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If we aren't going to upgrade the NT...

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by And_1, Jan 17, 2015.

  1. And_1

    And_1 BoltTalker

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    Why are we even running the 3-4? Personally I love the 3-4 but isnt NT an essential piece? Is it due to the percentage of times out defense is actually in the 3-4 formation? I feel ignorant almost asking these questions but I'm here to be educated.
     
  2. Fossil

    Fossil BoltTalker

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    Disruptive OLB helps out too.
     
  3. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think we aren't going to upgrade NT?
     
  4. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    While a disruptive OLB is also a key ingredient, OLB's are limited as to what they can do with little to no help inside. Having a dominate NT will create more opportunities for OLB's to have their way. As well as create different blitz packages from a defensive standpoint.
     
  5. Andres M188

    Andres M188 BoltTalker

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    Is there any good 3-4 NT's in Free Agency? I think Suh and Pot Roast are available but I think they both operate on a 4-3 base.
     
  6. gonzokrb

    gonzokrb Well-Known Member

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    There are 3 really good NT in FA. BJ from the Packers and his understudy, Cody from Baltimore. Additionally there are some very promising candidates in the draft.
     
  7. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    If we we're going to upgrade at NT in the draft in the top end of the draft, he better be the next Haloti Ngata.
     
  8. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Both help. Fact is for a 3-4 to be the way that most of us want a defense to be period, the simple fact is you have to have multiple dominant players in your front 7 PERIOD... where precisely isn't as important as others make it out to be - though it's preferable that if you only have two that they not play directly beside one another because teams will simply gameplan to shift the pocket/QB/run away from their side.

    What's a bit disconcerting is that people act like consistently dominant NT's grow on trees or are so easy to just pick up and acquire. The key word there is consistent. Plenty of NT's have been dominant for 1-2 year stretches, very, very few managed to sustain that dominance the way that J-Wall did (you're basically looking at Wilfork, Hampton, J-Wall, and now Poe and Brandon Mebane - Raji's not consistent, Snacks Harrison's (NYJ) performance this year paled in comparison to his 2013 dominance, Ngata plays as many - if not more - snaps at jumbo-DE as he does at the 0-Tech, Dan Williams and Glenn Dorsey (while yes, better than Lissemore) are hardly what I'd call dominant. Even when we had Garay and later Franklin, neither could string together more than two seasons of productivity before their performance fell off a cliff (whether that poor performance season was with us or the team after us). Moreover, how many 3-4 NT's came into the league and actually produced at a noteworthy level in their first year? Honest question, because Casey Hampton and Ngata were both played as 5-Tech's as rookies; Poe split his time there as well, Raji was playing in what was largely a 2-man front where Ryan Pickett was lining up over the center more often than he was.

    Point being, yes, Lissemore is much more a 5-Tech than he is a nose. But why in the hell are we just arbitrarily tossing Carrethers out with the bath water because "he wasn't dominant" as a rookie (something historically very, very rare)? In the limited reps we saw from Carrethers, the line as a whole definitely appeared more effective. I'd contend supplanting Reyes with a guy who can play jumbo-DE and rotate inside for Carrethers on passing downs does a hell of a lot more for the front seven as a whole than just a plain "upgrading the NT" does - especially given the options I've seen thrown around by people on several Chargers boards.
     
  9. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Huh? Terrance Cody... really good? What are you on and where can I get some?

    Cody is a rotational run-stopper whose been replaced in Baltimore entirely at this point by the combination of Timmy Jernigan and Brandon Williams after he entered the year literally competing for a roster spot in a contract year. Raji has been wildly inconsistent leading up to his recent spat of injuries, on a pretty steady decline, and has had season-ending injuries that required surgery in both of the past two years. His backup Guion is a journeyman - not what I'd call dominant by any stretch - who yes, has been successful in Capers' scheme (which is different from what the scheme we run) that's as much a 2-5 as it is a 3-4 and sometimes only operates with a single downed-lineman (Capers and Rob Ryan are the ones notorious for running the Amoeba package).
     
  10. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Suh can play any interior line position. That said, he's "trying to build his brand" so he's not going to be keen on being a "block eater" so that other guys can make plays, he wants to be the one sacking the QB and blowing up runs because that makes him more marketable. He's also going to cost an arm and a leg (Gerald McCoy just got a contract that averages $15m annual; I have a hard time seeing Suh accepting or getting less on the open market).

    Pot Roast will almost assuredly either stay in Denver or follow Del Rio to Oakland - and honestly, he's really only been consistent with Del Rio, his production fell off during the Mularkey year and the first Gus Bradley year in Jacksonville, including in his contract year.

    Kenrick Ellis is definitely worth a look and it'll be interesting to see how things shake out considering I had him pegged as a guy to follow Rex, but Rex just went to his DL wet dream where they already have Dareus and Kyle Williams at the DT spots; going to Cleveland with Rex-protege Pettine is also an option for him too as they'll likely have a need.

    Dan Williams is serviceable, but nothing special - and that was as much as he could manage to distinguish himself while benefiting from playing with two dominant 5-Tech's beside him for most of his rookie contract in Campbell and Dockett.

    Ahtyba Rubin's play has declined the past couple years, but he could be a worthy flier if the guaranteed money isn't bad. Otherwise the market is pretty lackluster - guys that have played the position (Mike Patterson, Ryan Pickett, Ishmaa'ily Kitchen, Chris Neild, Dwan Edwards) but no one that blows your skirt up.
     
  11. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    I thought Carrethers was dominant in some phases. If I'm not mistaken, I saw him use a swim move and swallow up the RB, forgot who it was against though :unsure:
     
  12. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Think it was Oakland.

    This is what I'm saying though. This whole "we have to go all out to upgrade the NT" kind of ignores that we have a guy on the roster who showed a ton of promise at a position where players very, very rarely show promise as rookies unless they're playing out of position.

    Would it be fantastic to have the second coming of J-Wall? Hell yes it would. Can we still build and maintain a dominant defense if all Carrethers becomes is another Kelly Gregg? No question, we can. We simply need someone more than Liuget (and Ingram on creative blitzes or stunts) who can penetrate from the front seven. Liuget's in a position where he's always going to be limited because he's constantly going to be held and the foul rarely called - that's the life of an interior DL and puts into perspective how truly special players like JJ Watt (and J-Wall, though holding was called a bit more often back then) are, because Watt is held around 90% of the time and still consistently makes plays despite it.
     
  13. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    What we need most, is an upgrade of Reyes..... he's not the type of player we need to bookend Liuget. Carrethers (if he stays healthy) should continue to develop. He has the build to be a true NT. That's not the case with Lissemore, or any of the other guys currently on the roster.
     
  14. tito

    tito BoltTalker

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    Having two DE's that are as effective in the as 34 DE and offer decent pressure inside on our 4 man fronts is probably a much better use of resources considering we aren't playing our 34 base in at least 50% of our plays. If we had the rare bird like Jamal Williams that could play NT and also play inside on our rush line than that would be awesome, but I really don't ever see that happening again. He was a rare player for 3-4 years after that switch to the 34. Best we can hope for a I think now is a big fatty that holds his own at NT and comes out on passing downs.

    Lets get another DE and finally make OLB's a strength of the team.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015
  15. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    Believe so.

    Who do you like as 5-techs? Not much in free agency with value there. I really like Henry Anderson from Stanford. I think we can sign a depth guy at NT, like your favorite Kenrick Ellis, and kick Lissemore out at DE. Anderson and Reyes could be GREAT rotational guys on 3rd down. I think Anderson struggles with leverage at times in the run game and similar to Reyes, both get put on skates. I think having Lissemore as the predominant, run stopping DE with guys like Anderson/Reyes in sub packages would benefit the DL.

    Not to mention, Palepoi showed some flashes throughout the year. And Mathews was solid for the most part.
     
  16. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    He'll likely work out a deal or get franchised by Miami, but Odrick's the only real "realistic" standout in free agency. If Jordan Phillips' back checks out, I do like him as a jumbo-DE/5-Tech who can kick inside for Carrethers at the 0-Tech on passing downs. Preston Smith has the tools, but he's going to be in high demand. I'm not opposed to Armstead, but I'm also convinced that both he and Bud Dupree may well be gone by the time our pick in the 1st round rolls around. I like the potential of having Mario Edwards add bulk and play the spot. Undersized, perhaps, but potential to be dynamic and once he's up to speed, the ability to move Ingram around would make it really hard to gameplan against us because we force other teams to account for two legit pass-rushers on a single side without having to stack either of the 5-Tech's or OLB's. I like Christian Covington - I'm not sure I like spending the likely cost to acquire him (likely would cost our 2nd barring a trade-back; I'd value him more mid to late 3rd or a bit back because he's still got growing to do). Carl Davis may never be dynamic, but his consistency makes up for it. Not that either guys are quite at this level, but Davis would/could likely ma out as a poor-man's Ty Warren to Liuget's Richard Seymour.

    And then there's my man-crush: Xavier Williams. He can play 0-Tech, 1-Tech, 5-Tech, and 3-Tech. I kind of love the idea of not being pigeonholed into having to play him at the 0-Tech all the time, because he's a natural penetrator. He's also got comparable if not better feet than Reyes does right now, so less concerns about him being washed out on run plays because of only knowing how to penetrate and not being able to set up guys for counter moves or stunning, stacking, and moving laterally down the line to follow the play and make a play on the runner/QB.

    I figure that if we have someone else who can spell Carrethers' passing-down reps at the 0-T, then that likely frees up Lissemore to move to 5-Tech full-time, in the interim at least - I'm not expecting someone to out and out displace a starter right out the gate unless we're getting phenomenal value or spending a 1st round pick. But a mid-season downed-line of X. Williams - Carrethers - Liuget is straight up beefy (about 30 pounds light of a half-ton on the DL).
     

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