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Paging Anteater.

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by HollywoodLeo, Apr 30, 2011.

  1. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    I want to hear a real argument for why this draft is already worse than the 1998 draft. I want a valid argument, not just your harsh conclusion.

    Keep in mind Ryan Leaf cost us a two first round picks, a 2nd round pick, and Eric Metcalf....FOR RYAN LEAF.

    That's a pretty bold claim for a draft that included no trades and where we have yet to see how the players will pan out.
     
  2. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Because of the absurd over drafting of players in rounds they had no right to be in - mouton was a udfa or a 7th rounder by all accounts. Gilchrist was a fifth rounder who has no position. Schilling was a 7th rounder

    Because of the failure to meet needs - two defensive backs, a guard who they claim will be a tackle, why I don't know, taken very late when we have no right tackle, a third running back over more pressing needs like outside linebacker

    Because of the poor choices in talent; Mouton is average to be generous, Schilling can only pray to be as good as Clary, Gilchrist has poor instincts and hands, Gachkar has little to offer but speed, the running back has lots of wear on the tires and plays in a contradictory style

    Because crucial needs were either not met early enough or were met with insufficient or incredulous choices; with every lib on the board we pick mouton who is now our starting linebacker with nothing to offer, I like brown but again with lots of options in the second round there were better talent and in the third including jerrigan, hankerson, etc. Frankly I even question Liuget who I like chosen instead of Jordan who has more experience

    That aj smith and norv turner say these people were chosen because of their special teams play. Second and third rounders absolutely play special teams but second and third rounders should never ever be chosen because of their special teams play. We have late round picks for that even with our atrocious special teams. That they claim these are the reasons for selecting substandard talent is an insult to any intelligent football fan. They had the chance to grab top quality starters and yet chose scrubs with four picks they had been carefully hoarding for yesterday.

    There are some potentially good pick ups in this draft but for a make or break year with five picks in two ays to come away with little t show for it is incredulous at best and gross incompetence at it's worse. Did anyone remotely see these layers chosen for the chargers?
     
  3. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't answer the first post.

    Tell me why it's worse than the 1998 draft. You only told me why it's a bad draft. You have to compare and contrast here.
     
  4. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Why, because you said so? :confused:

    He stated the reasons he thinks it's a bad draft. Historical comparisons are hardly the point. Whether the Chargers have adequately addressed their needs with this draft is really the only thing that matters.
     
  5. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    No. Because it doesn't argue why it's worse than the 1998 draft. Did I miss the part of Ant's response that compares it to the 1998 draft?

    Historical comparison is the exact point when your claim is that the draft is worse than any previous draft in history. Especially when you go as far as to specifically label it worse than the 1998 draft.

    How can you possibly back that claim up if you render historical comparisons beside the point?

    Ant didn't simply claim it was a bad draft. He claimed it was the worst ever.
     
  6. RipTheJacker

    RipTheJacker Well-Known Member

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    According to who? YOU???? :icon_rofl:

    BTW, we took schiling with a comp pick at the end of the 6th, HUGE reach there
     
  7. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    I guess you'll just have to wait and see then, won't you? ;)
     
  8. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    That's always my stance on the draft. There's no way of knowing whether or not it was a good or bad draft until we wait and see.

    But Anteater is the one making a wild claim so the onus is on him to argue for the claim's validity. Thus far he has only argued that it was a bad draft but has said nothing in regards to why it's worse than previous drafts, to include the infamous Ryan Leaf debacle.
     
  9. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I don't know what to think about this draft. I guess I'm just hoping AJ hit a stroke of inspiration with Mouton, and maybe there is another GM out there who would have spent a 3rd on him.

    As far as Gilchrist, Wright, and Brown....none of them seem like long term answers. I have a feeling we'll be drafting CB and WR in the 1st round soon looking for guys who are true #1 talent.

    3rd day went smoothly for me. Todman and Schilling have good chance to make the 53 man roster.
     
  10. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    There's no way for him to "prove" his assertion, but you already knew that.

    It may be his gut feeling though, and there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes, our instincts are smarter than our intellects...... #imjustsaying. ;)
     
  11. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    According to Kevin Acee, Charlie Joiner loves Vincent Brown...... he sees a real quality NFL WR in the making.
     
  12. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    Let's say for argument's sake that each and every one of this year's draft picks turns out to be a monumental bust. Hell, let's go as far as to say none of them even make the team. I think we can all agree that's the worst case scenario that we can possibly see.

    Considering the fact that no trades were made, despite how bad it would be, how can you possibly justify the claim that it's worse than a draft that saw us giving up 2 first rounders, a 2nd rounder, and Eric Metcalf to move up one spot to take Ryan Leaf?
     
  13. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    I believe he was employing a bit of hyperbole, being caught up in the emotion of the moment....... fair enough? ;)
     
  14. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure that was the case. But he's made the comparison multiple times and even carries it in his signature, so I'm calling him out on it. :icon_shrug:
     
  15. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I can see him becoming a Derick Mason clone. Incredibly clutch on 3rd downs, maybe a few TDs every year, but ultimately we'll have to re-sign VJack long term or spend a 1st round pick on a WR next year.
     
  16. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    This too shall pass............ We can only hope. ;)
     
  17. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    He's definitely not a VJ replacement, but that doesn't mean he can't be a valuable addition. He's already a very good route runner, which puts him ahead of the curve.
     
  18. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    A slot WR was a definite need. That was a decent pick, imo.
     
  19. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    If you'd prefer 2003 then go for it. This is a draft with monumental reaches like in 1998 in luring but not limited to mikhail ricks in the second which I find comparable to mouton in terms of talent and ability. Clifford ivory from Troy state jon haskins, Cedric harden from florida a&m these were piss poor players chosen who could not nor would help the chargers. That's not to say you couldn't find a player of worth we did find Jamal Williams. We could find similar with Corey Liuget or potentially Vincent brown. But as it stands we drafted players without a need unless you believe special teams is so important right one over all others that we have or have the potential to lose because of free agents. When given so many picks without the need to trade up or down with so many holes to fill to come away with marginal at best players and scrubs at worst with so many promising players available, it is disgraceful. I do not see how in the world this looks like anything but a disaster baring some incredible magical success and if that happens I'll come here and on the air and say I was dead wrong. I've eaten crow on chris chambers before willingly and will again if this turns out to be the case.
     
  20. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Especially, since we "slotted" Buster into the dustbin. ;)
     
  21. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    I agree. I could see The logic in the pick and I could believe the opinion of joiner. I can even see the validity of the wright pick. But it doesn't make sense in the context of Gilchrist and our other needs. I question whether brown will provide what we need considering crayton and floyd potentially on th roster. Cornerback wasn't a need in this draft. We needed a tackle, we got someone who on his best day might not be better than clary. We needed inside linebackers and we got two scrubs. We needed another OLB and didn't get one. Only need we hit and made us better at is DE and that's a question still.

    And if you prefer another draft to base it on because we didn't make a trade then pick one at your pleasure. Bsed on what I see will be a lack of production from this group I think 1998 is valid but I'd be thrilled if we get 2007 draft level production.
     
  22. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    The Ryan Leaf trade still trumps all.
     
  23. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    See... this I don't get. And I think too many people have been spoiled by having Jackson. We don't have to have a Randy Moss-model clone like Vincent Jackson in this particular offensive scheme in order for Rivers to light up opposing defenses week in and week out. You put Phillips Rivers with a player like Greg Jennings and I'd wager dollars to donuts that he produces in equal fashion to the manner in which he does with Vincent Jackson.

    Why do I pick Greg Jennings particularly? Two reasons. One, matilack brought up Derek Mason... and if we're going off of what Derek Mason was producing in his prime then you're effectively looking at what Greg Jennings is doing nowadays - in his prime. The second reason... take a look at the tape (both the video and the measuring tape), Brown compares quite favorable to Greg Jennings as a prospect. His burst is actually slightly superior, his long speed isn't as great but he has enough that if he gets separation off the line it's not going to make much of a difference. Both needed to fill out their frame more (and we "undersized" but knew how to use the size they had effectively) mostly to be able to beat press-coverage, but the burst forced teams to respect them with cushions more times than not. And both had good hands and were lacking just a little polish in their route-running to make them extremely versatile type players.

    Now you're going to tell me that with a high-quality and accurate QB, that Greg Jennings isn't a #1 receiver and that the Packers should have been spending a 1st to get some 6'5", 230 lbs. guy that has the same speed because Jennings isn't good enough?

    No, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Vincent Brown IS Greg Jennings. But I see a lot of similarities - something that Joiner may well see as well - and he now has the (in my opinion - homer shades off) single best WR coach in the league (as soon as he's able to work with him be it by lifted lockout or new CBA) to refine his game... and who went to bat for him and wanted him.

    This Randy Moss/Vincent Jackson/Calvin Johnson type #1 WR is seen by too many people (fans in particular) around the league as an absolute need when really - and particularly if you have a top quarterback - it's far, far more of a luxury. The same goes for the "shutdown" corners. Much more luxury than necessity. If you can get one and you can afford to make that luxury pick, more power to you. If you don't have that luxury you can still have an extremely successful and productive secondary - and not have to spend 1st round picks to get them (or need I bring up that the Packers put out - and started in the Super Bowl - a Pro Bowler and a player that could have made a case for DROY in Traimon Williams and Sam Shields, respectively... and both were UDFA's.
     
  24. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    I'll also say this, Ant... been talking to a number of connections I have who have had access and contacts with team scouts from the Senior Bowl on, and they're all telling me that Gilchrist's stock has been steadily climbing over the past couple weeks. Leaving the combine he was carrying anywhere from low 3rd to high 5th round stock depending on who you asked. Of late I've had a lot of them telling me that his stock had climbed to a solid floor of a mid-3rd and there were several teams picking at the top of the 3rd round that they knew had shown interest in him. It's entirely plausible that whether Gilchrist was our guy or whether he was Plan B, the selections of similar flex-DB prospects in Aaron Williams, Ras-I Dowling, and Rahim Moore got AJ thinking that Gilchrist wasn't going to last to #62 - where he well could have been initially targeting him and where IMO his value would have been spot-on if everything I'm hearing is right.

    Mouton... who really knows? Someone must have sold him hard or he had one hell of an interview (I haven't yet had a chance to listen/watch his interview with dot-com yet, so I can't draw any conclusions on the later). There's a reason why Martez Wilson and Quan Sturdivant were passed over by not just us but A LOT of teams who had need at ILB. I was never a big Wilson fan because he has low football IQ (something if you look at the players we drafted appears to be a dominant trend) and he's another classic example of compensating for lack of great technique with athletic prowess.

    Todman was - by and large - carrying a 3rd to 4th round grade (well ahead of a number of the other RB's selected ahead of him) with most of the folks that I've talked to as well as a number of the talking heads and internet scouts. To get him in the 6th is pure value. Same can be said for Schilling. He's the anti-Clary. Whether he'll prove to be better than him on whole as a player is something different (I'm not even certain if the coaching staff will be able to figure out to give him reps at tackle), but he's a guy who got by on effort, technique, and attitude whereas Clary got by on alleged "great athletic gifts" that he could never translate into high-end play. Schilling was another guy carrying solid 4th round stock (with a 5th round floor) and we garnered him with a 6th round compensatory pick. Again... great value.

    I'm not defending this as some great draft. Until shown on the field I don't see how it could be. It was the epitome of average... and let's be honest EVERYONE save for about 3 or 4 front offices was reaching in this draft. AJ's gonna do AJ. And in looking at the guys that we did get, even though I'm not a huge fan of either Wright (as a prospect) or Mouton... every single one of them is coachable. If we fail to produce quality players from this (what was considered to be a pretty weak draft class at all but maybe one or two of our need positions) I'd hang it much more on a disconnect between the coaching staff and AJ. Everything from the past couple days points to AJ very much listening to what and who his coaches wanted - and assuming they passed the Smith once-over, he went out and got the guys his coaches said that they wanted specifically.

    If this translates to - either via uncapped year free agency rules or actual contract extensions - our front office recognizing that they need to put a concerted effort into re-signing our free agent starters, I hate to say it but this draft looks better than most of the recent ones we've had - because you also have to note that we came out of this without having given up a single future pick in the 2012 draft which is anti-AJ as well.
     
  25. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    You spent a lot of time on this post and you missed my point entirely.

    I would argue Greg Jennings is a Jackson/Moss/Johnson type reciever. Obviously not in build, but in raw talent. He can beat you deep, he runs crisp medium routes, catches the ball in heavy traffic, racks up YAC etc... you get the point. There is little or no obvious weakness you can point to.

    Vincent Brown (like Mason) is always going to be limited by his lack of deep speed, and sooner or later we'll need a guy who can stretch the field and draw double coverage from teams who are afraid of giving away the game in one play. VJ is a luxury no doubt, but he's a luxury every OC in the league covets.
     
  26. foober

    foober BoltTalker

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    After researching these picks the chargers made this draft. Its evident they went off thier own research to come to thier conclusions. Obviously the chargers didn't read any web pre-mock draft websites to find insight. Which actually might be somewhat smart.

    This draft had only so many really stand out players. As any draft has. After the first round as usual the rest are just role players and fill ins to solidfy your team.
     
  27. reef shark

    reef shark BoltTalker

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    2008 has been the worst since leaf! this is a terrible point to make but i have to try, 2008 was two picks cason and hester. and trading picks to the pats for a backup rb in hester to replace michael turner? or as a fullback really? the whole 2003 class actually played the next year for the chargers except maybe milligan and he left after making the probowl
     
  28. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    We got Scifres in the 2003 draft
     
  29. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    we also got Dielman (I think), Osgood, Gates and Cooper in UDFA. Not the point. The punter was the ONLY pick we actually hit on, we passed on numerous good players in the first four rounds to select two busts (Davis/Van Buren), one drug addict (Kiel), one average but dumb player (Florence) and one poor player (Wilhelm). If we hit that many in UDFA i'll be thrilled. We might hit on Liuget, but the rest I think will fall into many of the same categories just listed.
     
  30. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    No. I agree the 2003 draft was horrible. I just wanted to highlight the Scifres pick.
     

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