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Poll: If the draft were tomorrow

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by Bruce Daniel, Feb 10, 2016.

?

Who ya got?

  1. Joey Bosa

    6 vote(s)
    30.0%
  2. Jalen Ramsey

    9 vote(s)
    45.0%
  3. Deforest Buckner

    1 vote(s)
    5.0%
  4. Jared Goff

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Carson Wentz

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Jaylon Smith

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Ronnie Stanley

    1 vote(s)
    5.0%
  8. A'Shawn Robinson

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Myles Jack

    1 vote(s)
    5.0%
  10. Other

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
  1. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    Just a little fun to gauge where everyone is at right now. If the draft were tomorrow, and assuming Tunsil is off the board....
     
  2. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    I'm interested in those who voted, who they voted for and why............................

    Personally I chose Ramsey and I think I'd choose him even if Tunsil were still available. IMO Ramsey may be the best football player in this draft, he is the type of player that Pagano can throw all over the field and use as a chess piece to create mismatches. He's a winner and a leader, He also fits the "build" as a player who loves to play the game. Getting Ramsey in the first will still get us a highly touted "impact player like Adolphus Washington, Sheldon Day, Chris Jones

    I'd be happy with any of Ramsey, Bosa, Tunsil or Buckner but like this post says "if we were picking tomorrow, I'd go Ramsey.
     
  3. Bleeding Lightning Bolts

    Bleeding Lightning Bolts BoltTalker

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    might depend on who we pick up in FA
     
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  4. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Yes and no, the hypothetical is, if the draft were tomorrow, who would you like the bolts to get at 3.

    Outside of Wilkerson, I don't believe there is one FA signing we could make that would stop us from taking the best DB , DE, or LT this year. And definitely not a single player on this roster that should prevent us from either.
     
  5. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    I took Myles Jack seeing as I couldn't go with a trade down and Stanley.

    If Healthy this can be young and hopefully Elite group of Linebackers.
     
  6. Moses

    Moses Can You Stand The Rain?

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    Assuming we stay at number 3, I believe Ramsey is the best player available.

    Best case scenario is we trade down a few slots to get an extra pick or two then draft some beef for the line.
     
  7. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    I chose Ramsey as well because I believe he's BPA, although I have Bosa right there with him. I do think there's some merit as to Bosa's fit in our scheme, although I feel we run enough 4 lineman sets that I'd be happy if he was the choice as well. I think at the #3 pick you're looking for an impact player. I think Bosa will give us 10-12 sacks a year and play sound assignment football, I think Ramsey can be a top notch CB/S and match up with teams #1 WR's. I don't think you lose either way. I think I lean Ramsey because I'm willing to gamble more on his raw athletic gifts than I am Bosa. But I'm splitting hairs there because I like em both.
     
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  8. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    Regarding to Bosa, on Paper it says he's 275, I think its possible once he gets into an NFL weight room to tack on another 5-10 lbs without subtracting any burst or speed. It would put him right around Chandler Jones/ JJ Watt weight. I also agree we're more so in 4 man fronts (and even more so when we had Freeny) I don't think the coaches and F.O. are idiots, they'll play to their players strengths especially if we took Bosa at 3
     
  9. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I continue to disagree with those preferring Bosa and Ramsey.

    Our scheme is wrong for Bosa and he absolutely is not a 3-4 DE as some have suggested. He is not going to gain 10 pounds (making him still 5 pounds lighter than small 3-4 DEs like Watt) and suddenly be J.J. Watt. If we were to take him and play him at 3-4 DE, we would complete the journey Telesco has put us on over the past 3 years and actually finally clinch being the worst run defense in the NFL (after going 27th, 29th and 30th in YPC against in the Telesco clusterflop era).

    Bosa's value does not hold as an OLB either. I think he will test as neither fast nor quick, but will wait for the combine to confirm that. He's a great pick if you don't mind taking a player worse than Attaochu at OLB at #3 overall.

    I would never take a top safety over a top CB. There is a reason why no safety has been taken with a top 3 pick in 25 years. I would sooner take Hargreaves or Alexander and I wouldn't take either of them in the top 3 either. I do not think Ramsey possesses either elite speed or coverage ability, so I have no idea why anyone would consider taking him at #3 overall.

    Yes, he has ball some ball skills, but not elite speed and not elite coverage ability means he will give up catches as opponents will get open against him. That will more than offset the ball skills, making Ramsey a solid prospect, but not a top 3 value.

    With no legitimate top end value in this entire draft, I chose Stanley in this poll question, but just as easily could have gone with A'Shawn Robinson. With no elite top end talent and nothing much separating the top players, it makes sense to fill our biggest team needs as the tie breaker between basically equal players that play different positions.
     
  10. MasterOfPuppets

    MasterOfPuppets Charger fan since 1979

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    I hear you but part of me thinks that you take the best talent (which a lot of people think is Bosa) and find a way to use him correctly
     
  11. Moses

    Moses Can You Stand The Rain?

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    There is some logic here, but if the place we'd want to use Bosa is 4-3 DE. ask yourself 2 more questions - is it worth it to change the entire defense just to use Bosa as such? Also, do you have the personnel to effectively run a 4-3? If the answer is no to either of those questions, then the stakes are probably too high to take him.

    Chaincrusher - you mention above that you don't think Ramsey is going to run fast at the combine. For me personally, I think he's gonna blow up at the combine, I like his acceleration when I watch him, wasn't he a track athlete too?
     
  12. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    We line up in a true 3-4 stance probably 25-30% on snaps. If they do take Bosa, it'll be because they believe they'll get the most out of him in their system. He is versatile enough to line up all over. But no one should be saying he's J Watt, that not fair to Bosa.

    Ramsey did a little training in track and field, finished fourth in the nation indoors with 26' and 14th outdoors with 24
    He also ran 100m at 10.61 seconds, Usain Bolt in comparison ran 100m at 9.58, so saying he's not fast or explosive is laughable
     
  13. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    One of the reasons why we play fewer snaps in a 3-4 than would be ideal is because we lack good 3-4 personnel at several positions. We have yet another chance this offseason to fix that problem.

    Bosa fits a 4-3 system better than a 3-4, but I do not see him as being an explosive edge rusher at all, which I believe will limit him somewhat in any system. He may be able to excel at setting the edge, but we do not need to use the #3 overall pick to get a somewhat better (albeit somewhat slower) pass rushing version of Jarret Johnson.

    Regarding Ramsey, 10.61 in the 100m is not elite NFL speed. Even if the 100m were indicative of NFL speed, Willie Gault ran 10.72 in the 100m--at age 45.

    Kolby Listenbee has a wind aided 10.04. That, by contrast, is an example of elite NFL 100m speed.

    Certainly Ramsey will be faster than the average NFL player, which is what we would expect from any safety, but his projected 40 yard dash time is only 4.49. That is good speed for a safety, but not elite speed by any stretch of the imagination. It is marginally slower than Weddle, for example.

    So my point is simply that other than what I expect to be fabulous leaping ability and strong ball skills, what is the big deal about a secondary player that lacks elite speed and lacks elite coverage ability? I would rather have a CB with strong coverage skills like Hargreaves or Alexander any day and they aren't among my top choices for the #3 pick either.
     
  14. Moses

    Moses Can You Stand The Rain?

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    His actual 40 time will be significantly better than 4.49 in my opinion. I think he will be faster than both Hargreaves & Alexander, but that's just my opinion from watching him.

    We keep talking about the value in taking a safety at number 3, but let's just take a step back for a second - if we take the best player available at our slot, and he fits a need, surely' we've done well right? Are we not getting too cught up in the concept of value rather than looking for best player available.
     
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  15. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    I agree. I think at #3 you take the highest rated guy on your board and move on. If it's Ramsey then he's the choice imo. I think if Tunsil is gone, then it really comes down to Ramsey, Bosa and Buckner. I think those guys along with Jack and Jaylon Smith are in the next five in some order. I think it's a shame with the injuries to Jack and Smith because those guys would be in serious consideration for me if not for the injuries. Like I said before, there is some merit to Bosa not fitting what we do and that leaves Ramsey vs. Buckner. Quite frankly, I have Ramsey ranked ahead of Buckner so that would be my choice. But I wouldn't be pissed with any of those guys. I think we're in a pretty good spot to get a good football player either way we go
     
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  16. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    My point is that his traits make him not the BPA at #3.

    My view is that measurables/combine usually are not going to tell which players to take with early draft picks, but they often do provide an indication of which players not to take with those picks.

    In this case, if the projections/profiles are correct, Ramsey will run a 40 yard dash time that is above average for a safety, but that would only be average for a CB. He will show comparatively weak hip fluidity (not uncommon at all for taller secondary players), especially when compared to CBs. His leaping will be outstanding and he will show that he has good ball skills.

    The above profile makes Ramsey a player that is certainly capable of making big plays, but also a player that is not a shutdown cover guy. Such a player is not as valuable, in my view, as a shutdown cover guy. I would always take the shutdown cover guy first in a draft. That is why I would take Alexander or Hargreaves over Ramsey.

    And to be clear, I do not think either Hargreaves or Alexander is as good as Verrett, who we took at #25. Now, Verrett may have fallen some due to size/health concerns and the 2014 draft was stronger than this year's draft, but I think that reference does help to put Ramsey into some perspective.

    That said, if it is my pick, I am not taking Ramsey until at least the middle of the first round in this year's draft. In a stronger draft class, he could even fall to the early second round.
     
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  17. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Smith is too injured to take at #3. I would want to know more about Jack's condition, but if he is able to show well at either the combine or his pro day, I would consider him before either Ramsey or Buckner as he would be an immediate upgrade to Te'o and a nice complement to Perryman.

    Buckner is a gamble in my view. If he can play stout enough, he does have some play making ability. But I think that is a pretty big "if".

    Ramsey is a safer pick, but I don't like the value at all at #3. I would be fine with DeAndre Houston-Carson later in the draft as a player with similar size/projected speed as Ramsey.

    Besides, Telesco can't possibly create his own mess and then burn the team's first round pick trying to fix it two years in a row. I mean not even Telesco could be that inept as a GM.

    I still think a trade back and securing extra picks would be the best option, but that is easier said than done as we would need to find a trading partner. In the absence of a trade back, my preference continues to be that we bite the bullet and improve the DL in round 1 with either Robinson or Billings or we take Ronnie Stanley and upgrade at OT. I think these are safe players at positions of huge need.

    I realize the players that I am suggesting are not the sexy play maker types, but I think they are exactly the kind of players we need to take again and again in order to be able to fix lines that have been all but ignored for far too long and to finally be able to win the battle of the trenches.
     
  18. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    The problem here is clear, you're projecting Ramsey as a CB, and everyone who's talking about him as a top 5 pick is talking about him as a Saftey.

    I personally think he is capable of being that Eric Berry type player, maybe even better. Even as a CB he projects as a mid 1st round pick (there we agree), but his best trait on film is actually his tackling ability and run support. You can tell he understands angles, and has the ability to lay the wood on occasion. As well as come down with INTs and FFs.

    He's the guy you draft simply to stick on Rob Gronkowski. The only question is position value, keeping in mind he isn't a bad CB either.
     
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  19. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    I hear what you're saying about the lines, I really do. And you might be able to talk me into a Ronnie Stanley, even though I don't think he's BPA there, positional value could warrant that selection. Robinson and Billings only in a trade back scenario.
    I think you need a blend of "sexy playmaker types" and guys in the trenches though. I think Denver was roughly in our spot back in 2011, when they took Von Miller 2nd overall. If you remember their DLine was terrible back then and everyone assumed they'd select Marcel Dareus to help the trenches. 5 years later, I'd say they made the right choice. I would assume at 3 we're trying to get a player that can change the game via scoring touchdowns, producing sacks or creating turnovers. I think that points to Ramsey, Bosa or possibly Buckner (maybe Stanley to protect Rivers).
    I think everyone here is trying to fix this team in one offseason. It's not gonna happen. Even with an excellent draft, rookies are rookies. We need talent up and down this roster, that's why I think we should stay within ourselves and take the most talented BPA available
     
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  20. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    For me it's not much of a question. If Tunsil is there I would take him. My guess as of right now is that he won't be. IMO even if Tennessee doesn't take him, with all the holes the Browns need to fill it's not out of the realm of possibility that they move out of #2 to acquire more picks, and move down to acquire one. QB at #2 isn't a forgone conclusion, especially if someone offers them a sweetheart deal.

    I went with Ramsey because I believe Tunsil will be gone. The more tape I watch on Ramsey the more I love the guy. He just has the "it" factor as a playmaker which is something this defense lacks sorely. For me, I hear to many times guys getting caught up in strictly measureables. This guy doesn't jump high enough, his hands are to small, 40 time is too slow etc.....Sometimes a guys raw ability and heart superceeds a lot of that.
     
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  21. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    My point was pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting--I was saying Ramsey lacks the tools of a top CB (that is, I was projecting him as "not an NFL CB"), making him not worth taking at #3 overall. I always thought he had the potential to be a good NFL FS, though.

    That said, I think Ramsey gave a slightly better overall workout than I expected at the combine. I was very impressed with his 40 time and his hip turn was not as bad as I thought it was going to be. The only area of weakness that surprised me was that Ramsey's ball skills were not all that impressive--I would say average overall, especially since he could not even locate the ball in one drill (which was truly awful, but thankfully only one drill).

    After the combine, I am not sure I really think that anyone is worthy of the #3 overall pick, much less #2 or #1. I am convinced that this is the weakest draft class that I can recall in years, a situation which begs for a trade back, but also may limit the interest of any team that might consider trading up. (The QBs were not all that impressive throwing the ball although Wentz was more athletic than I thought he was going to be, so I don't know why anyone would trade up into the top 3 to take either QB.)

    After the combine, I see no difference of significance between the kind of player we could get at #3 versus what we could get at say #12-#15, just a complete absence of what some have referred to as "blue chip" talent.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2016
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  22. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Ramsey was faster than I thought he was going to be at the combine.

    I think we can remove Bosa from consideration at #3 after the combine. I do feel somewhat vindicated with respect to my previous statement that I would take Ogbah over Bosa straight up for our defense. While Bosa disappointed at the combine, Ogbah was faster and quicker than I thought he was going to be, showing that he has the athleticism to go with his elite sack production and routinely clutch play.

    For me, Ogbah would be an awfully difficult pass at #35 in this year's draft even with OLB not being our greatest area of need.
     
  23. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    This is far from the worst draft in recent memory. 2013 Fisher-Joeckel-Jordan at the top was terrible and 2005 Alex Smith-Ronnie Brown at the top was bad too. There's a few blue chips in my opinion (Tunsil/Ramsey/Jack), I'd argue for Ezekial Elliott as well. The problem is S/CB, LB and RB aren't what you really want to see as your best options in the top five-ten.
    I agree, Bosa is out after the combine. I still think he's a top ten guy, but I can't argue for him at 3 anymore.
    I really can't argue with the trade back. I like Ramsey but there are safeties in the 2nd or possibly 3rd I'd be happy with as well. And I just don't see a tremendous gap between say Buckner-Reed-Robinson-Rankins-Billings...etc.
     
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  24. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    There we go, Bitter Betty at it again. You were probably the only one surprised by Ramsey's workout today, I certainly wasn't. He's been touted as a supreme athlete for months.

    I think you need to get over the fact that there isn't an obvious Calvin Johnson or Von Miller type prospect in this draft, and just accept that we're going to get one of the 3 best prospects in it. If you go back and look at the last 5 drafts (2011 representing the pinnacle, and 2013 being an utter **** pit) I think this one will prove about average. I do believe Tunsil and Ramsey are legit "blue chips" regardless of what year we're talking about, and Buckner is a slight step off.
     
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  25. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    It goes without say, FA will likely play a huge factor in our number 3 pick, aside from the obvious FA targets Barksdale, Gates, Robinson, and Green = around 20 million (+/-) total. I see one Big FA push at DL or FS then some trickle not sure which way they're leaning , heck they may even have him in house if they see a Chris Watt experiment in Mager.

    Im on the fence on this one, part of me says Ramsey while the other half says Buckner.........................why can't we just get both.

    If it were tomorrow, today I'm going to say Buckner. Take advantage of the beef but tomorrow I'll say Ramsey
     
  26. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Well, I wouldn't get too carried away with the thought of me being surprised in a positive way by Ramsey's workout.

    The biggest surprise of Ramsey's workout was a negative one--Ramsey's ball skills are average at best.

    Weren't you and some others in this thread talking about Ramsey being a playmaker and coming down with INTs? He had a whopping 3 INTs in 3 seasons at FSU and his ball skills were not "all that" in the drills today. In fact, he looked horrible when he struggled to locate the ball in one drill designed to test his ability to look for and catch the ball when the ball is already in the air.

    If you mean running and jumping, especially jumping, then yes, Ramsey is a "supreme athlete". If you mean he has fluid hips and can lock down receivers, then no, he is not a supreme athlete. In fact, he has "safety hips", not CB hips. You could really see this when NFLN ran footage of Patrick Peterson while comparing Ramsey to him. Peterson has solid (but not elite like Verrett) NFL CB hip fluidity. Ramsey, while not entirely stiff hipped, lacks the level of hip fluidity that Peterson has.

    I think this year's draft class is weaker than the 2013 draft class and I also disagree with the notion that there are any clear "blue chip" players in this year's draft class. I am not sold on Tunsil. I am not so quick to dismiss Ramsey's lack of proven ball skills and lack of proven coverage skills as factors not relevant to when he should be drafted.

    In my view, it is the very weakness at the top of this year's draft class that will make it difficult for us to trade out of #3.
     
  27. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I disagree with pretty much everything you've said here, but that's par for the course.

    I've watched all the tape I can find on the guy, and I'm just not that worried about his perceived lack of fluidity. He's not Jason Verrett (who I railed for months should have been a top 10 pick) but I challenge you to find any CB over 6'0 tall who does move like Jason Verrett. Quickness is just one of those things you sacrifice with height, even Richard Sherman gives space to smaller WRs at times, but he's still invaluable against the Larry Fitzgerald's of the world.

    I'd put Ramsey at S (which one is irrelevant), and use him like the Packers used Charles Woodson in his prime. As a CB, S, OLB, ILB as needed.

    Trading out is always tough, ALWAYS, that's why it amuses me when people say "deeeerp I wish Telesco would trade back and collect draft picks deeeeeerp." There has to be a player worth trading for, and a player the team trading back is willing to risk passing on, and the price for the trade has to be right for both teams.

    I can't imagine a situation where the Browns wouldn't need a QB at 2, but if somehow they pass on Goff, I can see us fielding a ton of calls. I think there is a legitimate chance the Cowboys are interested in a QB of the future. Romo is 36 now, and hasn't finished a season in the last 3 years.
     
  28. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Everyone knows that it is difficult to trade back. But that does not mean that a trade back is not the best approach and that it should not be pursued.

    And one thing that you are undervaluing is the added value of a trade back in this year's draft when there is next to no difference in the quality if player to be had at #3 versus, say, #15.

    The whole point of why we should leap to do the trade with the Rams referenced in the other thread if it were available is because there is no Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald or other obvious blue chip player for us to take so it would cost us nothing or next to nothing to do it and we would get two extra second round picks in the process--total no-brainer even if it is short on our end of the points value chart.

    As for Ramsey, I am not the only one that can see that Ramsey has some hip stiffness and only has average ball skills. Todd McShay just mentioned the exact same two criticisms when writing about Ramsey in an ESPN Insider article that I read this morning.

    I understand that you want him to be a dynamic playmaker like Peterson or Woodson, but Ramsey does not mirror as well as either Peterson or Woodson (because his hips are stiffer than the hips of either of those two players) and by far lacks the elite ball skills for a secondary player demonstrated by both Woodson and Peterson well before either was ever drafted.

    Ramsey runs well, has length and leaps incredibly well, but his lack of coverage skills and lack of ball skills make him unworthy of the #3 overall pick.

    I think it will be much more difficult for us to trade out of #3 than many think. I do not see Dallas 1) wanting to use their first round pick on a QB as they are in win now mode with the return of their elite QB with his back as healthy as it has been in a decade and a plate reinforced left collar bone, or 2) concluding that there is a franchise QB in this draft.

    The reports of Romo's demise are greatly exaggerated as he played 62 of the 64 games in the four seasons before last year. This will be his 36 year old season, so he should have several seasons left (at least 3-4) and the Cowboys were a bad rule away from being the NFCCG in 2014. 2015 was an injury filled anomaly of a season not reflective of how close the Cowboys actually are to winning it all.

    If the Cowboys are going to add a QB, I would not be surprised to see them add a backup QB named Manziel, who could get the team the wins their awful reserve QBs could not get in 2015 should that need resurface in 2016.

    It wouldn't shock me at all to see the Cowboys take an Ohio State player at #4, but not the one that people have been discussing as a top 5 pick (even though they probably also need help at DE). I think they could easily decide that Ezekiel Elliott would look awfully good behind their elite OL (which would be another way to reduce Romo's exposure to injury plus win at the same time).
     
  29. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    It's not difficult to trade back if you're realistic with the compensation. The Raiders traded out of 3 back to 12 in 2013 (remember the draft you think was so sweet lol) for an additional 2nd rounder. Quite a bit less than the RGIII haul. But credit the Raiders for realizing the draft class sucked and took what they could get.
     
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  30. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    +3,556
    1. No ****, captain obvious.

    2. I didn't say we shouldn't trade back, I never came remotely close to suggesting it. I said I'm tired of fans like yourself who think they're the only ones who know how to approach a draft. I have no doubt that if we don't trade back, you'll be here the next day claiming Telesco never tried, just like you did with Weddle.

    3. You realize the thread regarding a trade with the Rams is theoretical, yes? I ask because I hope that your grip on reality isn't so loose that you're taking message board threads as fact.

    4. Yeah we covered Ramsey, I'm not swayed by your opinion.

    5. We covered Romo too. But since you mentioned Todd McShay, he was on ESPN Radio on Monday. When asked if the Cowboys might consider Goff or Wentz he said, and I quote..."they have to be." For what it's worth.

    6. So you think the Cowboys will sign an immature spoiled rich kid with alcohol problems and call it good? Maybe. Maybe not.
     

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