced TO's. All I hear is interception, well, where the hell do they come from? from forcing mistakes. How is that done? by beating the hell out of the other team and putting the fear of god in them and by being in position. I'd rather see a damn good hit on the WR and the ball on the carpet than a lucky circus catch for the INT. Pound them till they just want the damn clock to expire, thats how you win. Of course thats old school football, I don't care much for all this finesse BS but what the hell. Phuc all this cover 2, Tampa 2, the hybrid cover 2, line up and beat the phuc out of them. Damn I miss the 70's football.:bolt2:
     
  9. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Don't think he's a starter but he's an outstanding backup and third safety
     
  10. Trumpet_Man

    Trumpet_Man Well-Known Member

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    A Cover Three essentially splits the secondary into three distinct quadrants.

    Left - Middle - Right.

    This uses 3 safeties.

    Cover 0 and 1 are man up defenses which leaves at least one ******** as the center fielder or your FS (dude has no help other than CB's).

    Cover 3 has a FS as well but he covers less ground because of the assignment (1/3 the field - middle).

    In a Cover 0 or 1 (man up) , the FS is truely your last line of defense.

    The question that needs to be asked is if the FS (Hart) has the "range and ball awareness" to compete.
     
  11. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    It would appear that by September crow may be on the endangered species list after all is said and done at training camp. Hart, Flo', Cro', "Erica", Sproles, Olivea, Oben, Goff and Norval. This is going to be one thoroughly entertaining summer.
     
  12. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    I really hope he does, and have seen flashes from him, but just wondering, if he does win that spot and holds it down (im with you that he and McCree need to switch), where does that leave weddle?

    We gave up 3 extra draft picks to get him for a reason, and apparently he has looked good so far. He cant sit on the bench for ever.

    Either way, I just love finally having a deep secondary with very good back ups at both spots (Jue/Weddle)
     
  13. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I believe you will be surprised by Hart's play, dude is always in position. That's something we haven't had in a while. :bolt2:
     
  14. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I'd rather play straight up man in that case, Cro and Jam can cover some ground before having to check off. the QB still has to play the safety, That is if he has the time.:bolt2:
     
  15. Trumpet_Man

    Trumpet_Man Well-Known Member

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    Weddle battles it out for the SS spot against McCree and is nickle and dimed to push Cro for starting time. I dig the **** out of the fact our SS can play CB (Weddle).

    Hart (my boy) is not a CB or SS so leave his *** at FS.

    This leaves Jammer/D-Flo/Cro/Weddle at the corners.

    Bow-wow Jue sucks ***. Cut him for better talent which gets cut surprisingly from another team.
     
  16. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    Maybe if Cro was ready for the spot, but he didnt do nearly enough last year to win that spot.

    Florence was lights out last year and if he has a similar season, he will be one of the top defensive FAs on the market next offseason


    The only way Cro should start this year is if we trade Flo for a draft pick to use on Paul Oliver in the supplemental draft!
     
  17. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    I dont know, Jue was good (nothing special) his first year here. It was his first year in this defense, and his first year as a S, so im willing to cut him some slack and give him another shot.

    Would you really rather go back to the days of Jerry Wilson???
     
  18. Trumpet_Man

    Trumpet_Man Well-Known Member

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    Ok since we have covered defenses like a Borg invasion from Covers 0,1,2,3, ..... damn dude we forgot Cover 4 defenses.

    A Cover 4 defense splits the **** into 4 zones. This is sometimes called a hybrid defense. It is also called "half man and half zone" defenses because of the way the assignments are handed off in the defense.

    That is ALL
     
  19. Shamrock

    Shamrock Well-Known Member

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    You're sort of on the right track, but a little off on a spur.

    It's not "3 safeties" ...... it's 3 DB's (typically 2 CB's and the free safety in cover-3).

    ~~~~~

    Basic zone coverages

    Cover-0 - True man. No safety help.

    Cover-1 - Man coverage by all with one DB (typically the FS) in deep zone "centerfielder" coverage.

    Cover-2 - CB's roll up into the flats, and safeties split the field in half for deep zone coverage.

    Cover -3 - Three deep zone coverage, typically two CB's and FS. Strong safety has strong side (TE side) flat responsibility, while WOLB has weak side flat zone coverage.

    Cover-4 - Four deep zone coverage. Both CB's and both safeties.
     
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  20. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    At this point, I lean toward Cro'. Florence might beat him out in training camp but the guy is smart and awesomely talented and will start before the seanson is over, I think. The center and left of the O Line is All Pro calibre. Nobody can afford the price for five guys like that. Goff is competent, steady but not spectacular. He plays hard and doesn't screw up very often. Olivea has improved gradually his whole career and he's working out with a program like Merriman's. Would I like both sides of the line to be just as good? Sure, but if my grandmother had wheels she'd have been a wagon, and there ain't enough gold in the wagon. Goff does his job competently and a lot of other teams are doing a lot worse at rt. guard. I think Weddle has more than a decent shot at replacing Hart at some point in the season. Weddle seems to be one of those guys who just gets it. I think he's more instinctive than Hart. The light doesn't seem to have gone up all the way for Hart yet, but if it does this year, we not only have talent, but more depth in our DB's than any other team in the league. Personally, I find a guy with instincts preferable, even over a better athlete, but Weddle is not an inferior athlete.
     
  21. Trumpet_Man

    Trumpet_Man Well-Known Member

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    Cover 3 & especially Cover 4 are not purely "zone coverages".

    They are zone and "man" coverages. They are hybrid defenses.

    Man up is Zone 0 & 1.

    Cover 2 is man up plus coverage over the top split between 2 deep defenders but it is a man and zone coverage.

    Cover 0 can have safety help. It is nothing but a disguised blitz (edit: then it is a Cover 1).
     
  22. P88F

    P88F BoltTalker

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    Dude your boy sucks get off his nuts already! start Weddle!
     
  23. Shamrock

    Shamrock Well-Known Member

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    Cover-0 is a PURE man coverage with ZERO help available.

    The cover # indicates the number of players available for deep ZONE support in the called defense.

    Cover 3 is a zone defense. If a WR ran a 9 route, then sure, a DB would resort to man coverage at the depths of his ZONE.

    There is nothing "hybrid" about the basic coverages. Hybrid would be the "Tampa-2" version of the cover-2. A normal 4-3 cover-2 splits the field in fifths in the mid-range routes. A Tampa-2 is a hybrid that usually sends the MLB deeper than the other LB's (and CB's in the flats) to try and defend in depth in the center of the field, while the safeties have the deep "halves" responsibility. A very fast MLB can take away the TE medium depth routes in the center of the field, which typically is a big weakness of the Tampa-2 (and cover-2 in general).


    There are plenty of discussions on the net regarding the basic coverages. Here's one that includes the passing tree and how to attack the basic ZONES of cover-2, 3, and 4. It's actually a decent discussion, too bad it's from USC pukes.
     
  24. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    Clinton will make you all forget keil real quick. Bank it.:bolt2:
     
  25. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    Says the guy who named himself after the worst starter on last years team
     
  26. Trumpet_Man

    Trumpet_Man Well-Known Member

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    A hybrid defensive coverage is simply handing off responsibilities in a Cover 3 or 4 defense - especially Cover 4. That is where "hybrid" comes from because it means you employ 1/2 man and 1/2 zone coverages.

    The difference between "Man up" and man up and handing off to zone coverages is all "hybrid". To say defenses which are not man up and which employ hybrid schemes is basically football ignorant.
     

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