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LBC and Duffman's "Watch List"

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by The LBC, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    I dont think that a TE-> LT convert is the type of guy that fits his scheme. He likes heavier, longer OT's. He likes guys to be 6'5" and 320+ from all the OT's i've seen him play with. Cam Fleming is a guy who could be very good as a developmental OT if he comes out and goes low enough. I actually spotlighted Becton as a guy that Joe D might like to develop last year. He likes Bigger guys with quick feet. You look at guys like Billy Turner, Justin Britt, possibly Donald Hawkins (love this guy, watch some of him) who could be targets for Joe D projects in the late rounds/UDFA's. Honestly, if he drops far enough, i think Joe D might get TT to get him Seantrel Henderson just on the fact that he could develop him into something great if he wants to work for it. I think Zach Martin is the absolute prototype for a Joe D interior OL. Quicker former OT who's very smart and aware and is a very good technician.
     
  2. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    Just because i've been talking about him for a while. Terrance Mitchell officially declared for the NFL draft today. IMO, he's a better true CB than Ifo, though Ifo's the more physically impressive of the two. Mitchell probably wont run overly fast, probably a 4.5 guy, though with very good short area quickness, but his awareness and instincts at CB are incredible, and he is very fluid reading and reacting to routs. He's got good length though i dont think he's the 6' he's listed at, probably closer to 5'10 or 5'11". I could see him going in the 2nd or 3rd round when its all said and done.
     
  3. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Evidently he wasn't terribly happy with the grade he got (said, "I've always been the underdog") and came out anyway. Now that could speak to his high opinion of himself or it could mean he got a Day 3 grade. I certainly wouldn't complain with bringing him in, just would hope to capitalize on his "lesser" perceived value as much as possible.
     
  4. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Notes on Beasley tonight:

    - Looks like he's in he 6'2-6'3 range respectively. (I know there has been some talk about this) Even if he measures shorter the point is he doesn't look too small or too lanky.

    - Showed effective plethora of pass rush moves including rips, double moves, and even spins to flush Miller many times. Also shows good hand placement and fights hard to shed blocks.

    - Decent run stopper but lost contain a few times. Definitely better standing up.

    - Dropped into coverage a few times, clearly athletic enough but not very comfortable in space.

    Ultimately I think he helped himself a lot even if his name wasn't called often. Get him in the weight room and up to about 250 and I think he'll have an immediate impact as a pass rusher.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  5. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    Looked great tonight, first step is amazing. Great burst as well.

    Look at FSU and UVA game, he's basically a no show. Think he's a 1st rounder, needs to add weight like you said, I wouldn't mind him playing at 240's even, don't want him to lose that burst, but would love for Freeney to groom him.
     
  6. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    I assume its somewhere in between those two. While he has a high view of himself, i doubt he got a great grade either (probably 3rd/4th round at the highest). It'll be interesting how he does at the combine. I dont think he's gonna jump his stock too much, but he'll dominate the agility drills.
     
  7. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    One video of him. Misses when pulling a couple times, but hits hard others. Gets bullrushed effectively once but still maintains protection. Other than a few plays (none of which resulted in lost yardage) a solid outing.
     
  8. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    Hey LBC, i was wondering what you though about Timmy Jernigan as a potential 1 gapping NT? He's listed just under 300, but i would bet he goes around 6'1" 300-310, and is very good in the run game. He isn't overly quick off the ball like you want for a 3T, but he's nearly dominant run defender who can hold ground against and split double teams well. Not the prototypical NT, but i think he could play there in a 1 gapping role.
     
  9. Jesse Kemp

    Jesse Kemp BoltTalker

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    Aha! And where did you get that idea might I ask?
     
  10. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    Just watching him honestly. Knowing we need a NT, i was looking at some alternative options and knew he was incredibly good vs the run. Always viewed him as more of a penetrator, rather than a NT, but watching him more in depth once he declared, he looked very solid playing vs Double teams and holding ground. Was good at engaging and disengaging to make plays when he looked to be blocked. Definitely not the prototype, as i said before, but could be interesting in a less traditional role in the late 1st round.

    By the way you said that i'm guessing you made a similar statement somewhere?
     
  11. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    Jesse and I discussed using Will Sutton as a NT as well..
     
  12. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    Cant see Sutton as one, but I think Jernigan possibly could. Sutton tried putting on weight to impress scouts and you can see he lost a lot of his burst and ability to beat double teams before they formed tightly, which was his whole game. Jernigan does VERY well splitting double teams, but he does it differently, he battles them and splits them with more strength, form and technique than quickness. He engages, turns to the double and gets low and finds/turns his guy to create a gap to split it.
     
  13. Jesse Kemp

    Jesse Kemp BoltTalker

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    Yes, but I'm just messing with you. I don't even recall seeing you around the CMB since I said something about it. It's a good call.
     
  14. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    Yeah i kinda stopped goin to the CMB too much. It just got kinda old, plus school started for me this past week and i've been real busy
     
  15. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Careful, a couple of the posters around here think that 1 gap vs 2 gap is made up ESPN stuff :roflmao:
     
  16. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Timmy Jernigan dominated inside against Auburn. The only running room they had was to the outside or off tackle. I didnt look at the final numbers but he had to have double digit tackles or very close to it.
     
  17. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    Yup, had 9 tackles with .5 TFL's, but Auburn literally abandoned they're entire game plan and decided to pass the ball most of the first half. He still dominated the inside and obliterated their C (who's apparently quite racist and is the reason Ruben Foster decomitted after getting the tattoo) Reese Dismukes, who's an NFL prospect in his own right next year.
     
  18. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I'm also pretty sure a few posters here think it's a measurement of the size of a community
    (i.e. 1 Gap = small town, 2 Gap = medium-sized city, etc.)
     
  19. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    That's better than some alternative definitions...
     
  20. Jesse Kemp

    Jesse Kemp BoltTalker

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    Is this for real? Are there seriously people that think the terms "1 gap" and "2 gap" are made up jargon?
     
  21. Boltjolt

    Boltjolt Well-Known Member

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    Not so suprising.
     
  22. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    I've been thinking of some out of the box NT options. I think he could do it, eventually - just may take a year or more to grow into the position. I also have potential concerns about his arm length (that'll be key, even against centers at the pro level). Been wondering the same thing about Hageman too though, as he's so much still a raw lump of clay (not unlike Dontari Poe) I'm not sure he has a defined position in the league yet.
     
  23. Boltjolt

    Boltjolt Well-Known Member

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    Hageman is too tall for a NT. We need a lot of things. Could use another DE too. Reyes and Luiget didnt play well today. Those guys arent good 5 techs . Need to play more 1 or 3 gap with them imo.
     
  24. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    They were plenty good 5-Tech's when they had an NT playing between them that actually did his job and ate blocks. Cam Thomas doesn't do that - he just gets pushed backwards. As to the bit about being too tall to be an NT - with all due respect I honestly don't think you know what the heck you're talking about. Ted Washington (who is practically the prototype for the 3-4 NT) was 6'5" (an inch shorter than Hageman). Haloti Ngata is a shade over 6'4". J-Wall was 6'3". For a period, Shaun Rogers was very effective at a 1-gapping NT at 6'4". What's important is whether the player can bend at the knees, get low, and achieve proper leverage. If the player plays upright all the time then yes, greater height is going to be a disadvantage. But saying a guy is "too tall to be an NT" is a poor statement to make when the things that height affects the most are entirely coachable.
     
  25. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    Huh? Reyes is literally what you look for in a 5T. He's perfect for it. Ideally IMO we go with a 4-3 Under (already there pretty much, same thing as a 1 gap 3-4, with some minor shading differences with the LB's). That gives us a 5T in Reyes, a 3T in Liuget, and a 1T for whoever we pick up at NT. We have our Weakside LB in Butler, Mike in Te'o and either Strongside LB or Rush End/Predator/Leo/whatever in Ingram. We really needed Lissemore today, we have no great run defending DT at all.

    We gotta get better rushing the passer though. Whether that means signing a guy like Orakpo, hell even Suggs if the Ravens cut him (neither of which are very reasonable options). It probably means signing a guy like Jason Worldis (since i feel as though the steelers want to give Jones the role) if we want to do it in free agency.

    At NT, there's some decent options like Paul Soliai who would be my first choice, but there's also Linval Joseph, and Pat Sims who are decent options. But as as LBC said, there's some outside the box options who are less prototypical.

    With CB, we could get a top end talent, but without a pass rush, i dont think thats going to mean much, so i'd wait to get one later, because of how extremely deep this CB class is, i'd even be willing to get 2 or 3 later.
     
  26. Boltjolt

    Boltjolt Well-Known Member

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    Washington is the exception. There is always an exception. Washington was also 365-375 lbs.
    Ngata was playing DE for years when they had Kelley Greg on their team and Greg is 6'0".
    6'3' is ok but the best NTs in the game are all in the 6" to 6'3" range with more being 6'1", 6'2'. 6'6" is tall and hard and get leverage and stay low to penetrate. Not saying they cant play but ideally you would like the shorter NT.

    I think i know what im talking about but thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
  27. Boltjolt

    Boltjolt Well-Known Member

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    Reyes has not played as well this season and if that is tied to Cam, then ok. I can see that but he seems better when we use more 1 and 3 gap. He and Luiget today were not that good. Cam i know isnt the answer at NT and is a part of that.
    Joseph has never played NT so who knows if he is a good fit. There arent that many options out there. Soliai is 30 but id give him a two year deal.
     
  28. Jesse Kemp

    Jesse Kemp BoltTalker

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    I'd agree with Boltjolt on this one. Ted Washington was great, but he's the exception to the rule as the only effective, starting 3-4 NT that I know of that was over 6'4". It is about leverage and pad level, but it doesn't take much more than common sense to see why that would become more challenging the taller you are. So when you're talking about a kid who is 6'6" (taller even than the outlier), I think it's perfectly fair to say that he's too tall.
     
  29. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Damon Harrison (arguably the best 3-4 NT this entire sason) - 6'4"
    Dontari Poe - 6'3 1/2"
    Jamal Williams - 6'3"
    Shaun Rogers (already mentioned) - 6'4"
    Kris Jenkins (2008 All-Pro as NT for the Jets) - 6'4"
    Paul Soliai (the same guy you mentioned as being one of the few adequate replacements on the market) - 6'4"
    Randy Starks (who anchored the Dallas line for Wade first few years there) - 6'3"
    Dan Wilkinson (didn't see a ton of time in a 3-4, but was certainly lined up as a 0-tech and did a ton of 2-gapping NT work) - 6'4"
    Fred Smerlas (who Bruce Smith owed a lot of his early success to because he was drawing double-teams on most plays) - 6'3"
    Sam Adams - 6'3"
    Joe Klecko - 6'3"
    Randy White - 6'4"

    The short, squatty Kelly Gregg/Casey Hampton type of NT is the better fit for a straight 2-gapping 3-4 line, but what's getting ignored that is that the entire line is 2-gapping (i.e. all 3 linemen are there to keep the linebackers clean and eat blocks for them). That doesn't appear to be the current scheme we implement, nor was it ever the case under Wade or Rivera - where we were almost entirely 1-gapping.

    The fact remains, if the player is a natural knee-bender and doesn't fire straight up out of his stance, his height isn't an issue. Moreover, Hageman is 6'5" and some loose change (around 3-4/10"), with athleticism out the wazoo. The NT's of yesteryear have shown us that if you're strong enough, play with a heavy enough anchor, a high enough motor, and use proper leverage and hand-technique you can be 253 pound Reggie Kinlaw or 257 pound Randy White and guys aren't going to be able to move you without double-teaming you and even then it's a fight.
     
  30. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Both Reyes and Liuget have 5+ sacks on the season while playing with a subpar NT, and their performance (the second Denver game in particular) substantially increased when a guy who at least posed a threat the opposing line (Lissemore) and didn't get driven back with off the snap was playing in place of Thomas. Today, yes, they weren't that good. But if we're cutting guys purely off of poor performance today then we might as well stick a fork in Weddle.

    Now yes, both Corey and Kendall could have and should have been better against the run. There is an explanation (the fact that teams figured out they could effectively single-team Cam and double up on Reyes and Liuget without fear of edge-rushers like English, Williams, and Keiser getting into the backfield before the back was into the hole, for example), but ideally, yes, they should still be able to fight through double-teams some of the time.

    There are a number of options out there, provided we're willing to bring in a true veteran - defensive tackles (particularly ones without lengthy injury histories) have great longevity though (a lot of them play until their mid to late 30's) because of the limit on snaps they see on a lot of teams being primarily used as run defenders and rotated out on passing downs. Ryan Pickett has experience playing in both a 1-gapping and 2-gapping NG spot (he played both for Green Bay at different points in their recent seasons). Soliai was mentioned. Randy Starks started at 1-gap NT for Wade's Cowboys before Jay Ratliff came along, and saw some time at NT for the Phins as well. Franklin only signed a 1-year deal with the Colts and they've been developing Josh Chapman to transition into that starters spot. Depending on what the Pats do with Tommy Kelly and Vince Wilfork (he's got an $11.5m cap hit and is coming off Achilles surgery, they'll likely at minimum try to restructure), Isaac Sopoaga is a definite cap-casualty possibility. Brodrick Bunkley is undersized but put in some solid shifts for New Orleans at the nose this year and could be a cap casualty as the Saints are about to enter absolute Cap Hell this offseason, as they'll enter well over the cap with only 20-some players on the 2014 roster to account for it.
     

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