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Devils advocate and confirmation bias

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by mettadown, Oct 13, 2016.

  1. mettadown

    mettadown BoltTalker

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    I'm going to assume you want McCoy fired but read this knowing that I understand why you think that.

    Let's get the obvious out of the way, Mike McCoy needs to grow a pair in the fourth quarter. You know this, I know this, I certainly hope he knows this.

    But aside from that is there actually anything that wrong with him as a young, first time head coach? I saw a team lose the game because they gave up a whole bunch of penalties and it wasn't our dbs on demarius Thomas like previous years. I've seen rookies and young players in multiple positions come in, ready to play and make plays all across the field. I've seen a team lose a bunch of their best players and still play like one of the best teams in the league (for most of the game). I saw a team play like a 4-1 team.

    He has one massive glaring weakness, but if it was possible for him to change his 4th quarter cowardice, would you want him to still coach? Or is there other reasons he deserves to be fired?
     
  2. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Devil's Advocate & Confirmation Bias were great bands
    in the '80s, man, but it's time to move on!


    As to McCoy, yeah, the overwhelming majority of my frustration with him has been
    cowardly pissing away games at the end, that the players had rightfully won.

    I have never been one of the guys making up things to blame on him,
    like obvious player errors that no coach has control over.
    And he's had a 'meh' group of guys come out more fired-up than the other team 5 weeks out of 6!!

    Unfortunately, the Chiefs debacle, Week 1, convinced me that the turtling is in McCoy's deepest DNA...
    no Charger lead is ever safe with his scaredy-cat philosophy...and that's a fatal flaw...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. mettadown

    mettadown BoltTalker

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    Even knowing that he's a pretty good coach the rest of the time? That he's young and there is an above 0 percent chance he identifies the problem that everybody is yelling at him then decides to do something about it? What if Tom Telesco say "Mike your coaching for the first three quarters then Phillips Rivers and Melvin Ingram or Manti Teo calls the plays in the 4th?"

    It feels a lot like the gms who passed over Jason Verrett cause he was too short.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  4. Slam

    Slam BoltTalker

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    I think you're making excuses, do you really think a man who sinks his head in the 4th quarter thinking "WHAT HAVE I DONE" here comes #5.


    No, I would want someone competent that learns from his mistakes. McCoy has not, he got lucky tonight.

    Had the chargers gone for one pass when there was 5 minutes. This game wouldn't of been close even. Instead, it's weak play calling and then dropping your head and praying.
     
  5. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I don't think I could quite go "...pretty good coach the rest of the time."

    But he's not nearly as bad as a lot of hysterical ninnies say he is.

    But he steadfastly refuses to learn the 4th quarter lesson...I think he's been
    so consistently chicken in the 4th quarter that he's proven he won't change
    (and I say this as a guy who argues that most fans grossly exaggerate the number of games HCs
    actually win or lose...but McCoy's late game panics lose games in ways 98% of HC decisions don't)
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  6. mettadown

    mettadown BoltTalker

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    I agree 100% with you. He's crap in the 4th quarter.

    I'm not making excuses, I'm trying to discuss if there are benefits to keeping McCoy on. You have to admit objectively that he's done some good stuff and some bad stuff. Is starting again ultimately going to be beneficial in 5 years or are we going to complain that the next coach is too liberal?

    I saw a couple of draws rather than every single first and 10 draw up the middle. Does that mean he does learn?

    It is possible that as a young coach with virtually all of San Diego telling him that he needs to grow a pair in the fourth quarter that he might actually learn and do it.

    I think the chances of him learning this is greater than getting a new coach in who will be better than he is overall.
     
  7. Boltz_from_Oz

    Boltz_from_Oz BoltTalker

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    It's more than just turtling. He makes some boneheaded decisions under pressure.

    Please explain the time out for the onside kick. Please explain the timeout when the Raiders were 4th and 3, and our defense was set. He effectively gave the Raiders a free shot to scheme against our D. Result = TD Raiders. Please explain the pointless exercise of kicking a FG in the first place to tie a game...when you're going to give the ball back to the Raiders with 2 minutes to go, all their time outs, they've scored 6 out of their last 7 drives, and they have the greatest long distance FG kicker of all time....and think you're actually going to win the game. Turtling aside, that's strategically stupid.

    All this would be fine for a young coach to learn on the job if you had a young team with a newbie QB. However we have the last remaining years of an elite franchise QB being wasted here while McCoy is "learning".

    By now you'd think he would have had a Riverboat Ron epiphany and worked it out...but he hasn't...so it's unlikely he ever will. Lord knows fate has shown him time...and time...and time again. In just this season. Nope. The penny still hasn't dropped. He is what he is.

    As for Pagano...he's had plenty of time here to build a top 5 defense. He hasn't even gotten close. Ron Rivera had us as the number 1 defense in a much shorter time period as his first gig. Can't recall exactly where Wade Phillips had our D, but I'm sure it was pretty high up.

    McCoy and Pags might be nice likeable fellas, but they belong in another league unfortunately, patting players on the back and handing out participation awards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  8. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    It's hard to know how exactly much impact MM has on Wiz's offense.

    I said after the Chief game that MM had earned his firing.

    But I'm not constantly screaming for his head because he's not that bad, and I have little confidence
    that the Spanos klan will replace him with someone better.
    When fans were yelling for Norv's head, I took the same position.
    "But anyone will have to be better than Norv!!" they kept insisting...and I kept saying that
    --given this ownership--that was just naive, cranky wishful thinking. Which, of course, turned out to be true.

    So, who is available, clearly better than McCoy, and someone the Spanoses would actually sign?
    Probably not much agreement on an actual solution to the McCoy problem...

    And hey, I do think the guy has earned a couple days of non-abuse...so I'll try...
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. Boltz_from_Oz

    Boltz_from_Oz BoltTalker

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    Lance...at the end of the day...do you think we have any chance of winning the SB with McCoy?

    We won't have an elite franchise QB for much longer. The clocks ticking.
     
  10. mettadown

    mettadown BoltTalker

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    The timeout on the onside kick tonight wasn't good or bad. Because the broncos recovered it, it changes how we think about it (confirmation bias). If he does nothing and they recover it, is it still his fault?

    You raise some valid points about the raiders game but you have to assume that under normal circumstances they hit that field goal and tie it up. The Oakland coaches would've probably gone for a screen or a draw play on 1st and 10 and if it went well they would've kept going, if not they would've played for ot as well. But its moot anyway.

    Rivers age doesn't matter we are not winning a uper bowl with him or without him the way the roster is.

    I'm not gonna discuss pagano. He is so inconsistent, he's the best Def coach one week, the worst the next week. He deserves his own thread.

    Being likeable isn't important, but personality is. I've never had McCoy coach me so I can't give an opinion one way or the other as to whether I would actively play better or worse on purpose for him
     
  11. mettadown

    mettadown BoltTalker

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    We ain't winning a super bowl with or without rivers.

    I like how mccoy and Telesco have been able to bring in a bunch of young guys who are making plays. The last rookie before keenan Allen to do anything was Shawn Merriman. Now we've got 3 from this class and at least 1 from each of his drafts.

    If you can guarantee me a coach that can get rookies ready to make an impact I'll take it.

    Then in 3 years when we've got a solid core of talent and get a superbowl winning retread coach like Coughlin
     
  12. Boltz_from_Oz

    Boltz_from_Oz BoltTalker

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    Nothing to do with confirmation bias. I thought it was a boneheaded decision when he did it, regardless of the result. Half the time McCoy overthinks things and out coaches himself.

    You really think Jack Del Rio wouldn't go for the win?? Given he's shown his hand the last two weeks of being aggressive and going for it against us (4th and 3) and the Ravens the week before. JDR has had his Riverboat Ron epiphany and is now coaching for the win every time. With SeeBas he only needs to get to the 35-40 yard line on a 2 minute drill, with relatively no risk in going for it.

    So you're in the camp that its the roster, not the coaching. Fairy nuff. I'm on the other side where its inept coaching, and happen to think our roster isn't too bad. The only way we will know is if McCoy is fired and a coach steps in and has immediate results. Then we'll know for sure.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  13. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    No.

    But this roster isn't realistically going to win the SB with
    Belichick coaching it, with assistance from Lombardi, Coryell, Walsh & Buddy Ryan.
     
  14. Boltz_from_Oz

    Boltz_from_Oz BoltTalker

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    Fairy nuff. I beg to differ.

    They're the best in the business for a reason. Belichick in particular has kept his team challenging every year, in a league that champions parity through draft and salary caps. He's always picking at the bottom of the draft and yet the Pats are always in the top 4 of the AFC. Thats not because of some fluke.
     
  15. mettadown

    mettadown BoltTalker

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    Have to agree to disagree on the timeout.

    I think he would've gone with a high upside play to start the drive and if it worked he would've gone for it, if not probably not. He's not going to call a pass on 3rd and 10 from his own twenty in a tie game with 1.30 on the clock.

    To be honest I think with Allen and Verrett healthy we've got a solid 8 and 8 team but I don't know enough about the other 31 teams to rate our talent level accurately. I think Telesco is awesome and McCoy is good at getting rookies and young players ready to play, tourek Williams sack fumble on peyton manning last year?
     
  16. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I've argued this many times...won't re-hash all the details...
    but in a nutshell, no one seemed to realize Walsh or Belichick's "genius" until they had a Montana & Brady
    (and BB even put Brady on the bench)...
     
  17. Boltz_from_Oz

    Boltz_from_Oz BoltTalker

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    Did you not see Belichick win 3 out of 4 this year with his second string and third string QB, or go 11-5 with Matt Cassell??
     
  18. mettadown

    mettadown BoltTalker

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    Maybe not this season but you'd have to think next season theyd go 14 and 2. Am I pessimistic in already giving up on this year?
     
  19. scratchnz

    scratchnz BoltTalker

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    McCoy can't motivate this team to fight for the game when the momentum has shifted! A classic sign of a mediocre head coach.
     
  20. Jesse Kemp

    Jesse Kemp BoltTalker

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    Even if that's McCoy's only real flaw, it's been costing us games for four years and he's not growing out of it. It's more than serious enough to fire him over all on its own.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Whooki Mane

    Whooki Mane BoltTalker

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    I don't think coaching like a scared coward is something that changes. It is one thing if this was year 1 but by now that strategy has backfired time after time for this team and yet he still continues to coach scared in the 4th. It is one thing if he has learned from all of the comeback victories against us and altered his coaching philosophy in these situations but last night just proves he hasn't
     
  22. Whooki Mane

    Whooki Mane BoltTalker

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    Also, there is enough talent on this roster over the years to be better than we have been. I don't believe McCoy is capable of overachieving with a roster. Telesco does a solid job of bringing in talent
     
  23. OP Bolt

    OP Bolt BoltTalker

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    My problem w/ the front office and coaching is the long term record since TT and MM arrived. With Rivers, the Chargers are capable of randomly beating any team - but they have not shown the ability to beat most teams regularly. The three year record shows declining wins, win %, and seriously declining point differentials. This all seems to indicate a slightly better than mediocre team which has declining team talent/coaching/health/...

    So, great win last night. But let's not get too giddy. When it really mattered, the Broncos started moving through the Chargers like a hot knife through butter, they just ran out of clock- something we are familiar with. And our Not So Special Teams fired not one, but two loud brain farts last night.

    It also looks like the 2016 draft class might actually produce some star players. And we might scrape out a few more wins than last year - but we still can't score TDs consistently, still can't shut down another team defensively when we have to, and well, we still have our Not So Special Teams.

    So, can we find someone better than MM? The Spanos record doesn't provide much to lean on.
     
  24. pure-sol

    pure-sol Well-Known Member

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    That was the defense playing prevent to burn the clock. Give up short inside passes to protect against the outside passes that stop the clock. That is the time to actually use the prevent defense to burn the clock. So the Broncos weren't moving through us like a hot knife through butter, we were letting them get small chunks of yards while keeping the clock running.

    The only thing that concerned me was the run game actually gaining legs late in the game for the Broncos. They haven't been able to run all year so far, yet were able to get that going later in the game. I'm not surprised, taking last year into consideration, but it's still concerning.
     
  25. mettadown

    mettadown BoltTalker

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    He did go for it once on fourth down. If next week that turns into him turtling at 10 minutes to go in the 4th quarter then I'll call that progress. I might be clutching at straws but i am an optimist.

    Maybe it's an elaborate plan so come playoffs we've got a lead, the opponents are expecting us to turtle... Yeah... maybe...

    I don't want to see a combination of head coach and gm that gets new guys ready to play and make an impact slip away .

    I'm not ready to go full Cleveland and fire a coach (especially a young one) over one issue that CAN be fixed. Whether it will be fixed, I'm willing to be more patient to see but I have to believe that somebody somewhere has told him he needs to be more aggressive.

    If I'm Telesco or a spanos, I have to believe that teaching McCoy to grow a pair in the 4th quarter is easier than blowing the whole thing up and starting with a new coach who is going to have his own different problems that us fans will hate and demand him to be fired for in 3 years time because the offence isn't scoring any points in the first half or some other problem that we don't have now.

    The devil you know...
     

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