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Lets Talk KA13

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Concudan, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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  2. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    Started with a C and ended with an R? Rhymes with TaintBrusher?
     
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  3. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    BTW Conc, are you channelling the spirit of Cecil the Lion?! :eek:
     
  4. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    you should see my faceborg image. Will post it in N&N tonight.
     
  5. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    #ChargersFans :confused:
     
  6. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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  7. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I never said that Allen was not good.

    I have said that I think he is overrated by some Chargers fans. He did have a down year last year and does lack the speed to be a consistent deep threat for us. There are some limitations to his game that some other receivers do not have.

    I would be the first to admit that I prefer more complete WRs. Because of these limitations, I have always preferred Allen as a high end #2 or slot WR.

    That said, Allen is having a very good year this year and I give him credit for that. In fact, by posting that Allen is 3rd in receiving yards, y'all are overlooking that he is #1 in receptions.

    I do think some of his success both this year and in 2013 has come from there being an absence of another good WR (and/or TE like Gates this year) to go along with him.

    Last year, Floyd played well, arguably even better than Allen did. This year Floyd does not seem to be playing as well. Johnson has been injured and the other receivers aren't really all good that at this point. So, at WR, it is pretty much Allen or bust.

    The other part, of course, is that Allen has Rivers throwing to him. That should help most WRs.

    Giving credit where credit is due, if Allen keeps playing at his present rate, there is no reason to think that he won't be named to the Pro Bowl (along with Rivers).
     
  8. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    I'm convinced you're Al Davis resurrected and your purpose in life is to now troll Chargers fans on their forums.

    ALLEN WAS NEVER A DEEP THREAT AND NEVER WILL BE.
     
  9. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Man...
    I would like to see ChainTroller break down Jerry Rice and explain how he wasn't good because he was slow...
     
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  10. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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  11. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Why are you repeating what I said as if I were saying something else?

    I said that I do not prefer players that lack the capacity to be a deep threat on a regular basis. Allen has caught a couple of deep balls this year, but, as I stated, he is not a deep threat on a consistent basis.

    Without a consistent deep threat, I think teams can take advantage of an offense by compacting the field vertically, leaving less space in which the offense can get things accomplished.

    To me, a skilled technician that has the ability to get separation in the short game is a good player to have a s a #2 or slot WR.

    Allen has put up some great numbers with a declining Floyd and largely in the absence of Gates (due to suspension) and Johnson (due to injury). In these circumstances, it is obvious that Allen would be the clear go to player in the passing game.

    To his credit, Allen has done very well this year overall.

    That said, I still do not prefer him as a #1 WR for the reasons stated above. I do not think that the offense will function well in the long run with Allen as the clear #1 WR.

    Because he lacks some physical abilities, some teams have been able to pretty much shut him down like Cincinnati earlier this year and several teams last year. While all receivers have off games, Allen's are a bit too frequent over the past year and change. And that makes me uncomfortable with him as our #1 over the long run.
     
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  12. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Jerry Rice proved to be a consistent deep threat and Rice was a tick faster than Allen and did everything else but pure running as good or better than just about every receiver ever to play the game. And Jerry Rice is obviously an exception to just about every general WR rule of thumb that there ever was.

    Allen is slow for a WR. It doesn't mean that he can't have success. Biletnikoff did for years and I think Allen will have success.

    That said, if Allen is your #1, then you probably don't have a strong #1 over the long haul.

    It is okay for my #2 WR to be good. I want my #1 WR to be great with explosive take it to the house potential on every play.

    Allen is having a nice run in a situation in which he has been the featured guy by default. That is admirable, but I simply do not see Allen as a great player over the long haul. I see him as a good player over the long haul. That's an honest assessment, not an insult.
     
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  13. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    Crusher, don't blow your whole load on Allen and Te'o today. Save some salvo for Weddle. Shirley, you must know what's coming ;)
     
  14. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    chaincrusher: "Average! Average! Everyone is average or ******! Telesco blows! THE END IS NIGH!":eek:
     
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  15. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    Only if the Bolts could find a burner with Allen type hands or Gate's they'd be in business. Jones can't even get out of his own way let alone avoid a tackle.
     
  16. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    This is just wrong. I specifically rated Allen as above average when I broke down our starters in those terms. I think he is above average, but I do not think that he is elite even though his stats through 6 weeks are admittedly at an elite level.

    I also said Verrett and Gates are above average. I rated Rivers as elite. What other starter do you believe has demonstrated above average play for us this year?

    Weddle has been above average to elite for several seasons, but I would only rate his play as average this year so far and I was one of the ones complaining about us not re-signing him.

    Similarly, I might have considered Liuget, Ingram and Floyd as above average going into this season, but the play of each of these players has not been as strong this year as I expected it to be.

    I suppose that after the last game with Attaochu now having 4.0 sacks (tied for 11th), he might warrant consideration as being above average. While I think that is a fair argument, he just got half of his sacks in one game and both were coverage sacks. I want to see more from him before concluding that he is above average (and he was my favorite player in the entire 2014 draft, so if I have a bias, it would be one in his favor).

    But does anyone else among the starters even merit any sort of discussion at all about being above average based upon his play in 2015?
     
  17. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Yeah, Jones has been a disappointment for sure. He looks slower than he was when he was with BAL and I don't know that he was ever all that elusive of a runner. I always kind of viewed him as hitting a hole and then nobody being able to catch him.

    I like Allen's hands and think they are definitely above average (even for an NFL WR), but I think his best trait is his ability to get separation immediately with quick moves. His worst traits are that he is slow and is a bit of a knucklehead at times.

    I wish that we could get a speedy WR with at least solid hands and moves so that we can stretch defenses out a bit more.
     
  18. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    Not sure why all the hate for Chain outside of the normal (almost) everyone hating on him with his KA assessment. Now I would view Allen higher than above avg, but not quite Elite. Not that he cant be elite as we are seeing so far this year, but although I wouldnt label him as 'slow' he isnt fast enough that defenses need to fear him going over the top of coverage. Like I mentioned earlier in the year I see Allen as a High End #2 or a 1B if we had a 1A receiver. I think all this team needs is a deep threat on Offense that will open up everything more. It will help with less packed boxes vs our run game and open up more under routes because the safety wouldnt be able to squat more on those routes.

    I have no hate on KA because I always felt he was a probowl level talent, but to me he just lacks that next gear speed wise and athleticism to consistently win contested balls. He does excel at everything else in my opinion. And I would also say that he has higher than just above avg hands (as Chain puts it).

    What I think Chain is saying is he isnt Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, Demaryius Thomas, etc. elite level. He would probably be close to the tier below it which can be labeled as whatever you want to call that.
     
  19. Dublin Bolt

    Dublin Bolt BoltTalker

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    KA may not be as quick as he could or maybe should be but he can play. I'm delighted he is a Charger. Off the top of my head us oldies can all count plenty of WRs drafted higher than him by the Chargers who were muck. And he is so young so he is only going to get better.
     
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  20. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    Verrett is elite. No way around that one.
     
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  21. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Woodhead is well above average at what he does, albeit as a specialty player. Dunlap, Franklin, and Johnson I consider above average despite the injuries keeping them off the field.

    And as strange as it is to say, Joe Barksdale and Patrick Robinson both outplayed what we expected from them. I would argue Barks has been the 3rd best player on this offense behind only Rivers and Allen so far. It's hard to compare players of different positions, but I trust Robinson as much or more than I trust Weddle right now.

    I said it to you before I like this roster on paper. I think it's a 10-6 maybe 11-5 roster depending on health, and depending on if Gordon was able to hit the ground running (which I was always skeptical about). I find it hard to believe that guys like Flowers, Dunlap, and Weddle just turned to crap this year...especially Weddle being in a contract year.

    Per pound we have one of the biggest O-lines in the league, an O-line that you look at and say "They should be able to run the ball if nothing else." And yet we can't run worth a damn.

    Put simply because I have to leave right now, I think our issues are coaching 1st, and injury 2nd, and talent a distant 3rd. I haven't even gotten to some potentially special young players like Ladarius Green (who is looking good), and Denzel Perryman and Ryan Carrethers who have impressed in their extremely limited snaps.
     
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  22. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    One person that finally gets it! Bravo Mati, Bravo!

    Be ready for a debate you'll never win though, he seems to think the opposite - "talent (because Tom Telesco ******* sucks) is 1, injury is 2 and coaching is 3" - just be ready for that.
     
  23. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I don't know if he's slower but he sure as hell can't function under fire and that is a problem no matter how "fast" one is, still have to be able to use all the components of ones game is he is going to be a contributor.
     
  24. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    He is headed that way, but I do not think he is there yet. He has had durability issues and has not even played a full season's worth of games in the NFL. Also, he has dropped a few picks this year. So, my take is above average for now, but if I were forbidden from using that category for Verrett, then I would definitely choose elite over average.
     
  25. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    I mean I guess. Shutting down Calvin Johnson, Golden Tate, AJ Green, Antonio Brown and Randall Cobb isn't a big deal. He'll shut down a very good Amari Cooper this weekend too.
     
  26. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Matilack, I appreciate that you broke down specific players. And I would be the first to acknowledge that ratings such as elite, above average, average, et cetera are very subjective labels.

    I agree that Woodhead is above average in the limited role of 3rd down back. He is not Sproles in his prime for us, but he is good in that role. I think he is average at best as a primary ball carrier.

    I don't think I rated Johnson because he is a #3 WR. But I would consider him average. He has been above average in his career, but there is nothing special about him at this point in his career. I could probably name at least 40-50 active WRs, maybe more, that I think are better than Johnson.

    I have Franklin as below average. He has played horribly for us. He was much better for Denver. He would be our worst starter on the OL, but Watt's horribleness is saving him there. I thought the OL without Watt clearly played better versus GB than the OL typically does with Watt.

    I would rate Barksdale as average. The OL simply has not been good at all either in run blocking or pass blocking. Nobody gets an above average grade because nobody stands out as being good although a couple stand out as being really, really bad. I think Barksdale is right there with Fluker and Dunlap in the average category.

    Again, I don't think it makes sense to say that 40 or even 60 percent of the OL is above average and yet the OL sucks in both pass blocking and run blocking. To me, the overall performance fits better with the players graded as 3 average players, 1 below average player and 1 putrid player.

    Robinson has arguably been a just a tick above average. Barksdale has not been a disappointment and Robinson has actually a nice surprise.

    I agree that Perryman, Carrethers and Green flash potential. But Green is far enough along in his career that I could only consider him as an average TE at this point. I certainly could not go higher than average for Perryman or Carrethers either as neither player has emerged, which is no crime because both are still young and developing. In fact, I think we are pushing to get an average grade for Perryman and Carrethers as of now, but that could well change over time as they progress.
     
  27. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    Chain, I think your problem or the problem ppl have with your assessments of "above average" generally sounds like slightly more than on par. Hell avg doesnt even sound like a 'good' player. I think a scale needs to be used to better identify your ratings. I would put Verrett at elite or slightly below elite since he has just started showing what he can do on the field consistly. On this imaginary scale, he would be rated higher than Woodhead who is also rated "above avg" but lower than the elite in PR. At this moment, not sure where I put KA13. I'm guessing he would be above Woodhead and in the Verrett grouping.
     
  28. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    Kenan Allen is having the best year of his career and some how that isn't impressive? Give respect where it's due and stop hating.
     
  29. Ride The Lightning

    Ride The Lightning Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.

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    LOL taking the bait

    Don't feed the trolls.
     
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  30. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    That could be so.

    When I say above average, I literally mean the range of "good". The letter on the grade would be a B, but it could be on the higher end of the range. I think Verrett and Allen are players that are B+ type players. I am hesitant only 6 games in to raise their grades higher at the moment because 1) Verrett has not even played a whole season and has been injury prone and 2) Allen can string some great games together, but then gets shut down for a game or even multiple games at a time and he has been building stats almost by default with no Gates, an injured Jonson, an ineffective Floyd and no running game.

    I agree that both Verrett and Allen should be rated higher than Woodhead. Woodhead is a part time player that excels at some things, but not others. He is on the borderline between average and above average. I would put Verrett and Allen closer to the opposite side of the B range--the part that is closer to elite.
     

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