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General Discussion

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by charger1993, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. Riff Raff

    Riff Raff BoltTalker

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    I think it goes back to Wade, not Rivera. Maybe RR got some of that love too.
     
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  2. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    That was Wade. RR made do with a less talented roster, but teams did run on the Bolts in the RR era.
     
  3. Fossil

    Fossil BoltTalker

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    So it was Wade Phillips 2004-06? Gawd, I'm older than I remembered. Oh, wait. My screen name is Fossil. Forgot that too.

    First instinct is to say bring Wade back if he doesn't get picked up for F/T HC in Houston, but their D is not ranked very good right now. In fact, looking at Yahoo (I know, I know, but it's really farking convenient) stats, the Boltz deef is ranked 13th in points per game allowed at 23.1.

    San Diego Chargers 12 23.1 386.6 117.8 268.8 7 1 7 1 509 48 29.0

    So I'm guessing an argument could be made that if Pagano can do that with a semi-pro MASH unit up front and the stir-fried chicken sh1t we call a secondary, that if we could have some semblance of health next year and a hit on two or three high round defensive draft picks, it's not too big of a stretch to suppose he could lead us into that magical < 20 points allowed per game. That would be put us in pretty good stead in 2014, unless somehow coincidentally the offense or special teams decides to completely suck (see above rant).
     
  4. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

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    Wade was nothing too special. What a roster he had though! Cotrell was hated and underrated
     
  5. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Huh?

    I'm taking a deep breath here and going to really make an attempt to remain civil despite the back and forth we've had in the other thread (I'll be the first to own up to the fact that I'm a prick in general, it is what it is), but how exactly was Ted "Never rush more than 4" Cottrell, who was the first to really institute this heavy (8-yard) cushion approach to lining up the CB's, underrated?
     
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  6. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    The TOP debate is pretty much a staple of the West Coast Offense - you'll find that kind of philosophy in just about every Walsh/Sieffert disciple including Andy Reid, John Fox, Mike Holmgren, Pete Carroll, Mike Shanahan, Mike McCarthy, etc. The only Walsh coordinator that made any deviation from that approach - and even then he stayed in the general orbit of it - was Denny Green.

    If you look at it in the context that those 2010 Patriots I brought up approached it, it really does make a lot of sense because what it does is forces (and places the added pressure in the minds of the opposing offense) that they have to be more efficient than normal in terms of converting their drives to points because they're going to have less opportunities on offense (assuming the opposing/our offense executes properly) in the game as a whole. Added pressure tends to equal higher propensity for mistakes and turnovers - i.e. QB's pushing the envelop and making ill advised throws, RB or receivers trying to force that extra yard after contact and leaving themselves prone to being stripped, etc.).

    I think the Rivera tenure here does illustrate one very valid point though: If a coordinator is willing to be aggressive (not playing "not to lose") and is at least given adequate pieces to fill out his scheme, then you make not have an overall top defense in the league, but you'll have one that functions well in the areas necessary to consistently win football games (creating turnovers, largely forcing the opposition to be one-dimensional thus more predictable). Is Pagano a guy like that? Hard to say. I've seen some instances (the Indy game and the second half of the Broncos game) that lead me to think he's got it in him, but plenty more that just scream "absolutely no." And the thing is, there does come a point where uncertainty as to whether or not is effectively the same thing as being not (if that reads weird, I apologize, but hopefully the gist comes across). Particularly if there's an opportunity available to get someone in who has a proven track records that they "are."
     
  7. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    No more Wade or Steamboat Ron. I think Rex might be just the ticket for the Bolts defense.
     
  8. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    First, until the front offense brings in more D to work with, any new D coordinator isn't going to help much.

    Second, Rex, in my opinion, would have to be clearly superior to any other candidate to make
    enduring his d-bag personality, sideshow/disruption act bearable…
    I guess one could hope that--out of the HC spotlight--Rex would be less prone to being such a drama queen,
    but I sure wouldn't count on it.
     
  9. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    If Pags has to eat the sword as the scapegoat even though the defensive talent isn't there, I'd like to have a backup plan in place.
     
  10. charger1993

    charger1993 bad motherfucker

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    The defense is there, its the scheme we run, it doesnt fit our personnel. The year of dt was last year. Shoulda took star. But we can find a good d.
     
  11. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Well, I wouldn't count on Rex being canned for at least another year, possibly more. If Sanchez hadn't gotten injured and he'd continued to start him over Geno Smith (not that Geno looks like any sort of improvement, but he's also a rookie QB who a number of QB-needy teams passed on in the draft for good reason), then maybe Woody Johnson (Jets owner) gets the burr up his butt to get the forklift necessary to give Rex the ol' heave-ho.

    Thing is, most really good defensive minds tend to either be completely introverted and somewhat antisocial (Dungy, Belichick, Kiffin, Jim Johnson, Ray Horton, Fangio, Smith) or attention-grabbing, loudmouths (every Ryan family member, every Phillips family member, Carroll, Mel Tucker, Ditka, Noll, Cowher, Gregg Williams). Not saying that's what's going on here, but people that pine for Wade again while decrying Rex for being an obnoxious loudmouth must not remember Wade terribly well (and his taunting of other teams' fans and generally overgrown frat-boy demeanor).
     
  12. Riff Raff

    Riff Raff BoltTalker

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    I'll agree the scheme/lack of aggression is part of the problem, but to say that the talent is there is pretty laughable.
     
  13. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Yeah, pretty sure "You can't run" started under Wade - with the Igor/J-Wall/Castillo front three. Believe it was brought back during Rivera's tenure after Ron started tinkering. In between them was that year under Teddy where we would have had no business making that claim, since teams were averaging 4.1 YPA against and 107 yards per game on the ground.
     
  14. Fossil

    Fossil BoltTalker

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    We need Dick LeBeau V2.
     
  15. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

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    What's going to happen to me if you don't?
     
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  16. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I never stated he would be, only my thought of who I think could do a great job. I don't see how they can hang this on Pags, simply as there is very little staring talent and generally medically unable to perform.
     
  17. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I can't agree. In fact, I'd go a step further and say that staring talent is probably their strength right now.

    Heck, there were times Sunday, when all 11 guys seemed to be trying to
    bring down Bengals running backs with their eyes alone!
     
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  18. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Well, there's the fact that he's doing literally one of the same things that Norv was presumably canned for: Failing to adapt (often enough at least, we've seen three full halves out of 24 so far) the scheme to account for deficiencies - those that either existed initially or that grew from the absorbent amount of injuries. Rivera managed to do it just fine. McCoy and Whisenhunt have done it fairly well (not fantastically, but much improved over previous seasons) on the offensive side of the ball.

    There's also the fact that in the nearly two seasons he's been our DC we've seen the basic technical fundamentals of a good amount of our defensive players significantly downgrade. The piss-poor tackling of just about every player on defense not named Weddle (even Butler's been sloppier this season than in seasons past) is nearly enough to call for the man's head. If his unit is failing to execute basic fundamentals, there's little hope for success.

    My point, I won't speak for others but mine at the very least, is not that he should wholesale be fired, but if there is clearly a more proven and better option available (as there was this past offseason when Spanos force-fed Pagano as a contingency of any HC hiring) then Pagano's body of work doesn't make a strong enough case for not cutting bait.

    But I suppose I should pose this question? For those making the argument that Pagano's job should be wholesale safe because of the "lack of talent" argument - what specifically has Pags done to convince you that if given the talent we'll suddenly make some great jump in the overall production of our defense? We had, arguably, more talent (at least insomuch as the guys we now bemoan that we lost to free agency from last season: Phillips, Franklin, Martin, Barnes) last season and still were among the 3 worst teams in the league in surrendering 3rd-down-conversions to opposing teams - and that's one hell of a vital stat to winning games. That Pagano-led defense, with more talent than the current one, surrendered how many second half leads (and yes, I will acknowledge that Rivers' turnover propensity at times left them in some pretty crappy field positioning, but still... no lead was safe)? What is inspiring people to want him kept? His brother's name? The fact that he "developed" Merriman and Phillips? Thus far all he's really managed to do is be better than Manusky - and only marginally so as he's basically reverted to running the exact same scheme/tendencies that Manusky was.
     
  19. Moses

    Moses Yeah Buddy!

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    I don't really blame Pagano for the defense this year. I don't think we have the personnel to be a great run stopping defense. It's not like when we had Jamal Williams in his prime clogging up the middle.

    I think our D would be a lot different if we'd had Ingram and Freeney available to us, when you don't pressue the opposing QB and he has all day to make a throw, you really expect Derek Cox to stop anyone?
     
  20. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    You mean it's not as good as when we had a perennial Pro Bowl NT in his prime. Moses, when I say this please know that if it comes across as totally dickish it's mostly just because I'm normally a prick, but... YOU DON'T SAY?!

    Again, refer to what I wrote in the post just prior to yours. Did he not have adequate (not great, but certainly adequate) talent last year and yet that defense still wasn't effective for a full 4 quarters, folded like paper mache. Rivera suffered injuries with the defense he coordinated and yet, after making adjustments to scheme and approach, that defense did just fine - and this was with Rivera started a former Budget Rent-a-Car employee from the year prior at NT.
     
  21. Moses

    Moses Yeah Buddy!

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    I used Jamal as one specific example to illustrate my point that we don't have the same level of talent with regards to run blocking nowadays. Maybe it was stating the obvious, but to he honest the topic of our team no longer being good against the run is just as painfully obvious every Sunday afternoon unfortunately.

    I would say this is probably the weakest against the run I've seen our team. Whether it's down to just not having good enough players or the coaching, I honestly don't know for sure. I don't believe Cam Thomas is an adequate NT or anything more than a rotation guy, but whether Rivera could do better with this group, who knows.
     
  22. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    As I said in the other post... Rivera at least shifted things around to get the most out of what he had. At best, I can say Pagano's done that infrequently and inconsistently. I share you lack of faith in Cam, but (again, as I said in the other post of mine) if a proven, better option is available, I don't believe Pagano has done enough to merit TWICE passing on superior options, as he's already been given that pass once.
     
  23. ETicket

    ETicket Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't waste your time. The fact that BBB (or is it OZ?) has some football knowledge, apparently took a few philosophy courses and may have been a member of his HS debate team doesn't make him any less a troll.
     
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  24. Riff Raff

    Riff Raff BoltTalker

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    I'm merely pointing out that the dearth of talent/depth is a big issue as well. That in NO WAY amounts to any sort of wholesale endorsement to retain Pagano. I think that he & Meeks should both be replaced.
     
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