1. Welcome to San Diego Chargers NFL Football Podcast and Forum!
    Bolt Talk is one of the largest online communities for the San Diego Chargers.
    We host a regular Chargers podcast during the season.

    You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Create an Account or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!

McCoy's Mistakes

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Burlington Bolt Brother, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Ratings:
    +162
    A growing list

    In every game, players make mistakes
    In every game, coaches make calls that can be argued are bad
    What is rare however, is a coaching mistake that has nothing to do with split second athletic or mental errors. The results of a player not taking a sack or losing a fumble are often more noticeably devastating than throwing an illegal challenge flag but it's expected that in every game, things like the former will happen while the latter will not. Likewise, not putting your power run personnel in a 1 yard goal-line situation is most likely more devastating than allowing the clock to run instead of forcing a punt but the former can be argued (however poorly) and the latter can not. So in the interest of eliminating debate from the defense attorneys on what was bad, I haven't included questionable play calling (lots of it!) or strategy-outside of the strategy conflicting itself in one case. I also removed from the list the illogical excuses given for the goal line personnel fiasco as well as the play for punt fiasco--Leo made a valid point that things said to the media may not be reflective of one's thought process (yes, I'd love to argue this)

    If I have any of these wrong, feel free to correct them and if I have missed any, please add to the list.

    All in different games...
    1)Inactive list blunder. Failed to turn in revised list and lost a roster spot
    2)Threw an illegal challenge flag. Lost a time-out
    3)Allowed the clock to run out. Instead of calling a TO and going for a punt block or return

    In one game...
    4)Learned wrong lesson from #3. Called a TO to force punt and ran return formation. THEN ran out clock
    5)Took a penalty. On a loss of yards play with minimal net yardage from a half the distance spot.

    It is rare to see things like this once. Again, these are not the same things as Coach "__" running plays you don't like and certainly not the same thing as a player messing up
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Riff Raff

    Riff Raff BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    490
    Ratings:
    +226
    A fair list and yes - McCoy's body of work is questionable so far, even without discussing actual play calls. Will he learn from these mistakes? Hard to say just yet, although it isn't looking good. But he isn't going anywhere any time soon so I'm not going to spend any energy calling for his head - the ownership is deaf to that sort of input. And I'm not going back to re-hash the Norv years - I certainly was never a member of the Norv-haters club, but I'm not wasting energy on comparing these 2 either. I wish both men well in their current & future endeavors.

    Is this really the group that you want to try to hold a logical discussion with? I don't see any group that usually begins a discussion in an already agitated, emotional state one that is likely to use or learn much logic. Maybe you just like a challenge?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    18,580
    Ratings:
    +2,641
    He's learning on the job and seems to forget he's not coaching a powerhouse like Denver. I think he can learn from his mistakes but what concerns me is just how conservative he is and yeah that he does make mistakes at least twice before he learns from them. No point in calling for his head and too early to determine him a failure.
     
  4. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    15,135
    Ratings:
    +2,720
    None of these are as bad as you're determined to make them seem, most are rookie mistakes which I doubt he'll ever make again. Same as a WR learns to run routes or a LB learns to stay home on play action, McCoy is developing the same as most coaches do, even Bellichick. And #4, was not even really a bad decision with so little time left and having just come off a turnover on the previous drive, it was just a safe one.

    Personally I'd rather have all these rookie mistakes than an idiot who serves Philip Rivers up on a platter by refusing to alter or adapt his scheme in the slightest to fit the players he has. That kind of constant self destructive inflexibility is worse than losing a player because you didn't know you had to resubmit a roster, it's season long.

    If McCoy made one mistake that killed me it was at the end if the skins game when he decided to get cute rather than just pound it in with RM. I don't know if he's the next great head coach, but let's keep some perspective as it's his first season, not his 16th.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    49,402
    Ratings:
    +4,223
    So what is the answer. No forget that... What is the question.... There isn't one.

    This is the same stuff that went on with Norv. Some people will always root for someone to fail so they can crow about how smart they are, and pontificate on their greatness.

    Every Head Coach makes mistakes. Anyone recall the flak Andy Reid got recently for not calling a time out when the talking heads of the fan base thought he should have? Anyone recall the penalty another head coach got for challenging a play that was not challengable in the second week of this season?

    What, do people actually think Norv will be back? He wont. Do they think that a grass roots campaign will form to run McCoy out of town in his first year? It wont.

    If the intent is to cast aspersions on the head coach, if that is what gets their rocks off so be it. If the intent is to educate everyone in the obvious... well thank you kindly Captain Obvious... If the intent is to explain why the team is not going to make the play offs... well I would question the health and mental cognizance of the person who thought this team, with this roster would. If the intent is to troll... well we see them trollin...

    So all in all... the obvious has been stated... A rookie head coach has made rookie head coaching mistakes... Well done.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Old Old x 1
  6. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,814
    Ratings:
    +3,481
    Wait........... is he :poop: or not???
     
  7. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Messages:
    13,870
    Ratings:
    +1,763
    This whole thing is a McCluster fawk right now. Why did Barron ever have to sell this team again?????
     
  8. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Messages:
    11,421
    Ratings:
    +1,976
    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
     
  9. ChargerMike

    ChargerMike BoltBruthaFromAnuthMutha

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    597
    Ratings:
    +314
    This season is all but over.....so I'm willing to give McCoy a pass for his first year...but we better at least make the play offs next year. :cautious:
     
  10. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Ratings:
    +162
  11. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Ratings:
    +162
    So ignoring all the angry flak and sticking to the only point worthy of responding too...are these really rookie mistakes and is Mike McCoy really a rookie? These things may seem complicated to some but there are people in the Bolt Talk forum who wouldn't make these mistakes. I have never seen these particular ones and I'm sure they are out there but can anyone point to that many from real rookie coaches? Guys who never coached in the league? I don't recall Riley doing these things.
     
  12. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Ratings:
    +162
    No, it was actually pretty dangerous because he risked a muff. If safe was his concern, you rush 11. What you don't do is #3 or risk a muff then sit on it
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Messages:
    13,870
    Ratings:
    +1,763
    What is McCoy going to do with all these puppy's come the off season????
     
  14. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,355
    Ratings:
    +606
    I'm a fan of the 'Bellichick was a rookie once, and he must have made plenty of rookie mistakes, therefore McCoy is on the same trajectory as Bellichick' logic. Fargin bombproof that sheet.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  15. Cheapseats

    Cheapseats Loud, proud Charger fan

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    999
    Ratings:
    +250
    The "rookie mistakes" are not surprising, but with this talent-thin roster there is little or no margin for error and the mistakes are more likely to hurt the team. They have been competitive in almost all of the games this season, so I am encouraged going forward. I'd like to see what he can do with a year under his belt and a more complete roster.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,386
    Ratings:
    +1,073
    Too long... needs more pretty pictures to keep my attention. (Yes, this coming from me! :roflmao:)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  17. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,386
    Ratings:
    +1,073
    With all due respect, and this is coming from someone with some of the more advanced football knowledge on this site (though I really hate tooting my own horn), I call BS on that. It's really, really freaking easy to say that when you're sitting at home, watching from the safety of your couch on your LCD versus standing on the sideline, managing all manner of things that need doing simultaneously. If it were that easy to do, more people would be doing it.

    Is McCoy a real rookie head coach? Well, let's see... the man has never once been a head coach previously. He went from college player to NFL player to CFL player to NFL offensive assistant in Carolina under John Fox, and along his path to his first head coaching gig with us, he never served in a higher capacity than offensive coordinator. So yes, Mike McCoy is a rookie head coach. I think years of Norv being both head coach and (more than just) de facto Offensive Coordinator have caused some people (or at least you) to forget that these decisions - whether to go for it or not, whether to challenge or not - are made by the head coach, not the coordinator; thus in Mike McCoy's career that was always John Fox. Even when McCoy was calling plays, Fox always held veto power being the HC when it came to not liking a decision to pass versus run in a scenario, what the game plan was, etc.

    This is the first time Mike McCoy hasn't had John Fox looking over his shoulder, so yes... growing pains were going to happen, should have been expected to happen, and have happened. You think it was sheer coincidence that McCoy targeted a former HC as his offensive coordinator and chief assistant? Hell no. All the same, McCoy is his own man - that much is obvious from listening to him speak - so his philosophies or the ones he's learned and adapted from Fox are the ones he prefers to profess. Wanting to run him out on a rail after not even one full season is no different than arguing that a 1st round selected rookie is a bust if he's not staking a claim to a Top-10 at his position in the league spot after one season. In short, it's preposterous.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Ratings:
    +162
    Terrible
     
  19. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,311
    Ratings:
    +636
    Ignorant.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Ratings:
    +162
    ok...
    Well yeah, every member of the gaggle liking this silly post is proudly admitting that they too- along with you- would also likely make these mistakes but can you please forget my optimism and name some other "rookies" who have made them as well?

    I didn't say anything about head coach. the guy has been in the NFL directly under head coaches and whether or not that's harder than a college HC coming in, it still makes it sound apologetic to forgive him for **** that only you, Conc and Matilack would commit.
    You, like Conc, are arguing garbage not in this thread
    I didn't say anything about running him out of town, Projectorhead. "Preposterous"? Is Conc teaching classes in Bullshitsu in here? Good Lord! Labels are great if you can back them up but just applying them and getting the comfortably dumb to like it, only means you have company. Can we at least debate only what I'm saying? Again, what other "rookie" coaches have committed this many inarguable mistakes (and yes, I get you guys think they're acceptable)?[/QUOTE]
     
  21. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Ratings:
    +162
    And do you REALLY want to talk about pointing out the obvious in this place? How many posts would be left after all the, "we need to hold them here" comments are removed?
     
  22. Cheapseats

    Cheapseats Loud, proud Charger fan

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    999
    Ratings:
    +250
    You forgot all of the "cut / fire (insert name here)" comments.:laugh:
     
  23. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Ratings:
    +162
    What's funny on top of your humor is that I am not calling for anyone's head. Seems to be a lot of guilt projection in here. I can't believe that people are willing to not notice these mistakes and when they finally do, they brush them off as "rookie" mistakes. I think remembering history accurately helps build a better understanding of the present.
     
  24. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    Messages:
    11,421
    Ratings:
    +1,976
    And was it McCoys fault Gates was the reason for two turnovers. One of those turnovers gave Cincy 7 points.

    Sorry but Gates is getting old and were he was once a rock is fast becoming a liability.
     
  25. Burlington Bolt Brother

    Burlington Bolt Brother BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    876
    Ratings:
    +162
    Jesus
     
  26. Cheapseats

    Cheapseats Loud, proud Charger fan

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    999
    Ratings:
    +250
    The "rookie mistake" label (that I also used earlier in the thread) is giving coach McCoy the benefit of the doubt because he has no track record as a head coach. If we see the same head scratching decisions next season this crowd will be a lot less forgiving. This franchise needs a lot of work from top to bottom. I believe they have made positive moves with Telesco and McCoy. If I'm wrong down the road, just hand me a fork so I can eat some crow.
     
  27. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I love the smell of football in the morning.

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,821
    Ratings:
    +1,163
    A lot of people are already talking about "next season" and "next draft" when they should really be talking about "next week."
     
  28. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,386
    Ratings:
    +1,073
    [/quote]
    Let's get things straight. It makes it sound apologetic to you. You who appear to be writing very much from an agenda. You who have shown a propensity for being the pot calling the kettle black.

    If you don't think there's much of a difference between being a positional coach/coordinator in the NFL and being a head coach in the NFL, then I really don't know what to tell you other than that you're rather misguided. Also, you really ought to look up the definition of "apologist" then look at what I've posted before calling me one. Not one damn thing I posted was apologist. I said that any reasonable person with an understanding of what history (you know that thing you like to cite but don't appear to be very well-versed on) should have expected a first time head coach to make mistakes and that expecting the opposite was imprudent because it flew in the face of statistical probability.

    You want a list of first time head coaches (in any capacity) who made their fair share of tactical and decision-based mistakes in their first year's tenure?
    Josh McDaniels, Bill Belichick, Joe Gibbs, Pete Carroll (in his first head coaching stint with the Jets), Steve Spagnulo, Scott Linehan, Ron Rivera, Mike Singletary, Romeo Crennel, Dick Jauron... that's just off the top of my head. And several of those were in an era when there weren't additional responsibilities placed on the head coach such as the ability to challenge plays.

    At what point did we say out and out that McCoy''s miscues are wholesale acceptable. In the context of him being a first-time head coach, and for the first time having some of these responsibilities, believing that it's fairly irrational to expect him to get these decision right the first time, versus learning from the process of trial and error, does not equate to finding the mistakes acceptable. What I believe many on here have suggested is that if he proves to learn from his past mistakes and doesn't repeat them then from a long-term perspective those mistakes become acceptable as they were learning experiences. Some of those have shown to be the case, others haven't had the opportunity to show one way or another.

    As for your bit about labels, are you serious or just trolling? What part of saying that "Mike McCoy is a rookie (first-time) HEAD COACH" and then showing that he has not once, ever, in his entire coaching career been a head coach prior (I can literally recount his career from his collegiate playing days as the guy was the last quarterback to ever start for my college before the program folded, if you like), is arbitrarily throwing a label on him?

    Fact is, I have debated the premise of your original post. I, like others, simply don't agree with said premise. 5 in-game mistakes from a first-time head coach is not nearly as rare as you intimate that it is. It's not as rare from coaches who have been in their tenure 5 or 6 years. The premise that I, and others, are offering is that it is imprudent to pass judgment one way or another on McCoy being a good or bad coach off of such a limited sample size because, quite frankly, it isn't something that can be determined from a singular season one way or the other - coaches who have gone on to become quite good have made similar amounts of "rookie" mistakes in their first stints as head coaches and coaches that have gone on to continue to repeat those mistakes in the successive years of their coaching tenure have as well. Until we see what he does in that second and third season in the position, and whether these mistakes continue to linger, we simply won't know and shouldn't pass judgment. But until such a time, what exactly is wrong with giving the guy the benefit of the doubt?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  29. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,311
    Ratings:
    +636
    [/quote]
    What is the point of this thread then? To praise McCoy?

    Your intentions and delivery are all wrong. Your being perceived by some as someone who wants to run McCoy out of town 12 games into his 1st season. You think fans brush aside losses? You think fans have a short memory? They way we've lost this year (all 1 score games besides @OAK) and how close we've been in all our games, fans simply just don't forget. Especially when those games have came down to the last possession.

    I'm reserving judgement until the end of the season, but yes McCoy has made mistakes. Is that what you want to hear? Do you want everyone to pat you on the back and say you are/were right? I think everyone notices his mistakes, some people know they have to be patient with a 1st year head coach, and this team given the roster, talent, and injuries.

    I think it's quite remarkable that we are 5-7, mathematically still in it, and we've been in 11 of the 12 games (all 1 score games) this year given the roster, injuries, and coaching mistakes.

    There will be changes made in 2014, however, I'm 100 % sure that change will not include McCoy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    49,402
    Ratings:
    +4,223
    Very well said.

    I think the only mistake you are making is in the assumption that the person is in fact interested in debating. He isn't. He has an agenda, and is not looking for anything but to have everyone agree with his rants. When you meet him with facts and intelligence, he is lost and resorts to insults. This is what you will get.
    Good luck.
     

Share This Page