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Mike McCoy mishandling development of RB Melvin Gordon

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by ChargerRay, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. ChargerRay

    ChargerRay #FireMcCoy #FirePagano Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    http://espn.go.com/blog/san-diego-c...-mishandling-the-development-of-melvin-gordon

    SAN DIEGO – For the second time this season, San Diego Chargers coach Mike McCoy benched running back Melvin Gordon for his fumbling issues.

    Gordon fumbled twice against the Denver Broncos, losing a fumble in the third quarter when linebacker Von Miller stripped him. Gordon has fumbled six times this season, losing four of them.

    “You can’t put the ball on the ground,” McCoy said when asked why he benched Gordon in the second half. “You’re not going to play if you put the ball on the ground.”

    Certainly, Gordon has to do a better job of securing the ball in tight quarters. But essentially sending the rookie running back to sit in the corner for bad behavior is a microcosm for everything that is wrong with McCoy’s regressive coaching style.

    Whether you agree with the organization selecting a running back in the first round or not, the Chargers’ brass moved up two spots to take Gordon with the No. 15 overall pick, giving up a fourth rounder in this year’s draft and a fifth rounder in the 2016 draft to get him.

    Yet the system that McCoy implements on offense has not put Gordon in the best position to succeed, and punishing the University of Wisconsin product for fumbling by taking him out of the game is not fixing the problem, or helping to build the confidence of a first-year player attempting to get comfortable in a new system.

    While Gordon’s fumbles have resulted in lost scoring opportunities, opposing defenses have not turned them into points.

    Quarterback Philip Rivers has thrown a league-leading five interceptions for touchdowns, but no one in their right mind would suggest that McCoy bench the likely future Hall of Famer for his mistakes.

    We all know that Rivers is the most important player on the team. And similarly, the development of Gordon is critical to the improvement of San Diego’s offense.

    Who is McCoy kidding? The Chargers are 3-9 and going nowhere. Gordon has to get better. And the only way to do that is with more playing time, not less.

    Gordon has yet to carry the ball 20 times in a contest with the Chargers. He averaged 25 carries a game his final season at Wisconsin.

    The Chargers drafted a workhorse running back but choose to use him as a role player in a pass-first scheme. Gordon was never allowed to get into a rhythm during the game because his carries are too sporadic, so we never get a chance to see what the rookie can do if the coach loosened the reins and let him carry the load for a full game.

    “[I dream about it] a lot,” Gordon said when asked about carrying the ball 25 times in a game. “I probably would have got 18 to 20 carries this game if I didn’t hurt myself.

    “That last drive I was in there, the way we were moving the ball effectively like that, with the O-line pushing guys back getting movement, the fullback getting movement and Phil putting us in the right plays, we could be pretty dangerous out there.”

    We’d like to see what that looks like on a regular basis as well, Melvin.
     
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  2. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I mostly agree: The old "You'll sit on the bench if you fumble" sounds good,
    but ignores the real NFL rookie history of the Adrian Petersons and LaDainian Tomlinsons.

    To be fair, the Chargers actually went back to Gordon on the very next offensive snap after
    MG's first 3rd quarter fumble!! Probably trying to get him "back on the horse"
    (a super important point that doesn't seem to fit Eric Williams' simplistic narrative...so he just overlooks it) :rolleyes:
    and I remember thinking after Gordon caught the pass
    "Do not let that ball get away from you again or you won't see it again for a long time!!"
    since Denver smelled blood and was aggressively trying to strip.
    So when I saw him lose it out of bounds :mad:--even though I'm a supporter and want to see him get his touches--
    I was forced to concede that he literally put the ball on the turf on two consecutive snaps...
    and that is just way too big for any coaching staff to overlook.

    So, while Williams glosses over important info, the point remains that 155 carries in 12 games
    --for a guy who put up 2,587 yards last year, and you traded up to get--is absurd...
    but maybe now that the season is lost, they give him significant work over the remaining
    4 games to finally find out what he can actually do.
     
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  3. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Lance, I think you are the one ignoring the "real rookie history of the Adrian Petersons and LaDainian Tomlinsons".

    First, Peterson only fumbled 4 times in his rookie season on 238 attempts, losing 3 of them. Gordon already has surpassed Peterson's fumble totals on just 155 carries (6 fumbles, 4 lost).

    Second, Peterson has had seasons in which he fumbled 9 and 6 times, but in those two seasons, Peterson had 363 and 314 carries, respectively, which is more than twice Gordon's number of carries.

    Similarly, in LT's worst fumbling season as a rookie, he fumbled 5 times and lost 4 of them, but did so on 339 carries, more than twice the number of carries that Gordon has.

    Gordon has a major fumbling problem, the worst of any Charger #1 RB since Chuck Muncie. Gordon is on pace to fumble the ball 8 times and lose 6 fumbles despite being relatively lightly used for a #1 RB. As a HC, you just can't have that level of ineptitude.

    There are a lot of coaches that would send any RB to the bench given those numbers.

    And it isn't as if Gordon has displayed some sort of dominant running form either. He is not looking any better on the field than Naked Pictures when running the ball. And let's face it, Naked Pictures sucks.

    Also, it isn't as if the team was unaware that he fumbled the ball 7 times and lost 6 of them on 343 attempts in his final season at Wisconsin. You don't expect fumble numbers to get better when playing against players that are more capable of separating a RB from the ball at the next level.

    I am not ready to declare Gordon a bust or even a major reach just yet based upon one season, but our FO is looking like a bunch of buffoons for using 3 draft picks and trading up to get a known fumbler that from day one lacked elite measurables and came from a college known to produce RBs that could not reproduce the success they had in college at the NFL level. And this is especially so when one considers that we already had a guy with ability as good as Gordon's if not better in Mathews that we could have re-signed for chump change, keeping all of our draft picks to fill other holes.

    Don't blame McCoy for having to deal with sh!tty RB performance in terms of ball security and tentative running every other carry. Blame the schmuck who sacrificed half of a season's draft to select the sh!tty performing RB when there were more established, better and cheaper RB options readily available to the team.
     
  4. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    It's dumb to add skill players before you build the lines.... that strategy always fails. The skill players can't do squat, if you're getting dominated up front. I thought this was basic football wisdom that any GM would know. Draft beef, if you want to build a winner.
     
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  5. Fossil

    Fossil BoltTalker

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    ^^^ This is totally false.
    Signed, Norv and A.J.
     
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  6. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Which is particularly crazy, since Norv's offense relied on having the deep threat, which is impossible when your line can't protect for more the 2.5 seconds tops. ;)
     
  7. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    McCoy has mismanaged Gordon horribly this year, Gordon hasn't lived up to his billing. McCoy hasn't put the player in the best position to succeed (using him horribly, not trying to establish the run except at the worst time) and Gordon needs to keep improving
     
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  8. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Someone wake me up when Telesco signs/drafts one OL player as good as McNeill, Hardwick, Goff or Dielman. It has been three years and it has not happened yet.
     
  9. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I disagree.

    The situation cannot be a perfect one since Telesco has failed to assemble a good run blocking OL. That is part of the problem.

    The other part is on Gordon, who is frequently tentative when the situation calls for him to hit a small hole hard and just take 2-3 yards instead of dancing around and getting tackled for a loss or no gain. Also, Gordon fails to read some plays where there is a better hole, cut back lane or the play could be bounced outside and by the time he figures it out, it is too late and the play goes nowhere. And, of course, there is the aforementioned gigantic fumbling problem.

    Why should Gordon get more carries when he is not producing and is fumbling when even Naked Pictures has been a more reliable option than Gordon?

    And why is the lack of player skill McCoy's fault?
     
  10. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    Dielman was drafted as a DL-man. That unpolished gem was crafted into brilliance by Marty and his coaching staff. Give the proper credit to whom it's due to! Dielman was so good that he made both McNeill and Hardwick seem better, but one does get lucky once in a while.

    Further, had it not been for McGuire and players like Lo Neil to go on batting for the Chargers during his contract extension negotiations, Dielman would have ended up in Seattle. Also learn your history and don't give AJ too much credit ;)
     
  11. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I'm not ignoring anything.
    Peterson fumbled 20 times in his first 915 carries, losing 13 of them...
    many worried that he would never learn to take care of the ball. But he did.

    Now is probably not the most fair time to compare Gordon's numbers...since the last 2 really jumped his percentage (but did you miss me saying that coaches had to react to him fumbling on consecutive snaps?)

    Would Gordon's fumble percentage drop drastically if he actually got the carries he was drafted for?
    No one knows. But likely his current cycle of rust from inaction and punitive coaching is not helping.
    Fortunately no one gave up on AP after 3 troubled seasons of holding onto the ball.
    I think we can give Gordon more than 155 carries before deciding that he can't master it too.
    Let the man play...and then let the chips fall where they may. It's too early to as hysterical as some are.
     
  12. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    This coaching staff seems to be composed of many morons as evident by the development or there lack of, the younger players' progress. Granted that the injuries have taken a heavy toll, but still this team should have done better than the putrid current 3-9 record. Not only the younger talent has not been coming along as well as expected, the FA signees have also languished.

    Case in point: I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago to one of Scott Kaplan's observations and his frustrations with the lack of physicality with this OL regarding the protection of the team's MVP and the jewel in the crown! According to Kaplan, Rivers was so badly mishandled that with a 3-9 record for a team going nowhere this season, an intuitional penalty by one of the OL-man on a Bronco defender would have been perfectly justified in lieu of the 15 yards penalty and a possible fine, just to send a message that those sort of "rough play" on Rivers would not be tolerated. I whole heartedly agreed with the said notion! Furthermore, Kaplan noted that during the O being on the sidelines, the OL coach, Joe D was going through photos, papers, schemes like a mad scientist and there was Orlando Franklin looking completely disengaged and disinterested.

    :poop: Owners + :poop: FO / GM + :poop: Coaches + :poop: players = :poop: :helm1: :poop:
     
  13. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    Please do NOT compare Melting Gordon's current rookie season fumbles to the likes of the great LT and the great AD Peterson! Those icons had already scored many TD and had gained many yards from behind LoS to have well compensated for those fumbles. I said this last week, Melting Gordon now has a tough time carrying the jockstraps of the guy he was supposed to have replaced, i.e, the fragile Regina! :rolleyes:
     
  14. ZapCannon

    ZapCannon Active Member

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    i hate to say it, but Donald Brown seems like he should be used more.. I don't think Melvin Gordon is a complete bust yet.. :confused:

    also what about this mediocre DEFENSE everyone keeps forgetting about! :abq2:
     
  15. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    You indicated that the philosophy of benching young RBs that fumble ignores the rookie histories of great RBs like LT and Adrian Peterson.

    That discussion ignores the fact Gordon's fumble numbers are very different than those of the younger versions of LT and Peterson. For your benefit, I even considered higher fumble numbers that Peterson had in his second season and third season even though you only referenced the rookie seasons of LT and Peterson.

    The fact remains that if you took the worst of the three seasons I discussed from either Peterson or LT, Peterson's second season in which he had 9 fumbles with 4 lost fumbles, and you gave Gordon Peterson's number of attempts and Gordon fumbled at his current rate of fumbling, Gordon would finish the year with 14 fumbles and 9 lost fumbles (and both numbers have to be rounded down in order get results of "only" 14 and 9).

    My point is that the fumble numbers do not at all resemble the histories of LT and Adrian Peterson. Gordon's fumbling is much worse. It has not quite reached the single season fumbling abyss of such notorious all-time fumblers as Chuck Muncie and Wendell Tyler, but Gordon does lead the NFL among RBs in both fumbles and fumbles lost on only 155 carries. At this rate, the problem is a major one, not a minor one.

    Further, as Blitzy correctly noted, the performance levels of great players like LT and Peterson do not at all resemble Gordon's anemic performance.

    I agree with you that it is way too early to dismiss Gordon as a bust of a draft pick or even as a major reach of a draft pick. I think it is clear that the OL's poor performance has contributed to Gordon's lack of success. But I also think that Gordon's tentativeness is very obvious when you compare his running to that of his teammates. The result is that you have a first round draft pick that really has not significantly outperformed the likes of Branden Oliver (a player I really like, but one who is a fringe roster type player at best).

    In any event, I am not going to put the poor performance of the OL and Gordon on McCoy, nor am I going to blame him for benching a guy that has been fumbling as much as Gordon has been fumbling.
     
  16. ZapCannon

    ZapCannon Active Member

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    how about that donald brown!

    not only did we get dominated by the broncos, but we got dominated LAZILY! arggggghhhh!!!!

    those backup O-line aren't even athletes they missed blocks like it was on purpose! I literally watched the left tackle let a guy right by him because he was simply TOO LAZY TO FALL ON TOP OF THE GUY!
    omfg! kill me!

    these aren't paid backup athletes!
    these aren't even paid backup dummies taking up space!
    I bet a high schooler can block better than that!!!!!!

    if the joke is on me, plz plz plz save me some stressful manic balding and just let me know.. :(

    what is really going on here... just freakin what????
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
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  17. powayslugger

    powayslugger Feckless Slappy

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    All of Gordon's fumbling wouldn't be so bad except that he's getting zilch when he does run the ball the few times that McCoy and Reich will call his number and let him carry it. I mean their use of RBs borders on that crap Norv used to do... run LT up the middle for no gain, then run him OT for no gain and then let rivers throw the incomplete pass.

    McCoy has done even worse than that! He has gone out of his way NOT to run the football this season. These schemes that the no load O-coord puts together are a total joke. They're so f-ing predictable every series. We refuse to run early in the game then get behind and can't run it- but then late in the game when it's pretty much over, there's those runs by Woodhead when when the other team is in their prevent defense. . I don't think you could utilize this teams talent any worse than what that turd Reich has done the last two seasons. I said it was stupid to fleet him up to o-coord when Whiz left and Frank has proven we right in spades.

    McCoy and Reich have turned this team into a total clusterflop.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  18. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    Give Gordon some good blocking and proper coaching (coaching to his strength) and it's a whole different ballgame. McLeaf just is not HC material, I mean how can there be anyone worse than Norv? The Bolts assembled one giant O-line for this season and they have dropped like rain, (it don't rain in southern Cali) McLeaf is way over his head his traning and strength Dept are worse now than they were before and that's hard to believe but unfortunately we have witnessed it for 12 weeks now.

    If TT doesn't replace this pathetic coaching and training staff this off season I will be compelled to agree with the Chain on his inability.
     
  19. Fossil

    Fossil BoltTalker

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    Here's a thought.
    The Spanos' are NOT going to replace McCoy with a great football coach because that coach will demand a certain amount of autonomy over player/personnel decisions.
    This family of inept control freaks, who seem way too comfortable working with a first-time GM and a first-time HC, are not genetically predisposed to give up calling the shots, no matter how horrid the outcome of their decisions.
    The notion that the Spanos' would fire McCoy and actually hire someone better is suddenly sounding quite absurd to me.
     
  20. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    From what I am reading, unless McCoy refuses to fire his staff, they are not going to replace him at all...

    :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
     
  21. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Blaming the coaching for the team's inability to run the ball puts the blame in the wrong place.

    Where is the OL talent? The OL cannot run block or pass block. Dunlap, when healthy, is an average starter. Franklin is terrible--not bad, terrible. Robinson is very bad and he is better than Watt, who is not even worthy of being in the NFL as a reserve (great 3rd round pick). Fluker is an average NFL player. Barksdale is an average NFL player at best.

    While nothing to write home about, I think Dunlap, Fluker and Barksdale are worth keeping on the roster. The entire rest of the OL can be flushed down the toilet. Three average OL players and sh!t just might indicate that the OL lacks talent in a big way.

    As for Gordon, when we drafted him, I was furious that we wasted two additional draft picks to trade up to get him. That said, I thought he had the raw talent to be as good as Ryan Mathews at some point. However, so far, that level of performance is a long way off for Gordon.

    One thing is crystal clear--the comparisons to Jamaal Charles are an absolute joke. Maybe if you force fed Jamaal Charles about 12 beers, then Charles might run like Gordon, but absent that there is no meaningful comparison to be had at all between the two RBs.

    Could Reich do better at calling plays? Yes, absolutely. But even if he were the best play caller ever, this OL and #1 RB would not be running the ball effectively. The talent simply is not there. The blame belongs primarily on the person responsible for assembling the current lack of talent. That person is Tom Telesco.
     
  22. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    Feels like I read the same **** everyday, and it gets to the point where I can predict what's coming in the following paragraphs before I even glance at them. Actually, let me reword that, I know what's coming before I even open the thread. God Bless America, Stay Classy San Diego and maybe, maybe one day I can rest my eyes peacefully at night knowing some people on this Chargers forum have some reasonable opinions.
     
  23. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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  24. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I know what you mean.

    If I read one more person suggesting that everything would be bliss with our team if someone other than McCoy and Reich were coaching this team, I think I might just vomit.

    People here need to wake up to reality. Favorably talented teams are not 3-9 and going on 3-12 as a general proposition.

    Do you dispute that we have zero above average OL players, 3 average OL players and that the rest are considerably below average?

    Do you dispute that our OL does not run block effectively? Do you dispute that our OL has not won the battle of the trenches even for one game this year?

    Do you dispute that Gordon has been extremely tentative and slow to diagnose running lanes on many occasions and that he has a significant fumbling problem?

    If you or anyone else does not dispute the above, I do not see why you think that with a different coach, Gordon would suddenly somehow be running the ball effectively for us.

    It really is simple. Defenders from our opponents are better players than our players when it comes to the running game. We are working from a talent/skill deficit in the running game every single week to the point that we are ineffective in the running game if not completely dominated at times.
     
  25. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    It doesn't matter without us having enough good players on the roster and it never will.

    The person that needs to be fired in order to give us the possibility of making consistently good roster moves has been extended. Therefore, we are likely to see more of the ongoing stupidity that has led us to our current lack of talent on the roster. In short, absent Telesco being dismissed, we are screwed.
     
  26. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    You're missing the point. The people who need to be fired most are the ones that can't be fired..... the ownership. As long as the Spanos clan is running the show, expect poor decision making to rule the roost.
     
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  27. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    He purposefully has decided to ignore those very crucial points. A very typical lawyer approach to this issue, to either get a conviction in charge of the prosecution of this matter, or to get an exoneration as the defense atty!
     
  28. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    That's because it mucks with the meme. ;)
     
  29. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    Happens quite often.. don't sweat it
     
  30. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I disagree. The Spanos ownership had A.J. at GM before Telesco. He may have been a first rate jerk and believed his own press too much at times, but that SOB gave us a tremendous UDFA crop in 2003, a great draft in 2004 and a very good draft in 2005. The ownership also had Marty at HC. While Marty was not perfect, he was good at most things.

    I think I've got the point and that many of the posters here are missing the point. A better GM will select better players and make fewer idiotic moves than Telesco has. And to the extent that they may wish to bitch about the coaches, they might want to consider who hired McCoy.

    This team is not going to win consistently without getting better players. They are 25+ players away from having a solid roster. Such a talent deficient group is hard to get wins from against NFL teams, almost all of which are more talented than we are. And we aren't likely to get better players as long as Telesco keeps losing us more good players than he brings aboard.
     

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