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Player you don't want

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by Bolts4lyfe, Mar 29, 2012.

  1. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Alot of these posts are about players you want, there are so many to chose from with how much we need, now it's time to jump onto the other side of the ball and post that player with the 1st round grade that you do not want if he should be available'

    DT Dontari Poe: I believe he is a workout warrior for one before the combine he was graded as a mid to late 2nd early 3rd even that is a bit high for him, after the combine he is marked as the best DT in the draft. Poe was constantly doubled and showed no explosion, and no penetration at all into the backfield, shows no awareness of the play at all, just more single minded focus on pushing the line which he again showed no effort to do. doesn't show upper body strength, speed, or technique. if you go on youtube you can find 1 highlight reel on him

    I found this



    but even this is just all his combine workout, which is a huge red flag. I see someone who should not be graded as a 1st round yet alone top 10. If AJ wants to impress this year in the draft he can start by not drafting Poe
     
  2. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Michael Brockers
    Stephon Gilmore
    Cordy Glenn (not in the first, its DeCastro or move on)
    Mike Adams
    Mark Barron
     
  3. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    On my list:
    Whitney Mercilus - Literally, I have a late 2nd, early 3rd round grade on the guy so I have no clue where people are getting 1st round stock from even if you adjust for teams making what is typically considered a "standard reach" of 15 spots on him. His instincts are sub-par - it's one thing to have a lazy rock-back in your burst (Ingram) or just seem to get off late due to something in your physical movements (Branch), it's something entirely different to be getting off late pretty consistently because of something mental (like getting caught staring in the backfield). It's a shame because the guy does appear to have some solid physical potential (his lateral agility isn't everything it's being hyped up to be, but there's no denying he has potential), but it's been my experience that mental errors are more difficult to overwrite than the physical ones. What worries me the most is that he's more an effort guy than a overtly physical player (couple that with the fact that his fallback pass-rushing move is the bull-rush and he strikes me as far more project than I'd want to invest a 1st round pick in), and effort guys just don't have the success rate in the pros if they have demonstrated consistent production as a collegian (and even then you get guys like Jerry Hughes who don't do squat). At absolute best I see Mercilus as another Anthony Spencer - and that's not what I'd call a high-ceiling/high-volume pass-rusher.

    Mohammed Sanu - Career #2 WR and less likely to make an immediate impact than people are crediting him for. His route-running is sloppy beyond belief, he doesn't have the ability to take the top off a defense because he lacks a 2nd gear, and he's slow off the line with his release. Ultimately what it boils down to is that he's a guy who will make his living off of finding holes in zone-coverage and making a grab without a ton of YAC tacked on; that type of player has exceedingly more value to West Coast Offenses than one like ours. Just a case of bad fit/bad value.

    Either of the FSU OT's - Both have no lower-body strength/drive whatsoever - they're guys much more tailored for the zone-blocking scheme than our power-blocking scheme.

    Jake Bequette - Congratulations, Jake, you had a good combine. Thing is, anyone who'd been following you at Arkansas for your career there knew that you have never played up to your measurables and timed speeds. Throw in the fact that he's a bit of a headcase in terms of ego and I just don't see the value in him as a pick where he's slated to go.
     
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  4. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Agreed, although I'd disagree on Barron, Gilmore, and Brockers if we were able to somehow trade back to grab them and gain an additional pick for them.

    I still find Fletcher Cox to be intriguing if we were to take him at DE

    but honestly other than a tweak on SS and Pass Rusher and CB I think free agency put a bandaid on almost every need its almost as if every round will be a pick of depth with competition to maybe become the starter
     
  5. gettough

    gettough BoltTalker

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  6. boltfanatik

    boltfanatik Toxic Minority Member

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    I Dunno I think Poe has Potential JMO though
     
  7. charger1993

    charger1993 bad motherfucker

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    Poe, upshaw,dennard,
     
  8. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    Thats all he has. Thats the problem. He shows flashes on film, but thats all he's got. Every once in a while, he makes plays that are just inhuman, but most of the game, he really looks like an average college player, where he should dominate vs. CUSA opponents with his freakishness. But his draft spot is based strictly off potential. His play indicates a 5th round prospect, his athleticism indicates a top 5 pick.
     
  9. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    That sound like Bruce Campbell to anyone else? Or really, best case scenario for Poe in terms of limited on-tape production still getting a reasonably high draft position (cue CoronaDoug...) Allen Bailey?

    It's the same issue I have with Stephon Gilmore. Yes, the guy has athletic and physical upside out the yin-yang, but he's so ungodly RAW from a technical standpoint (and what technique he does have is just plain horrible) that he's a likely liability as even a nickel or dime-back and particularly as a starting safety for likely at least 1.5 seasons. We've spent enough 1st and 2nd round picks on special teamers with the "potential" to become starters someday down the line. The amount of gap between Gilmore's ceiling and his floor is frightening - like Jimmy Williams (I think that was the VT defensive back everyone was so gaga about about 5+ years ago that just busted on monumental levels as a pro) kind of frightening gap. Far too risky for the kind of investment likely necessary to acquire.
     
  10. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    How about Jason Pierre Paul? Heck, look at Clay Mathews. Not saying that he's like those guys, but there's similar upside/downside ratio for these guys IMO.
     
  11. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Brockers is a bad football player, a subpar athlete (5.36 40 time, and 19 reps) and yet somehow he's tricked smart men like Mike Mayock into thinking he's a 1st round talent....although to his credit Mayock has him lower than most.

    I don't get it at all.:speechless:
     
  12. Whooki Mane

    Whooki Mane BoltTalker

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    wouldnt be too excited about dre kirkpatrick as our first round pick like a lot of people on these forums... unless maybe we threw 20 lbs on him and threw him at safety :sneaky:
     
  13. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    With JPP, he did have more than a single season of production - not the elite production that he put up when George Selvie decided to turn in a clunker as a senior, but it was still respectable totals - so there was a visible progression that showed that as his development furthered so did his production. Yes, there was a risk but he also had/has an IMMENSELY higher ceiling in terms of athleticism than Mercilus has.

    And I just hate when anyone uses Clay Matthews as the standard for any example. If ever there was a case for being the exception not the rule it's Matthews. The guy was legitimately - in almost all circles - graded a 2nd round pick. Ted Thompson and Kevin Greene fell in love with the guy and made a move for him in the late 1st. The main reason why Clay's stock was believed to have hit a glass ceiling was because there was so little tape available on him due to him being effectively the 5th wheel in that USC corps. He didn't see the field as much because Maualuga was, more times than not, a liability in coverage, which kept Cushing from ever playing the LEO, and Clay was never used much else except at the LEO position. It's like the Joker position in TCU's/TA&M's defenses, the Bandit position in another collegiate program's defense (the name of the program is escaping me, though I think Ohio State called it that position-name as well when they used 3-4 Over looks)... it's primarily an undersized DE lining up wide of the OT's outside shoulder and primarily trying to use his burst and speed to disrupt the backfield and QB - you rarely get to see much in the way of multiple dimensions from the player. And lack of versatility typically keeps you from 1st round status.

    In short, I really don't see that much upside in Mercilus. Has he reached his ceiling yet? No. But that doesn't make his ceiling particularly high either. He's could end up being a fair complementary piece (that's why I draw the comparisons to Anthony "Almost" Spencer - because he's one of those guys who may end up making a career out of almost having the sack as a pro, but for the QB's quick release or someone else beating him to the play), but he's not someone with the kind of upside that I can see offensive coordinators having to go out of their way to gameplan to make sure he's accounted for at all times - he's the kind of guy that they'll possibly adjust someone to chip if he's having a particularly good day, but largely they'll just single-block assignment and figure that with his late get-off that plus a chop-blocking RB/FB should be enough to keep their QB clean long enough to get the pass off.
     
  14. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Part of it is that the guy had a bad combine... and a stupid combine at that. Someone got in his head and convinced him that it was better to show up and show that he could carry a ton of extra weight and that that would impress scouts and bolster his stock. Thing is, he doesn't have the elite kind of athleticism that he can just pack on that extra weight in a short period of time and have it negligibly affect his performance in measured and timed drills. The added weight did him more harm than good and did him worse than just showing up at sub-300 (since anyone who drafted him would know full well that he was a 20/21 year old redshirt-sophomore who was still growing into his frame - the guy came to LSU as a 250 LB... at the combine he was more than 50 pounds heavier than that) and turning in better times/measurements because he was lighter.

    I repeat, he doesn't have elite athleticism, but he's got better athleticism than showed at the combine - and that was demonstrated at his Pro Day... where he came in lighter but still above 300 and performed much better. Honestly, long-term I see him more as a Terrance Knighton, Red Bryant kind of player than a Tommie Harris or god forbid Richard Seymour kind of player; really Brockers is Brandon Thompson with a plus frame. It really depends on what teams are looking for most immediately out of the DT prospects they're scouting in this class - there is no perfectly well-rounded prospect (the closest are probably Fletcher Cox and Jerel Worthy, but Worthy doesn't have the ceiling of the rest of them). They all have their flaws and they all have their strengths. In some cases the strength is unrealized upside far more than others (Brockers isn't unlike Poe in this respect - however I'd take Brockers over Poe in general because he's at least shown a better hunger for the game and willingness to put in the time/effort to improve which Poe hasn't; he also doesn't quit on plays which Poe has). From a pure pass-rushing perspective, guys like Reyes and Still offer much more, but that comes at the cost of having to re-tool their pad-level as like most collegiate pass-rushing DT's they tend to play too high, thus giving up leverage and making them considerably less effective in run-defense. It's a sort of pick which poison you think you're able to develop the tolerance for or able to weed out the harmful element from the soonest.
     
  15. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    You may be right about the athleticism part, but I watched enough of his film where it won't change my opinion. In the 3rd or 4th as one of those 2-gap guys we were talking about in the other thread....maybe....but he's going to be incredibly over drafted by someone.
     
  16. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    You do realize we were talking about Poe/Almost all upside type players, right, not Mercilus, but i LOVE the comparison, i'm gonna start using that one.

    You just asked for examples of players that didn't really produce in college, but have had success in the NFL.
     

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