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Football Gameplan's 2015 NFL Draft Grades: Chargers

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by EmDiggy, May 31, 2015.

  1. EmDiggy

    EmDiggy BoltTalker

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  2. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Nice presentation again, but there is no way that the Chargers should get an A+ for their draft.

    A GM gets no credit for drafting to solve a problem that he created. A GM loses credit by trading up unnecessarily to get the player that solves the problem he created. A GM loses even more credit when he completely fails to comprehend the draft dynamics and panics in making a totally unnecessary trade up. While Gordon the player is first round quality and was the second highest rated player in my view at the time of the pick, the absolute butchering of the RB position (failure to re-sign Mathews, trade up to get Gordon) this offseason alone takes the draft out of the A+ or even A or A- range.

    Another grade is lost on the reach to take Mager in round 3--poor player value, poor positional need.

    And more grade value is lost on the pick of Philon. After seeing us get steamrolled on the ground for two seasons in a row, why Telesco wants us to become even softer on the DL by drafting more finesse players is mind boggling.

    What we could have done is to have re-signed Mathews, taken an edge rusher (Dupree) at #17, taken Perryman as we did, taken Carl Davis (you know, an actual man for the DL and not some finesse cutie), taken Karlos Williams (to spell Mathews at the #1 RB position if/when Mathews became injured), taken Emanuel as we did (Telesco's best pick for value) and taken a flier on Darren Waller, who has DGB type size and at least as favorable measurables. IMO, that would have been a better draft (provided Mathews had been properly re-signed for very little money as he ultimately was by PHI) and we would still have next year's 6th round pick.

    I think that it was no coincidence at all that the teams that took Dupree and Davis were the Steelers and Ravens, respectively, which are teams that actually know how to run a 3-4 defense.

    I think I gave the draft a C- in another thread. That may be somewhat harsh, but I have grown weary of some of what I perceive as Telesco's repeated offenses--the refusal to re-sign quality players, the apparent sheer ignorance of the concept of quality depth, the apparently deliberate softening of the defense and the repeated unnecessary trading away of draft picks because Telesco seems to have to do the "pee pee dance" during the middle of the draft when a player he covets gets anywhere near falling to him (resulting in draft picks lost for no reason).
     
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  3. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I agree with most of what you said. As much as I like Gordon trading up in the 1st for any RB is disregarding positional value, and should have knocked this grade down at least to A if not A-. Needless to say I agree with your point about Ryan Mathews, even if it meant still picking Gordon. Imagine pounding that rock with Gordon, Mathews, and Woody 30-40 times a game this year behind our behemoth O-line.

    I do think we needed a CB in this draft given the injury proneness of our top 3 guys, but a small school prospect who didn't have to cover a single NFL caliber talent in 2014 is not what you'd call an inspired selection. Mager is the definition of a long term project. Had we kept our 4th round pick I highly suspect we'd have traded it anyway in a move up for Eric Rowe in round 2.

    Perryman is a good instinctual football player, but any value he adds is contingent on Donald Butler not rebounding, or injuries. If Donald Butler doesn't rebound and Perryman starts in year 1, it still looks bad on Telesco for giving Butler so much money.

    Philon makes sense given how much 4-3 we actually run, he may be the 2nd best 3-tech prospect on this roster outside of only Corey Liuget. A project that was well worth a 6th round pick IMO. And Emanuel makes a lot of sense given our lack of depth at OLB.

    I'd give this draft (+ UDFA) no better than a B grade at face value. 3 years from now we'll see.
     
  4. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I agree that if you add UDFAs, then the grade that I assigned to the draft would be improved somewhat. I do like a few of our UDFA prospects although I can't believe the OP assigned a round 2 grade to Curtis Grant (who I like also) even if he was highly rated coming out of high school.

    I guess where we disagree is regarding Philon. I think there is a "chicken and egg" issue here that people are glossing over. To me, part of why we play less 3-4 is because we lack the people to play the defense effectively in certain situations. Some seem to think that our playing less 3-4 justifies our personnel choices.

    To me, it is the other way around. Since players like Reyes and probably Philon can't hold their own in a 3-4, we can't use a 3-4 defense with them on the field. Carrethers has not emerged yet, so there is no evidence that we have an effective true NT on the roster either. Obviously, we are not going to be a 3-4 team if we refuse to get 3-4 players. I wouldn't want to play much 3-4 defense with these players either if I were a DC.

    That's why I have made it a point to contrast what we are doing with what traditionally good 3-4 defensive teams are doing in the draft. Players like Dupree and Davis were there to be taken and they were taken by the teams that actually know what they are doing when it comes to the 3-4 defense (Steelers, Ravens).

    This is bad news further because we lack the LBs to play a 4-3 effectively. Our ILBs are not fast enough/good enough and we have no true Will. And who do think possesses pass coverage skills out of the Sam position? Te'o can't play the position because he is too weak (by a mile) versus the run and Attaochu lacks the pass coverage skills.

    Our CBs can cover, even without a pass rush, as evidenced by last year's performance. What we can't do is stop the run. What we failed to prioritize in the draft, for the third season in a row, are DL players that can stop the run. I know we drafted Carrethers, but I said "prioritize", meaning something of greater priority than one 5th round pick in 3 years.

    Anyway, we want to be a ball control team, but the problem is that our defense is structured such that other teams can play ball control against us, negating our ball control objective. And our present GM either can't see it or fails to recognize its importance as he demonstrates over and over again with his personnel choices.

    And everyone but Telesco knew that we gave Butler too much money the second that deal was signed. And that was assuming Butler would play to his former form, not the crap we got out of him last year. Butler's current form only makes the deal look that much worse for Telesco, but it was bad from the outset.
     
  5. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    I was admittedly incredibly surprised by Emory's take on the Chargers draft - the best one in 2015? I admit I think this is very optimistic to say the least. Even though the Chargers did bring in some players everyone said had a ton of talent, the lack of picks is very problematic. Now of course knowing the team got Barksdale makes passing on OL a lot easier.

    I do still wish we had targeted DL as everyone noted, I guess we will find out soon enough how far along everyone in this group is. Admittedly I'm very very intrigued by the ILB corps this year, surprised that Grant was rated so high compared with everyone else and mixed with Perryman and Teo, you might have the makings of a very good ILB corps.

    I don't give TT anywhere near the crap that Chain gives him for Butler - you are talking about a guy who played very well when healthy for his entire rookie contract, no one could've predicted that he'd fall that hard that fast. He definitely didn't have anything in his background that gaither did. If anything I love that TT unlike other GMs (cough AJ cough) admits his mistakes and gets rid of them ASAP if it isn't working. How many teams would be willing to jettison players they signed earlier to big contracts because of a lack of performance? A handful at most.

    I still think this is a C graded draft but it is nice to see more and more draftnicks giving the Bolts draft some love.
     
  6. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Please allow me to clarify my thoughts regarding Butler. If Butler had played like the pre-big contract Butler, I still would have concluded that we overpaid for him (in case that was not clear from my earlier post). I agree that he did not show any signs of "Gaitherism" before he was re-signed.

    Regarding admitting mistakes, I understand that Butler kind of has to be on the roster this year due to salary cap issues, but it is June 1st and D. Brown is still on the roster for more $$$ than the Eagles will be paying Mathews this year. There is a mistake that is ready to be admitted now that June 1st has officially arrived.

    I agree with your thoughts regarding Barksdale. That was a good signing. I like Grant as an UDFA for us as well as Ty. Williams. And in the all time best names category, how can you not like that we signed Dreamius Smith? :)
     
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  7. powayslugger

    powayslugger Feckless Slappy

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    Maybe I am in the minority, but I am frigging glad as heck we didn't re-sign Matthews. A talented back- who was usually injured. He finally got over his early fumblitis- but only once did he play all 16 games. Not worth the raise he was bound to be asking for... he was a 50% back- he played about 50% of the time. The dude was hardly ever healthy, and so glad he took his "one-minute-clinic" body off to Philly.
     
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  8. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I am sorry, but you are just wrong about Mathews. Mathews was not "usually injured". He played fewer than 12 games only once in 5 years for us. He never lost more than two fumbles in an entire season and never fumbled the ball more than twice in any of his final three seasons with us. By contrast, Keenan Allen lost two fumbles in one game last year. Mathews was twice a 1,000 yard RB for us and was a Pro Bowl RB for us.

    Obviously, you have not seen what Mathews actually signed for with PHI. This year and next year he will make less than D. Brown despite being ten times as good.

    For any Gordon lover, it seems beyond dispute that Mathews, Gordon and any other RB we might have would have been better than just Gordon plus any other RB we might have.

    When Mathews' price is considered, of all of Telesco's stupid personnel decisions and draft day blunders, and there has been no shortage, letting Mathews walk just might be the worst decision of them all, which is really saying something with D. Brown still on the roster and the millions that went to Cox and Butler.

    Only Tom Freakin' Telesco and D. Brown's mother would take D. Brown over Mathews for similar money. I know Telesco is only in his third year, but shouldn't he know by now that the goal is keep the good players and let the bad ones go?
     
  9. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    The fans, spoiled ******* rotten by Tomlinson, never gave Mathews a fair shot. Always eager to jump his *** for a pre-season fumble, getting nicked, or skipping one day of OTAs for family reasons. Never mind that when he came to work he lowered his shoulder into every tackler, never went down easy, and scrounged 4.4-5.0 ypc behind an O-line boasting guys like Johnnie Troutman, Rich Ohrnberger, and Chad Rinehart up the middle.

    I really wonder if some of the issue with re-signing him was that he just needed a change of scenery. I probably would have preferred to leave if I were in his shoes, and there was rumor that Telesco did offer him a contract.
     
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  10. Brundlefly

    Brundlefly Well-Known Member

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    I've said it before, with no basis other than my own feelings on it, but I think he did just want a change of scenery and wanted to go somewhere else. Re-signing a player still requires that player to sign.
     
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  11. OP Bolt

    OP Bolt BoltTalker

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    There appears to be some irony in creating an OL composed of 4 OTs and 1 OG playing OC, and being a 3-4 defense which has to play 4-3 60% of the time because you have too little smash and push. I was one of those who lusted after M. Brown. I'm willing to give TT a year or two to see if the Gordon selection is transformational for the offense - and whether ball control improves enough to protect the defense. But right now, it looks like we are, once again, depending on one side to prop up the other, which isn't a good recipe.
     
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  12. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I agree with much of what you have said here. When you have the #1 RB in the NFL and get used to that, then you do not appreciate a very good top 10 RB as much as you should.

    It will be interesting to see what happens in PHI with Mathews and Murray, but while both backs are good, it would not surprise me at all if the Eagles discovered that Mathews was the better of the two since Murray gained his stats behind the best run blocking OL and ours just might have been the worst.

    I can't give Telesco a pass for Mathews because he had a ton of room to increase the offer over what PHI offered. Seriously, $5-6M per year would not have been unreasonable at all for Mathews.

    Also, I do not buy the change of scenery argument. I think the exact opposite is true. If Telesco offered him a contract at all, I strongly suspect that he low balled him. The player may then say at that point that he wanted to leave and he may have, but I suspect that being underappreciated by the team will have that effect on a player.

    Emphatically, I do not see Mathews' situation as being similar to the contract situations with V. Jackson where we offered $9M per year only to be outbid by TB's $11M per year, or like Tolbert's situation in which he was from North Carolina and wanted to go home and did so for less money or like with Brees where we had a good reason (major injury plus young stud QB waiting in the wings) to make a low ball offer and another team outbid every other team by a mile.

    Mathews is from California and went to a California college and was playing for the nearest team to where his roots were. This tends to indicate to me a situation in which the player wants to stay.
     
  13. powayslugger

    powayslugger Feckless Slappy

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    That's your opinion and I respect that. But consider the number of games in the second half when Mathews sat on the bench was unable to play- because he was hurt. That stioll showed up in the stats as a "game played". His backups sucked and I remember all those "three and outs" because we had no run game.

    What I'm saying is that for all the money we were paying Mathews, I was expecting more than a part-timer. I was expecting a reliable, durable running back in a #1 pick. Not a china doll. Maybe as THE BACKUP RUNNING BACK to Demarco Murray, Ryan can stay a little healthier. Yeah- he signed with Philly and is Demarco's beetch. Says a little about how the rest of the NFL sees him as a RB- not just me.

    Let's just see how he does in 2015.
     
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  14. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    Regardless of what you consider Ryan Mathews to be, I would much rather prefer to have that talent on the roster for that price tag over Donald Brown. As a few has said, both sides have to agree to terms, so I hope is that Ryan preferred a change in scenery with all the BS he got from the "fans" and not that TT didnt want to offer him something. Right now other than MG3, who I believe in but still has yet to do it in the league, we dont have a reliable backup the quality of what Mathews could have provided in a reduced role. I like Oliver and his fight, but he still lacks break away speed and power. I do like his forseen reduced role this season since he has alot of fight and crazy balance and knows how to use leverage, so we can hope its a good combination. And no, I haven't forgotten Woodhead. I just dont view him as a RB.
     
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  15. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    And you should consider the games he did play, and how much better our offense was with him than when those backups came in the game.

    And don't pretend you care about the money we paid him, it wasn't an exorbitant amount for a guy who was arguably the most productive weapon on the team when he was healthy. On average he made about $4.5M a year on his rookie deal, the deal he just signed with Philly is worth even less at about $3.6M a year, which is essentially in the Sproles/Gerhart/D. Brown backup role range. And easily escapable.

    The only difference between Murray and Mathews is Murray had his one healthy year in 2015 behind the best O-line line the league.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
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  16. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Dead on.
     
  17. powayslugger

    powayslugger Feckless Slappy

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    And you should consider the games he did play, and how much better our offense was with him than when those backups came in the game.
    ========

    Yeah.... all six games... HE PLAYED ONLY SIX GAMES LAST YEAR... or are you forgetting that fact. He has missed games in 4 of the 5 seasons with us.... say what you want, but keeping him as your #1 back would have been dumb. I'll stop replying on this matter since we're obviously seeing the glass of Ryan Mathews from two different perspectives. You see it as half full and i see it as cracked and half empty. I'm done with this.
     
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  18. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    LOL... Its funny how you conveniently left out Mathews being slotted as a running mate of MG3 instead of as the Chargers sole #1 back. The discussion here is more of Mathews over Donald Brown who you seemed to have forgot missed all 16 games last season with his 2.6 yds/a.
     
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  19. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I never said anything about keeping him as our #1 back, which proves to me you've missed the point of this entire discussion.

    What was agreed upon by pretty much everyone who thinks we should have kept RM, is that we would still draft another RB, and go more by committee rather than pounding him again and again like we were doing (particularly in that no huddle scheme).

    So right now it would be Gordon/Mathews/Woodhead/Oliver sharing the load. Does that make more sense?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
  20. charger1993

    charger1993 bad motherfucker

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    We'll see which side is right about Mathews , I'm in the I never liked him side. But if Gordon comes in and rushes for more yards than Mathews did his rookie year it was an upgrade.
     
  21. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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  22. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    Some people are very naive if they don't realize that a very high percentage of NFL players (some positions more so than others, i.e, RBs and LBs) "juice" to gain certain size, speed, strength and power advantages. There are PEDs which are not easily detectable and some players overtly take chances too with the random testing procedure.

    Moral of the story: Mathews suffered from nagging and lingering injuries most probably for the above related reasons, although he never publicly tested positive for PEDs. There were always rumors that he was not a "clean" player, but some players react better to certain PEDs than others (genetics and use or overuse play a crucial part in that process) This is not just a rib on Ryan because I won't be surprised if one day, it was revealed that even the mighty LT was on the juice.

    I have even seen your typical none-pro athletes or the weekend warrior types who juice and some of them suffer from some long term effects of accumulated injuries, although paradoxically, some PEDs initially aid and assist in healing injuries. For those who think that Ryan was wrongly or unfairly dismissed, ought to think that with his perpetual history of injuries specially if related to PED use, he was always and will be always that part time RB. I honestly don't care if juice oozes out of Melvin Gordon's or Melvin Ingram's eyes when they shed tears, as long as:

    1- they don't get caught

    2- it aids them to remain more on the field than spend time on IR!

    This is a very dirty side of this Pro Game, so buyers beware!
     
  23. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I'm not sure Eddie Royal rolling into his knee had anything to do with PEDs. And MCL injuries are always 1 month injuries for guys who have to make cuts.

    Or the broken collarbones, that's just bad luck.

    Or the high ankle sprains, which are easy to get when 300 pound linemen roll up on you. I've had a few myself, and once it happens it's more likely to happen again.

    Im not saying your arbitrary post is an ignorant and groundless attempt at character assassination but...;)
     
  24. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    Interpret is as you may Matti, but just because people don't overtly discuss rampant PED use in the NFL, it does not mean that it doesn't exist. Mathews was just an ultra fragile RB and there were reasons for that other than just "bad luck". Nuff said.

    BTW, if you stop trysting with 300 lb. BBWs then your ankles probably won't get rolled up. I can't fathom where else you may have had experience rolling around with 300 lb. monsters, unless you are referring to your QB'ing days at some high school.

    Oops, did I just assassinate your character Matti? Bad, bad Blitzy!

    Just messing with you stud ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
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  25. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Your post about PEDs was completely random and off topic, and I've never once heard anything remotely credible about Ryan Mathews being linked to them. That's all I'm saying.

    Truthfully, I've had two high ankle sprains, the first happened when two linemen rolled over my ankle, and actually stayed on top of it for a good 5 seconds or so (long enough for me to get out every cuss word I knew). It was misdiagnosed as a micro-fracture in the fibula at first, costing me even more time as I wasted about a month in a soft cast (and stupidly refusing to use crutches). Weirdly enough they never once tried to put me in one of those boots at the time.

    Anyway I do speak from experience, high ankle sprains are 4 weeks minimum even when you have competent doctors, as I did the second time.
     
  26. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    Yea... That PED rant was a bit random, but I'd still take a fragile Mathews to be my #2 back over Donald Brown being my #4 for the same price. Whats the worse that can happen? A Cheatriot intentionally trips him again to end his season and MG3 and Oliver gets more touches??
     
  27. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Nobody that wanted Mathews to be kept is suggesting that he should have been our lone primary ball carrier. Everyone that wanted Mathews kept wanted us to take a RB in the draft whether Mathews was ultimately the starter or the #2 RB.

    Reich wants us to run the ball a lot, so we were/are going to need at least two RBs with primary ball carrying ability anyway (which we currently do not have thanks to Telesco's refusal to keep Mathews). Woodhead is a good 3rd down back and Oliver is only a deep reserve emergency (last RB on the roster) type back in terms of his ability (and I hate to say that because I really like and pull for him). D. Brown just flat out sucks.

    Also, it is difficult to escape that the current contracts of Mathews and D. Brown are similar in terms of money. So, if the choice is between Mathews and D. Brown for nearly the same money (D. Brown is actually more expensive this year and next), then it was pretty clearly an error to keep D. Brown over Mathews since Mathews is a superior player by a wide margin.

    Finally, you keep referencing that he played 6 games last year. That is clearly the outlier in his career. He played 12+ games in the other 4 seasons of his career. So, it is more likely than not that he would be good for 12+ games per year going forward. And 12+ games of Mathews is better than 16 games of every RB on our roster right now not named Melvin Gordon.
     
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  28. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    Yea, I really like Oliver as well, but I feel its a good game if we dont have to see him much on the field because I dont see him as a #1 or #2. Just someone u can give touches here and there and still be a lil productive in his limited role. Not exactly to the same extent, but how I see Ricardo Matthews. He would be great in his role as a rotational player coming off the bench to get snaps instead of viewed as a starter solely because Reyes hasnt produced the way we hoped.

    So not to get this twisted, bench/rotational players outplaying starters doesnt necessarily make them starter quality. It should mean u are still looking to replace your failed starter with a starter caliber player so that your role player can still be a role player.
     
  29. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    There is not one shred of evidence that Mathews ever used PEDs.

    After reading the tortured logic set forth in the above post, if I have to accuse someone of being on drugs, I am not going with Mathews.
     
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  30. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    Don't try to get too cute with me Chainy! There are many ways to cloak the use of PEDs in pro sports. Do I believe that Ryan Mathews along with a vast majority of NFL RBs and LBs in particular has dabbled in PEDs? YES! Do I have absolute evidence for it? NO! But there are circumstantial evidences (multitude of injuries while sneezing) that make me believe what I do.

    I am entitled to my opinion on this matter and I did not state them as absolute facts. If you and Mathews don't like it, then bite me. I am at my depth with your bloviation and bloated smug novels! :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2015

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