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Grading the Draft

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by matilack, May 2, 2015.

  1. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Because I got football on the brain.


    15 - RB Melvin Gordon: A. We gave up the picks and that's fine with me because I believe he is special. The Chargers are 37-14 since 2006 when they have a RB who goes over 100 yards. This offense was entirely different with a healthy Ryan Mathews, and it will be great again with the ultra reliable Melvin Gordon. He's a true 3 down back, he can hit the long ball, and he'll be a great presence in the locker room.


    48 - ILB Denzel Perryman: B. I like the player a lot. He's a locker room leader, a fire breather, and he plays with a serious chip on his shoulder. But we had bigger needs at more important positions. The reality that nobody wants to admit that is Donald Butler has a huge edge to start this year given both his experience in the 3-4 (which Perryman doesn't have) and the politics around his contract. If it's a close race, Butler will start. If he plays well...then what?


    83 - DB Craig Mager: D-. This made me cringe. First of all it's a clear reach. I don't see any way he contributes to our 2015 effort, which wouldn't be such a big deal except there were guys on the board who definitely could have. You can say he projects as a safety, but that will still be a multi-year project because it's a position change. He's a good athlete with poor instincts, the best we have to hope for is he's Marcus Gilchrist 2.0.


    153 - OLB Kyle Emanuel: B+. Proper value at a position of need. There will be a learning curve for this kid coming from a small school, but ultimately you can't complain about his upside for a 5th round pick. He's a highly intelligent player who should pass Tourek Williams on the depth chart with ease. Needs to hit the weight room.


    192 - DT Darius Philon: A. Great value here, the kid made a real mistake declaring a year early, to our benefit. He's a 3-tech penetrator with an elite burst off the line for a man his size. He needs to hit the weight room, but he'll likely be a 3rd down interior specialist for us.

    Overall Grade: B


    Reason for optimism: The threat of Melvin Gordon will take pressure off of Rivers to carry this entire offense. He’s the perfect complement to Woodhead and Oliver. And we still do have plenty of weapons (in the short term) with Gates, Allen, Floyd, and Johnson. I also still have high hopes for LaDarius Green if Reich ever figures out how to use him. Defensively we have a solid secondary for the first time in recent memory, and we bolstered the depth on our LB corps with Perryman and Emanuel, this was an absolute MUST after losing the guys we did.

    Reason for concern: I don’t like our offensive or defensive lines. They say games are won and lost in the trenches, and in my opinion we have serious questions regarding both. As always I don’t trust Fluker, a mistrust that was underscored by Justin Houston blasting him in week 17 last year. Johnnie Troutman is also still penciled in as our starter at RG, despite being ranked by Pro Football Focus as the 2nd worst OG in the entire league in 2014. Also Chris Watt is in the middle of transitioning to center.

    Defensively, we passed on Carl Davis in round 3!:tdown: An opportunity to not only bolster depth along the entire D-line and immediately upgrade on Reyes, but possibly replace Corey Liuget if we can’t lock him up long term. Ryan Carrethers is going to have to step up tremendously, and Lissemore is likely going to have to start at DE. We're also putting a lot of pressure on Ingram and Attaochu to perform and stay healthy, because we don't really have much behind them.

    We'll probably still have some $10M in cap space after signing the rookies, I hope we do something about the lines.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  2. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    I don't really have much to add to this, all fair grades in my opinion. I will reserve judgement on Mager because quite frankly I don't know enough about him to give an accurate grade. I feel like your D- is a gut reaction based on disappointment that we didn't go with a different position (Davis or Cooper maybe) as opposed to honest talent evaluation. Totally understandable, I didn't see that coming either. I'm not going to give it a bad grade right now because Kiper/Mcshay and the so called "draft experts" call it a reach. I'll give our talent evaluators the benefit of the doubt here. Again, I'm sure many of us were pulling for Nix last year in the 2nd or 3rd when he "unbelievably fell" and he hasn't done anything in Houston to the point I read he'll be fighting for his roster spot in camp. So I'll withhold judgement for now on the Mager pick. Although I have to admit that it did have the feeling of we were desperate for a secondary guy and we reached on the highest rated guy at that position on the board, instead of just BPA. My experience with the Chargers when we do that hasn't been good ( see Buster Davis, Larry English, Antoine Cason etc). Really hope Mager bucks thirteen and surprises us all.

    I also want to express my displeasure that our organization as a whole obviously does not value lineman early in the draft. This baffles me to no end. Football is won in the trenches, rarely if ever does a team win a game, let alone be playoff/Super Bowl contenders with subpar line play. I agree that Fluker is still a huge question mark at RT, I'm ok with giving him one more year (maybe he trims down/refines his technique) to see if he can hold up out there, but I have my doubts. As much as I like Perryman as a player, and I'm excited to see him on the field, the wiser choice there would have been Jake Fisher. The offseason isn't over yet, long way to go before the season starts and we have some cap to play with so hopefully we will make a few more additions before or during camp.

    As far as grading this draft, I think Gordon and Perryman are slam dunks, the final grade will depend on Mager/Emmanuel/Philon. If one of those guys becomes an above average player and one or both stick on the team and contribute its an A. If all three fall on their face its a C-.
     
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  3. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    Franklin won't up grade our line? The left side looks borderline Elite with those big men. I hear the injury really hampered Fluker and he should be a lot better this season. Although he probably won't ever be the quick footed Elite RT we want.

    Only probably I have on Offense is a deep threat at WR. JJ is old and probably doesn't have it anymore. I hear we got T.Williams as UDFA and maybe he can stretch the field. It's like no one was to use Ladarius Green as decoy WR, the guy has wheels and Reich and McCoy are killing me me with there incompetence at his usage.

    My favorite player to watch this will be Jerry Attaochu and his development. I hate looking to potential because his injury concerns are legitimate but he can be a Elite Pass Rusher for us.
     
  4. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Craig Mager seems like a really good kid, with a great story, I am happy for him. He's a good tackler and has potential upside, but he even said he felt he was going in the 5th round and his agent said he may have a team look at him in the 4th. Taking him in the high/mid 3rd round with no trade back was a huge reach, there is no other way to put it.

    Perryman is a very hard hitting ILB, could be a very good pick for us but this one too has me scratching my head at their overall intentions, when we have a high paid LB who is uncuttable at the moment and another high drafted ILB coming into his second year, The need was just not as great, and to me there were greater needs that met with BPA.

    Kyle Emanuel, I like this pick, I think the kid has a great motor and stives for great things, I just wished this was the second helping to a double dip, I wish they went pass rusher 3rd and 5th

    Darius Philon, very high potential to be a good DE for us but again, he may not contribute right away and we have many of the same on our roster at the moment, Reyes, Mathews, Lissemore and now Philon, good value at the pick though

    Gordon at the top was a home run, the setting to start this thing off was fun, electric, the tempo was "We're in it to win it right now, Rivers window is closing, lets do it Baby! lets get him some weapons to play with" Days 2 and 3 were like "slow your role, we're rebuilding"

    My main gripe is what I said yesterday, what identity are they aiming for? aside from choir boys who love their momma's
    Last year they said they're looking for speed and this year they targeted slower thumpers.

    I like all the players picked in their own right but still this draft leaves me with more questions than answers in which direction their aiming for.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
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  5. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    1. Absolutely I admit it, part of the negative grade is due to who we passed on. The other part is that I just don't think he's that good. I mean his best asset is his tackling....that's an extremely dubious compliment for a CB.:rolleyes:

    2. I highly suspect (given the Mager pick) that Telesco's original intention was to draft S/CB Eric Rowe at 48, before the Eagles jumped ahead of us. I would have been happy with that because Rowe can ball! At the very least he'd have taken Addae's spot, and possibly succeeded Eric Weddle should we not be able to re-sign him. Remember Telesco does come from the Polian tree, his lack of respect for interior OL can only be expected.

    3. I could see all 3 being solid depth role players. IMO Philon has the best chance of actually being a starter someday because there is always a market for interior pass rushers, and he is extremely quick.

    I hope Mager works out and that everyone else underrated him (including himself!), but it smells an awful lot like Jonas Mouton to me. I'm getting tired of the choir boy archetype Telesco is committed to.

    Side note: IF La'el Collins is cleared, and Telesco can land him, I will give this draft an A grade without hesitation.
     
  6. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Franklin will upgrade 1 position. There are still 3 others with serious questions.

    Chris Watt needs to learn how to play center, DJ Fluker needs to get better, and Johnnie Troutman needs to get lost.
     
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  7. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    To give Fluker the benefit of the doubt he has been training very hard to work on his foot quickness and to get better, He's nearly posting vine clips of him training almost every day, and looks more athletic now than he did a year ago.

    I'm just praying Hairston comes into camp and just balls where they have no choice but to put him in at RG or RT.

    Another player I think they are very high on is Jeremiah Sirles and are hopeful he takes a big leap into his 2nd season. Watt could take a giant leap into his second year as well now that he has one position to play and get ready for and getting stronger, but I believe if they had a solid RG both Fluker and Watt would benefit greatly by it. Toutman getting the nod by default is just a terrible idea.
     
  8. Moses

    Moses Can You Stand The Rain?

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    Overall I'd give our draft a B grade. I think we got some good players, but some questionable decisions too.

    Starting in the first, the pick of Melvin Gordon. Shame we had to come up and get him, but we've got ourselves a very good player, who will likely make a big impact right from the get-go. Gives us a nice backfield combination with him, Woodhead & Branden Oliver. Could mean the end for Donald Brown.

    Second round pick Denzel Perryman was an interesting one. I love the player, love his ferocity, love the opportunity to add a hard hitting intimidating guy in the middle of our defense. However, I thought we could've went in a different direction that might have given us better value. I'm not ready to give up on Butler yet either, I think he could have a bounce-back season, but if he does that'll be great and we have some depth at the ILB position, and quality insurance against injury.

    Third round pick to me was the worst part of this draft. Not a need, not a value selection, and to me not even someone who seems like he has huge potential either.

    Back on it in the 5th round, I think Kyle Emmanuel was a great pick from what I've read since. Value, fits a need, and seems like the type of guy you'd want on your football team. Also another tough hitter, which is always a good thing to have. Followed that up in the 6th with Darius Philon, who despite my initial "who the f*** is he" reaction, seems to actually be a good value pick, even if he does sound more suited for a 4-3.

    All in all not bad, they came in with a plan to get tougher and seem to have done so. Day 1 & 3 seemed to go pretty well, day 2 had the question marks. Now all teams are probably just waiting for their ticket in the La'el Collins sweepstakes
     
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  9. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Melvin Gordon - A
    Yeah we traded picks to do it, but the trade was inline with the other trade up in that round. Gordon is an instant upgrade at the weakest point on roster.

    Denzel Perryman - B+
    Need was lower but universally held to be one of the best ILBs in draft. Protection in event Butler fails, and a great player.

    Craig Mager - C-
    As everyone noted, reach and absolutely not a need. Hard to understand why you'd pass up OL/DL upgrades for him. Think he can be a SS but that'll come next year, not what you want from a 3rd rounder.

    Kyle Emanuel - B
    Best OLB left on the board, definitely a need, and provides good depth at the position. BPA finally paid off.

    Darius Philon - B+
    One of the best players left, could be great nickel rusher but still not sure how he fits within the 3-4.

    Overall: C
    You came away with maybe two needs filled, you ignored a bunch of others. I understand the mindset (HAMMER) but we still have a lot of needs.
     
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  10. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Man Atlanta owned this draft

    Vic Beasley
    Jalen Colins
    Tevin Coleman
    Justin Hardy
    Grady Jarrett

    Were their first 5 picks
     
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  11. Okie

    Okie BoltTalker

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    His OTA should consist of being strapped to a feed bag. Hire the SEAL who put 40 pounds of muscle on Bradley Cooper.
     
  12. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    According to draft pundits maybe. Beasley is a speed player and racked up a lot of sacks flying by guys off the edge. Gonna need to develop more than that to beat NFL tackles. I do like him though, but in the word of Parcells, I'll hold off on the anointing oils. Not a fan of Jalen Collins. H/W/S guy with 9 career starts. I put on the tape and wasnt real impressed. Coleman is a straight line speed guy who exploded thru open holes, not much wiggle or elusiveness tho. Those huge holes won't be there as often in the NFL, curious to see how he does. Hardy and Jarrett were good value where they were selected. Not sure Hardy has the separation skills for the NFL and Jarrett is a little undersized.
     
  13. scratchnz

    scratchnz BoltTalker

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    Alot of people have been saying that the Denzel Perryman pick was strange because it didn't fit a need, but this is a classic Best Player Available pick! Butler had a bad year and maybe the Chargers top brass think there might be something more serious around Butler than just one bad season. But also Butler is not a THUMPER in the run game and is much more suitedd to 3rd downs. Maybe Perryman with start in defence with Butler coming in on passing plays.
     
  14. scratchnz

    scratchnz BoltTalker

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    AGREED! Atlanta had a great draft!!

    Special mentions to Cleveland, Baltimore and the Giants too who all filled needs with quality starting material.
     
  15. scratchnz

    scratchnz BoltTalker

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    Two day one starters, two players who will provide depth on defence and one big boom or bust project in Mager. Sounds like a pretty good draft to me! There have been plenty of worse ones than that one...right?
     
  16. Ride The Lightning

    Ride The Lightning Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.

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    3 year rule always in effect.
     
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  17. Nomad

    Nomad Very Senior Member

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    Incomplete.
     
  18. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    In deed. Will be grading TT's 1st draft of 2013: Fluker, Te'O, Allen, Steve Williams, Tourek William, Brad Sorenson at the end of this season. To me so far the 2013 draft looks B- to C+

    P.S. My generosity for that draft grade comes because of my high respect for Allen's rookie year and knowing now that he was a steal in the 3rd round. Disappointment in Fluker & Te'O as being average players so fat (C grade) Writing off the other two!
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
  19. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    Te'o had good season on the back end. I don't think he's ever going to be that 100 tackles back. I do have Perryman coming in and making a impact.
     
  20. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    I expect him to improve on that late success if he can avoid his foot injuries. With Perryman picking up the slack which Butler left all over the field last year, ought to bring about some changes for the better too.
     
  21. powayslugger

    powayslugger Feckless Slappy

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    15 - RB Melvin Gordon: A. We got the RB we needed. To all you guys out there who think we overpaid to trade up... well I guess we should have lost more games last season then. Gordon was a hot commodity and might have been gone at 17.

    48 - ILB Denzel Perryman: B for value (C if we're grading on need). This was a head scratcher. Unless, of course TT has determined the bad Butler we saw last year is going to be the Butler we see this season. Either way, I think we'll still need another ILB because of the injury prone history of Butler and Teo... so I'm guessing this pick works.

    83 - DB Craig Mager: F . This is a WTF pick. In spite of all the positive spin the Chargers are putting on it, I think he still would be on the board in 6th round. Maybe even an UDFA guy. So he's a gamer- but he's not a legit 3rd round pick. Will he be a CB or S? Who knows. Hope he doesn't turn into a training camp body who rots on the PS for two years (because we picked him in 3rd round). Sorry but this is not the sure thing you expect in the third round.

    153 - OLB Kyle Emanuel: C. Small college guy- from a solid small college program. Hoping he translates that into NFL talent. It's a big jump in competition. For a 5th rounder you don't expect much- maybe I'll be surprised.

    192 - DT Darius Philon: A. I like this pick. Didn't expect much but a good value for so late in the draft. Good scouting job. Comes from a big time school and is a big boy. Lots of speed... everyone says... if so that's okay by me.

    1 sure starter, 2 possibles, a good backup and a WTF maybe... not great- but not bad.

    Overall Grade: B-/C+
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
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  22. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Can't make any definitive statements at this point. I remember when I was a kid and Tony Mandarich was the highest-rated offensive line prospect in the history of the league. The truth is that you just can't know at this point.

    I will say that both Gordon and Perryman look like they have the potential to be pro-bowl quality players.
     
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  23. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    NFL.com had a 4th/5th round grade on the kid, so to say he would have been there in the 6th or later seems like BS.
     
  24. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Looking into Butler's contract and our cap situation, I wouldn't be entirely shocked if he got cut in the pre-season.

    Cutting him would cost us $3M in 2015 cap space (roughly) which sucks, but isn't crippling. The upside is it would save us about $10M in cap space next year, thereby essentially paying for Eric Weddle. If we wait to cut him we only save $2.5M against the cap in 2016, which is obviously not much considering Rivers and Liuget are also up for new deals.
     
  25. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Valuing high character and passing on guys with legitimate concerns in the character column does not equate to "only drafts choir boys". I know that's a popular tongue-in-cheek joke, but it isn't something that should be taken completely serious and not treated like the hyperbole that it is.

    We passed on Randy Gregory... for very good reason. We passed on La'el Collins - like the entire rest of the league did - for good reason. Where exactly were we passing on other guys because of character in this class?

    It's not like TT hasn't shown that he's willing to draft guys who have questionable pasts if they convince him and the scouting team in the interview that it's all behind them and are perfectly honest with him. The guy values honesty - as any good boss should. It's something our quarterback is quite outspoken about valuing, too.
     
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  26. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    We get that by trading him just as easily as cutting him. Just saying. He's basically playing for his livelihood this season regardless because his option bonus kicks in next year, I believe - and that's a $12m option.

    Who knows? Dangle him in front of Chip Kelly and Philly for Evan Mathis?
     
  27. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    It may be beneficial for both the Team and this Player to part ways this season, so that it is win-win for both. I seriously think that he may have burned some bridges in that locker room. A professional football player, least not a linebacker, should not go from hero to zero in the manner in which Donald Butler did.

    His sudden incognito and ineffectual presence was so inexplicable which went beyond the realm of undisclosed injuries. My worst fear being that the malaise afflicting Mr. Butler being psychological in its nature makes it that much more apt to part ways as an investment which went awry.
     
  28. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I never hold my breath for trades, particularly when we're talking about ILBs, but especially ones who have huge contracts. Having said that the team that acquired him would have an opt out after 2016, so maybe it's possible we could get a day 3 pick.
     
  29. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I wasn't talking about Randy Gregory. I was never head over heals with his skills as most were, as we discussed in the draft forum. And the Collins situation is obviously a special situation, if he's cleared I expect ALL 32 teams will take a run at him.

    But I'm curious now, who did Telesco draft with a questionable past?
     
  30. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    It's hard to deny that there weren't at least some character concerns with Te'o - they may have been over something that a lot of people had a good laugh at and ribbed him over, but if prospective employers were concerned about honesty, this is a guy who perpetuated a lie for quite some time to the national media.

    It was also a late flag to come in the draft process, but there was that bit about Fluker (and 2 or 3 other Bama prospects that year) having prematurely accepted money and gifts from the agents that represented them. Again, we haven't seen him draft anyone with past drug/alcohol/arrest issues - but he did spend his first two draft picks as Chargers GM on guys who had specific character questions to have to answer for in the interview process.
     

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