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Josh Barfield traded to Cleveland.

Discussion in 'All Other Sports' started by HollywoodLeo, Nov 8, 2006.

  1. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    Nice

    Sure it is. I'll boast anytime a San Diego based team wins their division. I don't care what kind of excuses anybody wants to put on it.

    Do you think the 49er fans blew off their 1994 Superbowl championship because the competition in the SB was weak?... let that one sink in for a bit. (and no, i'm not saying divisional championship is the same, just making a point.)

    Well, yeah. A World Series appearance is definitely better than just winning the division. That kinda goes without saying.


    For starters you can't say that because they would've played a different schedule.

    But that's besides the point, because you want to know what the funny thing about "if" is? It's not reality. The reality is the Padres are, once again, defending NL West champions.


    Yeah, that's it. They only made the playoffs, nothing to brag about...

    ok

    It seems to me they smaked in enough to win the division two years in a row.

    I jumped to a simple conclusion there, most Charger fans say that.

    However, I don't see you on here talking about how inept the Chargers are despite their recent lack of success as compared to the Padres. (They're going to the Superbowl this year, however...)

    The offseason has just started, of course you don't see a winning product on the field yet.

    Now you're confusing me. First you insinuate that the Padres management isn't as satisified with their titles as I appear to be because they let Bochy go, you go on to inform me how he couldn't get the job done....then you completely change your tone and remind me how inept the personnel apparantly are.

    Obviously there's changes that need to be made... and they're making them.

    Are you insinuating there's no hope of the Padres winning? :rolleyes:

    I never said it made you less of a fan. I mentioned my season ticket years because you questioned if I go to games or not.

    I've been following this team since I was 7 years old in 1987.

    You think I haven't been through inept seasons and piss poor management?

    The difference between me and a lot of Padres fans I talk to is that I can differentiate between current Padres management and Padres management from years past.
     
  2. tboltzcali

    tboltzcali Well-Known Member

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    I say there is no hope if they keep trading away there young talent. Look at the braves. They rarely sign the big guys. Alot of there talent has come out of there farm system. And yet, this is the first year in like 14 that they didnt win there division.

    NL West is a weak division, kinda reminds me of the NFC West these days. The Padres wont compete for the title unless they bring in top notch FA this year. There pitching is solid but what did that bring us this past year. If we dont get hitters that can get it done, I believe we will faulter once again.

    Theres no hope if they dont get the players to carry this club. I see the reasoning behind the barfield trade, but come on now, would you rather watch a young prospect grow into the system than watch an old replacement?
     
  3. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you if they were just trading talent to trade it.

    THAT is the main reason they have stumbled the past few years...bad drafting.

    But, if you listen to Sandy Alderson and Grady Fuson (who have only been on board for 2 years now) they're well on their way to changing that.

    Trading Barfield wouldn't seem so bad if he wasn't one of only 2 or 3 guys that they actually developed well. You use the Braves as an example...but they continously produce blue chip product right and left.

    In the past decade who have the Padres produced? Barfield, Peavy, Khalil, maybe Nady? Ben Johnson I suppose? There isn't much.

    That's what they're in the process of fixing. The past two years' drafts have been well from what I understand.

    I think they should...and will....bring in good free agents. But the problem with free agents is that you generally have to pay them more than what they're worth...or else some other team will.

    I think they should since they have the money this year, but for the most part what they REALLY have to do is develop the players....much like you said in the first paragraph.

    Yeah, i'd like to watch the prospect grow...but they still have to put together a team.

    Hopefully as the farm system gets stronger they can afford to trade away good prospects without as much backlash from the fans...because there'll be another one right behind him.
     
  4. tboltzcali

    tboltzcali Well-Known Member

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    Just got an email from Lyle Spencer, a columnist for the Padres. He said possible on Zito, long shot on Soriano, no on Ramirez, and a maybe on Maddux. Also said they are after some japanese players as well. Looks like I will do alot of red sox watching this year, especially when they come to our stadium!
     
  5. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    So, if they bring in Zito and Maddux and a couple highly touted japanese players you'll write them off?
     
  6. tboltzcali

    tboltzcali Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much, no clutch hitters, no power hitters, sounds boring to me. Atleast I can watch Big Papi tee off!
     
  7. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    A lot of good Big Papi teeing off did the Red Sox last year.

    As I recall they sat at home as the Padres' boring brand of baseball was in the playoffs.
     
  8. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, though.

    You would write off a team with a pitching rotation of

    Jake Peavy
    Barry Zito
    Greg Maddux
    Chris Young
    Clay Hensley

    I'd salivate over that rotation.
     
  9. tboltzcali

    tboltzcali Well-Known Member

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    Boston was hit with the injury bug.

    We wont have anything to back that pitching up. You saw what the cards did to us in the playoffs.
     
  10. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    while I'd salivate over that as well
    A. How much will that cost
    B. Based on A what happens to our offense

    Frankly if we get Barry Zito I want to trade one of our pitchers and I'd suggest it be Peavy
     
  11. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    C. Josh Bard
    1B. Adrian Gonzalez
    2B. Marcus Giles or Mark Loretta
    SS. Khalil Greene
    3B. Kouz/Japanese guy (I forget the name of that guy they're persuing)
    LF. Dave Roberts or Ben Johnson
    CF. Mike Cameron
    RF. Brian Giles

    The above, albeit nothing spectacular, would be good enough to win with the dominating pitching staff that we'd have if Zito and Maddux were brought in.

    That being said, i'm still not confident Zito will accept something less than a riddiclously high offer that the Padres won't...and shouldn't... offer.
     
  12. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    Peavy/Zito/Chris Young/Greg Maddux >>>> Peavy/David Wells/Chris Young/Woody Williams

    edit: I also saw what the Cardinals did to the Mets and Tigers.
     
  13. rexy2006

    rexy2006 Well-Known Member

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    Zito has Boras as an agent.:tdown: Padres dont deal with Boras. So, you're last paragraph is entirely true.
     
  14. tboltzcali

    tboltzcali Well-Known Member

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    This lineup will win us 70-80 games and maybe, maybe a wildcard, depends on how poorly the dodgers play. Heres the link for that japanese 3b we May be trying to sign..

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2657727

    no matter how good our pitching will be, we still dont have any bats in our lineup besides Agonzo. We need some sticks in this lineup, strickly the reason why we lost to the cards in the playoffs.
     
  15. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    They won 88 games with a pitching staff that wasn't half as good as the one they'd have if they brought in Zito and Maddux.

    You seem like the type that needs to see offense or you're not satisfied.

    Do you not realize how good a team can be with dominant pitching?

    There's more than one way to win a baseball game and I'd put money on 90 wins and a 3rd straight NL West title if the Padres had that pitching staff.

    But, for the record, 80 wins will NEVER get you the wildcard.
     
  16. tboltzcali

    tboltzcali Well-Known Member

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    Yeah pitching keeps you in the ballgame. Its not like football where defense can win you ballgames. Baseball is very different my friend. The reason why we won the west is cuz its a very weak division. Look at that game v.s the dodgers, 4 straight homers when they were down, a 5th to win it. We dont have that pop. We arent a dangerous hitting team. Look at the past World Series winners. Name one team that had good pitching and gave the type of run support we gave.. Yankees, Boston, Cardinals all have a balanced team. They have clutch hitters, we dont. If you look at the DS stats, we hit a sorry .225, 29 for 129, 0 hr's, and 6 rbi's. Thats not gunna win alot of division series. On a brighter note, our pitching stats were not as solid as they should be but they werent the worst. The thing is, when they needed that big hit in the DS, we didnt get it. Now you look at our lineup, Giles actually had a solid year, as did Cameron, Piazza might not be back, but then again, he only gave us pretty much 6 innings and couldnt throw anyone out. Our best hitter was Adrian who finished with a .304 avg and 24 hr's while Cameron led our club with 83 rbi's ranked 32 in the national league respectfully. The mets had 3 players over 100 rbi's but their pitching sucked cuz Martinez and Hernandez didnt pitch or they would of advanced. I hope all this makes sense. The point is, we have/had the pitching, we just need the hitters to keep us in the game. A pitcher can dominate a game but he can easily give up one run on one pitch, on the other hand, if you dont have that player to turn a game around with one swing, and not always a hr, then you will not win many games when they count.

    http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/NASA...19&groupByTeam=true&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

    http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/NASA...19&groupByTeam=true&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1
     
  17. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be so sure about that. Defense won a lot of games for the Padres last year.

    The best hitters in the league are considered great when they fail to get a base hit 7 times out of 10....I'll take great pitching over great offense any day of the week.

    Can we please put an end to this nonsensical party line? That "weak division" produced the NL's wildcard. That "weak division" had every team in it over .500 for most of the season. That "weak division" had TWO teams end the season with a better record than the eventual World Series champions.

    And, yes I realize they both lost in the playoffs....but the playoffs are funny like that in that the "season" essentially starts over for 8 teams.

    And neither do the Dodgers, they were last in the league in HRs going into that game IIRC.

    That game was a freak of nature.

    Oh, did you notice how the Padres bounced back from that game and won something like 8 of 9 games or something like that? Pretty impressive if you ask me.

    They'd be dangerous enough if they had that killer pitching rotation.

    More Padres trivia: Name me the last time the Padres had three players hit 20 or more HRs in a season...

    The Yankees, when they were actually winning the WS instead of just making the playoffs every year, had VERY good pitching...and THAT was what was winning for them.

    Quick. Name me the power hitting slugger on their late 90s teams. Don't say Jeter, he was reliable for power but he's no A-Rod. He's no Big Papi. He's no Albert Puljos. He's just a guy who gets a hit when they need it. But their pitching is what won them those series.

    A few years later they start reeling in A-Rod, Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, Hideki Matsui....how many WS have they won since?

    Oh, and i'm glad you mentioned the Cardinals. They won the WS this year despite Puljos hitting something crazy in the .200 average.

    The Cardinals won this year off their PITCHING.

    I don't feel like looking up the stats right now (I will if this debate persists) But Jeff Weaver had a few awesome games, Chris Carpenter was lights out, Jeff Suppan is now going to get a fat deal in the offsesaon because of how great he pitched, and even that rookie Anthony Reyes was very reliable.

    I don't know what Cardinals team you were watching in the playoffs, but their offense really didn't show up in the playoffs. They won the WS with their dominant pitching.

    Look at last year's White Sox. How did they get into the WS? That's right 4 straight shut outs by a dominant pitching staff

    pitching wins baseball games.

    Adrian Gonzalez was pretty damn clutch this year.
    Josh Bard was pretty damn clutch this year
    Mike Cameron was pretty damn clutch this year
    Mike Piazza was pretty damn clutch this year.

    You don't need to be a HR hitting monster in order to be "clutch"
    I go back to my example of Derek Jeter and the late-90s Yankees.

    But, you're right. They did go to sleep in the DS. We're both in agreement that if they play like that in the playoffs they're not going to win. edit: Then again, maybe not neccesarily...

    The Cardinals pitching stats were better. That's the funny thing about stats, though. As much as I love them anyone can use the same stats to make two different arguments.

    You're basically saying here, in simple terms, "Well, the Padres offense sucked in the DS, in the meantime the pitching was decent. The end result was the Padres lost, so therefore offense must be more important because that's what was lacking"

    I can use the same stats and say "Well, the Cardinals pitching was downright dominant in the DS. In the meantime the offense was ok, but not that great. The end result is that the Cardinals won, so therefore pitching must be more important because that's what won it for them"

    We can keep going in circles and debate what's more important...but, naturally, in the end you need a bit of both.

    The offense is not as poor as you want to make it out to be and what they have right now (with the minor additions that they'd make if they spent all the money on Zito/Maddux) would be good enough to give them that while the dominating pitching staff shuts everybody down.

    You want to judge the Padres' offense off of 4 games in the playoffs. I prefer to judge them off the 166 games they played all season long. And, for the most part, while not monsterous, they were reliable and got the team to the playoffs.

    Padres catching was pretty damn good offensively. Josh Bard spell's Piazza and did pretty damn good himself.

    And, again, that's nothing spectacular but it's good enough to win 88 games with a pitching staff not half as good as the Peavy/Zito/Young/Maddux/Hensley staff would be.

    I mean, good Lord, anytime Greg Maddux is your 4th starter you're in good shape.

    And now you see what lack of pitching can do to a team. They had all the offense in the world....a lot of good that did them when they had no pitchers.

    Obviously offense needs to exist. They went to sleep in the playoffs and...yeah, that was ******. But that kind of 4 game performance isn't a guarantee to happen should the scenario repeat itself next season. (Don't bother bringing up 2005....COMPLETELY different squad when compared to 2006. 2007 could wind up being a similar make up to 2006..especially if they spent the money on those two pitchers...which i'm not saying they will.)

    Anyways,

    with all of that said, I want a big bat brought in just as much as you do. I kinda went off on a tangent because I was perplexed by your insinuation that that pitching staff would only beget 70-80 wins...which I find to be a bit astonishing, but whatever, I really doubt we see that rotation anyways. (Boras will demand way too much for Zito.)

    All I can really say is we should wait and see what they do over the entire course of the offseason. And then, when the end product is put together we can make some real assesments of how the 2007 team will fare.
     
  18. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/NASA...20&groupByTeam=true&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

    St Louis Cardinals: .248 team batting average in the NLCS. :icon_eek:

    http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/NASA...21&groupByTeam=true&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

    St Louis Cardinals: .228 team batting average in the World Series. :icon_eek:

    http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/NASA...20&groupByTeam=true&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

    St Louis Cardinals: 3.84 team ERA in the NLCS

    http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/NASA...21&groupByTeam=true&Submit=Submit&timeFrame=1

    St Louis Cardinals: 2.05 team ERA in the World Series. (See what dominant pitching can do for a team hitting .228?)
     
  19. tboltzcali

    tboltzcali Well-Known Member

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    My point is, they came up clutch when they needed it most. We didnt. Forget pitching cuz our pitchers werent doing a bad job. We needed the clutch hits. Thats why KT is pursuing a power hitting 3b. Thats why they traded Barfield for Kouz cuz he is a power hitting 3b. Glad to see me and KT on the same page. We need some power in this lineup to fear opposing pitchers.
     
  20. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    That's weird. This entire debate started when you critisized the Barfield trade and questioned the Padres management's desire to build a winnning team because of it.
     
  21. tboltzcali

    tboltzcali Well-Known Member

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    Quote me bud...

    Kouz is supposedly a power hitter. Doesnt mean he will crack the starting lineup next year. As far as questioning, I still am cuz we dont have any power in this lineup as we speak. But hey, lets freeze this thread until March, Im too excited about the chargers right now, no time to worry about the pads. Truce until March!!!!
     
  22. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    word
     

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