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Oakland's CB tandem No. 1? Insiders rank five better

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Deb, Jun 19, 2008.

  1. Deb

    Deb BoltTalker

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    http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10870259

    Oakland's CB tandem No. 1? Insiders rank five better

    June 18, 2008
    By Clark Judge
    CBSSports.com Senior Writer



    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]DeAngelo Hall is wrong. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]When the Oakland cornerback said in an ESPN.com interview that the Raiders had the best set of corners in the league, he erred. The Raiders aren't the best at anything unless, of course, you're talking about losing. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Their 19-61 record the past five years is the worst in the league. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][​IMG] DeAngelo Hall was more trouble than production in Atlanta. (Getty Images) [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]As for their cornerbacks, they should make for a good tandem, and, yes, they could wind up being one of the league's best. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I said could. Because while Nnamdi Asomugha is terrific, Hall is erratic and unreliable -- a talented player who thinks he's better than he is and who is coming off two subpar seasons. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"He's the Chad Johnson of defense," said one NFL assistant. "He's too far gone to know he's gone." [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Plus, he hasn't played a down in Oakland, so there's no yardstick here. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]All I know is the Raiders better hope Hall plays as tough as he talks. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"The only way the Raiders are the best pair of cornerbacks," said an AFC defensive coordinator, "is when Hall is doing the evaluating. It's like he's a self-proclaimed Muhammad Ali. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"But Oakland has its cornerbacks playing man-to-man most of the game, and that's tough. So you're going to notice them, just as you're going to notice cornerbacks in schemes that depend more on that position than in defenses like Indianapolis, Tampa Bay or Chicago." [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Still, Hall and Asomugha are not in a league of their own. Not yet anyway, though one secondary coach conceded that "if Hall plays to his potential and (Asomugha) has a good year they might be the best." [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]And that got me to thinking: What's the competition? What are the tandems Hall and Asomugha are trying to catch? And where is the company they will try to keep? [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Read on. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Green Bay Packers [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Charles Woodson deserved better last season. Before suffering a toe injury, he was the Packers' top defensive back and one of the top defenders anywhere. Yet somehow he was left off the Pro Bowl team. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Big mistake. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]So Woodson isn't as fast as he once was. He still can cover speed receivers, and he knows how to find the football. A year ago he recovered a fumble and returned it for the game-clinching touchdown against Washington. Then he picked off a pass against Kansas City and took it to [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]the end zone. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"With Woodson and Al Harris," said a player personnel director, "you're getting veteran, talented leadership. Both are on the downsides of their careers, but both are still scary to face." [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Ah, yes, Al Harris. I almost forgot. He was named to the Pro Bowl, and he has been solid for years. He and Woodson make a compelling case for numero uno -- provided, of course, Woodson stays healthy. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]OK, so there's the age thing, too. Woodson turns 32 this season and Harris 34, and that's an issue. But they're hardly The Over the Hill Gang. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"The way (critics) look at people who are 31," Woodson said last year, "it's like me and Al are prehistoric." [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Maybe they should talk to Green Bay's opponents. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]San Diego Chargers [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The difference-maker here is Antonio Cromartie, now entering his third season. Most observers will tell you that Quentin Jammer, Cromartie's partner, hasn't lived up to pre-draft expectations and is little more than an ordinary-to-good cornerback. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]But Cromartie is different. Antonio Cromartie is an All-Pro waiting to happen. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"He's probably one year away from joining (Champ) Bailey as one of the league's special players," said an AFC personnel director. "He has speed, instincts and youth. I don't expect him to have 10 interceptions again, but I do expect him to get better, which means he pushes Bailey as the best at his position." [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Cromartie last year led the league in interceptions, and he didn't start until the second half of the season. He has great ball instincts. He's quick. He's fast. And he's a game-breaker, with skeptics urged to cue up his interception return in San Diego's playoff defeat of Indianapolis. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"To me," said our player personnel director, "Jammer is just a guy. But Cromartie has no holes. The sky is the limit for him. [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Even though Jammer never lived up his draft hype, he's a good complement to (Cromartie). You're talking about tandems, right? That means you include Cromartie. This has to be one of the best." [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Denver Broncos [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][​IMG] Champ Bailey remains the standard at cornerback. (Getty Images)

    Champ Bailey is still the platinum bar of cornerbacks, the standard by which others are measured, and I don't care if you buy into it or not. Most GMs, coaches and personnel directors do, and that's good enough for me.

    "He's an elite player," said one general manager. "He not only makes all the plays; he makes whoever plays with him better."

    That would be Dre' Bly, and there's nothing extraordinary about him other than he takes too many risks ("for every five plays he makes, he'll miss on two others," said one GM). But pair him with Bailey, and, suddenly, the conversation changes.

    "Dre' Bly is nothing better than OK," said an AFC offensive assistant, "but having him with Champ Bailey makes him look better than he is."

    Yes, Bailey was hurt last year. He still was second-team All-Pro. That should tell you something. So should this: He has been chosen to eight consecutive Pro Bowls and four straight All-Pro teams.

    "The guy is special," a pro personnel director said. "There's no downside to him."

    Dallas Cowboys

    With the addition of Pacman Jones, the Cowboys have the "wow factor" owner Jerry Jones craves. Only -- who knows? -- it might be, "Wow, I can't believe he got arrested again."

    That is one reason experts hedge on the Cowboys. With Jones and Terence Newman in the same secondary, Dallas seems to be equipped to defend itself against Super Bowl MVP Eli Manning, who shredded the Cowboys for seven TDs (including the playoffs) last season.

    "Newman is a good, solid corner," said an AFC player personnel director, "but I don't consider him special. Pacman has special qualities, but he's a ding-a-ling. He's a better player than Bly, but he will take the same chances. Yes, he makes spectacular plays, but he also gives up big plays."

    When Jones was with Tennessee he was more effective as a returner than as a cornerback. In fact, the Titans were a better defense with Nick Harper at corner than they were with Jones.

    You can look it up: In 2006 they had the 27th-ranked pass defense; last year they were 10th.

    I'm not blaming that on Pacman, but at the very least he was a factor.

    Harper isn't as talented, but he is more consistent -- and he proved it last season.

    Nevertheless, expectations are high in Dallas, where fans believe Jones' addition could allow the Cowboys to be more aggressive on defense.

    Maybe, but keep this in mind: He hasn't suited up for a game in 18 months.

    "It makes you wonder if he's the same player," said one scout.

    Philadelphia Eagles

    A year ago the Eagles had 11 interceptions and 19 takeaways, good for dead last in both categories. That must change, and it will -- primarily because the club hired former New England star Asante Samuel as a cornerback.

    Samuel is a ballhawk who pulled down 16 interceptions in two years and returned three more for touchdowns in the playoffs, tying an NFL record.

    Say no more about what he can do for Philadelphia. The Eagles' defense didn't produce one TD off a return in 2007.

    "My favorite defensive back in the league is Asante Samuel," said Giants wide receiver David Tyree, "basically because he can do everything."

    So the Eagles noticed. Samuel intercepted them twice last season, including one he returned for a 40-yard touchdown, and was a member of the team that defeated Philadelphia in Super Bowl XXXIX.

    "When you have an opportunity to get the best one in the business then you need to look at that," said coach Andy Reid.

    Samuel will be paired with Sheldon Brown and Lito Sheppard will be the first cornerback off the bench. Sheppard is a two-time Pro Bowl pick. Brown should have been named to a Pro Bowl but was not. Samuel is an All-Pro.

    DeAngelo Hall, you have company.
    -----------------------

    I hate Hall and any article putting him in his place is a good one if you ask me.

    Wade finally has two CB's who can play man to man at an elite level so it's going to be interesting to see how aggressive he is with the defense this season.[/FONT]
     
  2. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    oakland just can't win :lol:

    my complaint is with denver, bailey's the best no question but bly's more sizzle then actual steak
     
  3. Enormo

    Enormo BoltTalker

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    I'm as big of a Cro fan as the next guy but this is just more sports media hype. Cro is the exciting player so they give him top billing.

    Yeah... Jammer is just any other guy. I'm fine with the rest of the league thinking that.
     
  4. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    They also seem to underestimate Jammer. It took him a while to mature, but he can more thanhold his own now. Rivers must have Bailey and Bly psyched out, because we pile the points up on these boys.
     
  5. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    Are you ****ing serious????
    Jammer is better right now then cromartie, yet hes "just a guy"??????
    Get the **** outta here :tdown:
     
  6. ghost_

    ghost_ BoltTalker

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    my guess is that D. Hall's
    a) mouth is writing cheques that his butt can't cash
    b)forgetting he's in football hell:icon_rofl:

    hey Hall
    how about letting ur play do the talking :icon_finger::turdspuke:

    eff u & :lama:icon_rofl:
     
  7. MtlBoltsFan

    MtlBoltsFan Jesse Ventura/Howard Stern 2016

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    Jammer overall is indeed better. Better tackler, better pure coverage skills. Cromartie just has the insane physical attributes and soft hands. Also has lots more confidence than Jammer although Jammer has improved greatly in this area. In 2 years or so he should surpass him. I have said since 2004 Jammer is one of the best corners in the league and he still is. I have heard 4-5 different coaches over the years praise his play when they examine him in the film room. He impacts the game in ways which don't show up on the stat sheet. We wouldn't have had 10 billion sacks in 2006 without Q.
     
  8. MtlBoltsFan

    MtlBoltsFan Jesse Ventura/Howard Stern 2016

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    DeAngelo gets burned a lot :yes:
     
  9. RM24

    RM24 BoltTalker

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    Read this old article from Paolantonio regarding Hall.....

    LINK

    Just a sample:

     
  10. MtlBoltsFan

    MtlBoltsFan Jesse Ventura/Howard Stern 2016

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    He is Florence with better tackling skills and ball skills.
     
  11. Boltdiehard

    Boltdiehard Well-Known Member

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    We're loaded!!!

    :yes:

    Let them all feel good about themselves for now because daddy is on his way (see sig please)


    :yes:
     
  12. Shamrock

    Shamrock Well-Known Member

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    Jammer is more than "just a guy" .....

    Champ Bailey's skills were eroding last year before he got injured. He's not "platinum" anything anymore.
     
  13. Boltdiehard

    Boltdiehard Well-Known Member

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    :deadhorse:

    :abq2::abq1:
     
  14. Savage Lizard

    Savage Lizard Charger fan at 7000'

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    Changing you're mind and having fresh takes on things is tough work, so a lot of media guys just stick to the same script until they absolutely have to change. So Jammer hasn't lived up to expectations and Bailey is God. It's just easier to keep thinking that.
     
  15. Yngwie77

    Yngwie77 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there are many players as underetimated as Jammer. He really takes alot of undue crap about not living up to potential. I mean the guy doesnt get a ton of INT's but thats really not what makes a CB great. Lots of Int's usually signal a guy whose receiver gets thrown to alot because the game plan dictates he can be beaten. Even in Cro's case, he was being tested cause he was a rookie. Don't expect 15 int's from him this year because if his cover skills do improve he won't even have the opportunity to get that many.
     
  16. in_a_days

    in_a_days dgaf

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    I'm glad that most Chargers fans (or at least posters here) are wise enough to recognize that Jammer is really an excellent defender and right now is a better all around player than Cro. It discredits the entire contents of an article when somebody makes ridiculous statements like "little more than an ordinary-to-good cornerback."

    This guy is breaking down the perception of these teams... not their actual talent.
     
  17. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    (1) I have at times been a harsh critic of Jammer, but I cant agree with the statement above. The last two years especially he has cut down on the PI penalties that were in my opinion his biggest weakness. He did not give up a touch down last season that I recall and is becomming a better tackler every season. He has become a very good CB, not just an ordinary to good CB.

    (2) Cro is special, and let me ask every Charger fan this... When was the last time we had a secondary that other teams worried about? Last really good secondary player I think of is Gill Bird. AJ has turned this team around and is getting talent in every position. When a person leaves (As posted by Shammy the other day) AJ replaces them with someone better.

    I look at the team now and i dont see any glaring weakness'. Receivers are improved and getting better. The secondary is solid, the linebacking corps is the best in the league IMO.

    The only true worry I have is Big Jamal. he is not spring chicken, and arguably the best damn NT in the game. With playing the cheating Donks twice a year, and everyone knowing that he makes our D much much better, I worry that he wont stay healthy throughout the season, and while he has some decent backups, not a one of them is a JAMAL!
     
  18. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    The Pacman Jones overhype is starting to piss me off.

    The guy is a bad tackler, a decent cover guy, and a great returner, that doesnt make him a one of the best DB's in the NFL. If he were going to some team like Seattle to tandem with Marcus Trufant (who is better) or Buffalo to stand opposite Antoine Winfield (also a better player) he wouldn't even be in the discussion.

    Its typical Cowboy fan hype.
     
  19. mandude

    mandude BoltTalker

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    My only fear with D. Hall is his age. The dude is young. If he was 26, and at this level, I wouldn't think twice about him, but man, he shows flashes and still has a lot upside....

    Hopefully his cancerous personality, and being on the raiders will kill any potential he might have.
     
  20. BlueandGold

    BlueandGold The Oracle

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    IMHO, Jamal started wearing down last year. You're right, he ain't no spring chicken, but he wasn't the dominant NT he's been over the past three years in '07, and probably won't be in '08 either.

    To me, it's the most glaring hole on the team right now. I'm interested to get a look at Lamar Divens, but if he doesn't show something, we need to get this addressed yesterday.
     
  21. BlueandGold

    BlueandGold The Oracle

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    Yep, great post.

    Jammer is also the reason teams do not have a choice BUT to throw at Cromartie. The article says that he may not get as many INTs, but who else is there to throw to when Jammer's got his sideline on lockdown?
     
  22. exodus

    exodus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that was lame. Jammer has been solid the last 2 seasons. Once he got over his pi's, and learned to look around, he's kept his side pretty much under control. I guess he hasn't lived up to being the best cb in the league, but really, he's a starter on any team and a hell of a lot better than most cb's in the league. Too bad he get's all this crap from people who don't know jack and haven't paid attention to how far the guy has progressed in his career. fuqem.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Aso > Jammer
    Hall < Jammer
    Aso < Cro
    Hall < Cro

    And we also got Antoine Cason who would have been a top 15 maybe even top 10 pick if he'd have come out in 07'.
     
  24. MtlBoltsFan

    MtlBoltsFan Jesse Ventura/Howard Stern 2016

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    Highly doubt that.
     
  25. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    He was a first team All American in 07' and the only reason his stats went down his senior year was because teams were throwing away from him.
     
  26. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    Jammer is every bit as good as Aso. The advantage aso has is that he plays for a horrible team where teams stop passing at halftime because of their lead, and he has never had anyone even decent opposite him, so they would never even bother throwing at him

    Yeah me too
    Cason's senior season was his best one. Hell he even won the thorpe award and thats with teams doing everything possible to throw away from him but, it doesnt matter when he came out, if he doesnt run a 4.3, he wont go top 15 in any draft
     
  27. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure all his stats went up his senior season
     
  28. Charger Dave

    Charger Dave Dead account

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    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Dre' Bly is nothing better than OK," said an AFC offensive assistant, "but having him with Champ Bailey makes him look better than he is."

    ...they could have just left it at the first 4 words in that quote and moved on...

    Champ is at that point of his career where he recognizes the play and his legs won't get him there no matter how well he anticipates the play. When he "anticipates" wrong, the Donks pay big time.
    [/FONT]
     
  29. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    That's why we've be carvin' 'em up regular like.
     
  30. Charger Dave

    Charger Dave Dead account

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    Ayup - I'm not so sure the Donk corners are any better than the Faiders - kinda hard to tell over this past couple of years.:tup:
     

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