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Question about Chargers offensive playbook and so on...

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by sd-local, Jul 18, 2007.

  1. sd-local

    sd-local BoltTalker

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    Alright, so we all know that the chargers have been running Norv's offense since he left as the offensive coordinator but something was bugging me today...

    Do you guys think that although the system was Norv's, that Cam put in the gadget plays that we ran? Just curious...

    I don't remember to many trick plays from Norv's era, since Cam was coordinator LT threw what, 8 td passes? there was fumbleruski, there was the occasional option play on fourth down and so on.

    I'm not advocating Cam, I actually disliked his playcalling often (throw to Neal in the flat five times a game), I was just curious if we should look forward to seeing more game changing gadget plays with Norv and Shelmon the youngster or if that was more of a Cam thing...
     
  2. Thumper

    Thumper WHS

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    Yeah, Cam did add few wrinkles to Norv's offense. Was it Norv that used to love to call all those reverses when he was the OC here?
     
  3. Ride The Lightning

    Ride The Lightning Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.

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    Yes, and no. It was Cam calling plays, but Marty was was also dictating the schemes, and putting their own interpetation on Norv's playbook.

    Cam was the one who went reverse crazy when we had Timmy in 02 and 03.
     
  4. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Hard to tell, you cant run the same offense for 20+ years without adding somethng new.

    Passes to LoNeal in the flat, I have no problems with them because he was the man the D usually did not cover, and the play while not gainin a lot of yardage usually made the D hesitant to attack any one person or spot. That is what the play (IMO) was designed for, not to be a game breaker or the big score, but to make the D realize that we could hit them 8 different ways and they had to pick their poison.
     
  5. Ride The Lightning

    Ride The Lightning Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.

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    conc, you gotta cut down the size of that sig pic. there's parts of your post i cant even see
     
  6. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Geta bigger monitor!:yes:

    I will work on it tonight, your biatching biatch....:lol:
     
  7. Steve

    Steve BoltTalker

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    Almost every team in the NFL has all those plays availble. You can go down to the library and get a book that has a bunch of trick plays in it. Some coaches like to call them, other do not. Cam was a guy who liked to beat the other team to the punch and call his first. Once you use your trick play, everyone on both sides of both teams is much more aware of them. They are far less likely to work. That being said, the coaching books are also full of people who say that, so some people like to pull the trick plays out a little more and catch people off guard.

    We have gotten to the point where I don't think Norv would have much to fear from calling them. When he was here before, there was little margin for error. mess up a trick play and there was a good chance it would have killed our drive. Now, we have the kind of weapons that if a big play blows up against us, I don't think it means much. The flip side of that is you could argue that we don't need to call the trick plays anymore either.

    If our WR have developed to the point where they are ready to take their game(s) to the next level, we will likely have the top offense in terms of yards, TD's and every other measure of efficiency that there is. The only thing that would seem to hold us back is if the D starts getting so many turnovers and 3 and outs, we are always playing on a short field and we are scoring TD's after 30 yards.
     
  8. LittleTrain

    LittleTrain BoltTalker

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    Letting teams "pick their poison" with a pass to LoNeal in the flats is akin to letting them pick their poison and attempt to overdose on aspirin.

    We shouldn't let that be one of the options for poison. Put someone out there that can do something with it after they catch it, or throw it to one of the other 5 options.

    If anything Norv has a rep as being more conservative than Cam/Marty. Hopefully he knows in the NFL today you can't do it 5 yards at a time and expect to win consistently.
     
  9. Thread_Killer

    Thread_Killer Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think Cam overdid it on the gadget plays. We didn’t run that many, it’s just that those plays stand out more than most.

    IMO we’ll have more “game changing” plays just running our basic offense, because Philip Rivers will see the field better, and have more trust in his receivers. This will result in more touchdowns from our WR’s, less rushing TD’s for LT. We will be very balanced and impossible to stop.
     
  10. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    I disagree with the last. Norv is known for stretching the field, and long plays. I equate conservative to run and short passess. That is not wholey Norvs offensive sceme IMO.

    The point is LoNeal is a release valve to cause the D to back off, that is what it did, and did well IMO.
     
  11. LittleTrain

    LittleTrain BoltTalker

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    I don't know where Norv is known for that, but I hope you are right. Dallas (his one positive stop on his resume) actually had their best year offensively the year AFTER he left. Norv never scored over 30 more than 4 times in the regular season in Dallas (including defensive scores), they did it 6 times the year after he left and scored more points than any year Norv was OC. Last year we did it SEVEN times and FOUR of those over 40....as many times as Norv went over 30 in the regular season with that loaded Dallas team.

    I get the point of a release valve. It doesn't have to be LoNeal though. If you want "throw it to the flats" to be something the defense is forced to cover, send someone with some potential out there. Catching the ball and running with it is just not his strong suit. If I'm a defense, I let you throw that all day. The risk isn't worth the reward.
     
  12. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    I dont know, Norv is very well respected for his offensive schemes. Guess time will tell which one of us is correct.

    On LoNeal, if it works dont fix it is all I have to say.
     
  13. Steve

    Steve BoltTalker

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    Norv is pretty vocal about prefering to throw the ball down the field. He was hired by the Raiders, which should tell you exactly where he stands on the deep passing issue. The catch has been that he has not had the WR or OL to do that as much as he would like. He really likes to throw deep off of play action, on early downs, but he is patient enough to let the running game set up the D before he calls it.

    The problem with building your passing game around play action passing is that 2 of you receivers are stuck in the backfield and have a long way to go to get into the pattern. You can't attack a D with only 3 receivers going out. Also, if the D has a bunch of guys up tight playing run D, your QB is going to get hit. That is what ended Stan's career too early, all the extra hits. So we need to mix in play action and the other stuff.

    Norv has a lot more depth then anywhere else he has ever coached. He is lacking a great WR, so he may be handicapped a little in that regard, but remember, he came into the NFL as a WR coach. I think he will help to bring them along pretty quickly. He has also made guys Brad Johnson look good depsite not having good WR around them.

    Dumpoff passes are not designed plays. They are consolation prizes. If the choice is between throwing the ball away and getting nothing or dumping it off to a guy like Neal (or LT) to get 5 yards, most of us will take the 5 yards. But the QB has already gone through his progression, or is just trying to save the play. But if you want to make a play that could do something, you want to send the receivers to go out and go down field.

    I also like the idea of the occasional dump off to LT. He is not going to take a big hit, and it gives him the ball in space. Chances are he won't break it, but he could and lets face it, getting the ball to LT a lot is never a bad idea.

    Neal is not athletic enough to help there. He just can't adjust to the ball downfield. But now that we have Manu and Chandler, we have chances to make some extra plays. I don't have any illusions as them as great downfield play makers, but they can get far enough downfield to hurt a team that chooses to ignore them, so they have to be accounted for, which means someone else will have less attention. The guy I used to like was Eric Sievers. He used to get us 50 catches a season in the period where Winslow was catching 80+. No one was ever scared of him, but he averaged a bit over 10 yards a catch and he was a mismatch vs a S in the running game, or a LB in the passing game. He would catch his obligatory 4 catches a game, get some first downs on plays where he was the 4th option. Boring, but it helped Chandler, Winslow and Joiner make the big plays that won the games.

    Neal is still a big help and will be a starter for some time. but since he is almost exclusively a blocker, we need to mix in some of the other guys as they develop to give the O a little more firepower. There are not many D's in football who can matchup to us in their base defenses. If we can develop Chandler and Naanee into guys who are at least OK blockers, some poor LB is going to have to chase them around the field all day long. If they have to give them any help at all, now it becomes almost impossible to double Gates and VJ, plus give help vs the 2nd TE. That puts the D back on their heals and gives us a lot more space to work with. That is going to take the O to the next level.
     
  14. HeatMiser

    HeatMiser BoltTalker

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    The fumblerooski actually came from Wade (it was an old Bum Phillips favorite) and Cam installed it. I still can't believe Marty let Cam call it during a real game.

    Norv uses a lot of reverses and misdirection and Cam continued that trend when he took over although it seemed like he went to it less and less each season. The only other gadget type plays I remember Cam doing involved LT throwing passes, either to Brees or a TE/WR near the goal line. Cam was very good about mixing protections and sliding his linemen around, too.

    Let's all hope that Norv never calls a reverse to Neal!
     
  15. Buttmunch

    Buttmunch Well-Known Member

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    I love LoNeal so please don't think I'm a hater (Just spent $950 bucks for charity on authentic LT and LoNeal balls from the NFL).

    ........BUTTTTT......if the game is tight, I'd hate the thought of LoNeal out in the flat where just by instinct, he'd be more preoccupied with hitting the snot out of an incoming DB than covering up the ball. Not to say he's doing this intentionally, that's just how LoNeal plays in my opinion. He's a hitter first by instinct.

    I would duck and hide at times when they passed him the ball out in the flat. Much like we have an advantage because LoNeal is not usually being covered out in the flat, we're also at a disadvantage if someone gets the ball loose since there would be nothing but turf between the defender and our endzone.
     
  16. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    LoNeal got a few first downs on that swing out. So I dont see why we should avoid using him just because it doesnt look pretty.:icon_shrug:
     
  17. LittleTrain

    LittleTrain BoltTalker

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    Because you can use someone else in the same role, get the same five yards and also have the potential of much much more than LoNeal who is going to hit the first guy that comes his direction.
     
  18. Buttmunch

    Buttmunch Well-Known Member

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    Huh? I was talking about risking fumbles. We should let LoNeal what he does best. If we're up, then I agree with you....why not have a little fun.
     
  19. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    See here is where I am confused. I happen to remember LoNeal being used because the D was covering those players with the potential for more yardage tight for previous plays.

    Thus LoNeal was used to loosen said defense to allow those players with greater potential to get open. That is the strategy behind it, it works. You dont try and hit a home run every play, some times you have to set people up with the rope a dope.:yes:

    Same way Manu has been used.
     
  20. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    We risk fumbles on every play. Every player can be stripped, can lose their grip. To indicate we should not use LoNeal because he has a chance of fumbling doesnt hold water for me.:icon_shrug:
     
  21. HeatMiser

    HeatMiser BoltTalker

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    I haven't looked at the stats, but it seemed to me that Rivers used Neal as a receiver less than Brees did. I don't think there are pass plays called and designed to go to Neal as the primary read, but rather he is the last resort if all the other reads are covered. And he is usually wide open, so it is a safe throw. Rather than force a ball into a triple covered Gates (which was another Brees tendency) or just chuck it out of bounds, Neal offers the chance to generally pick up 3 yards or so. Rivers does a pretty good job with his reads, considering his experience level.
     
  22. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    There is only a few times that I think the play was intended to go to LoNeal from the get go. Very rarely does that happen, he is used as a release valve every now and again.
     
  23. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    Those outlets to LoNeal may not have gained a lot of yards, but such plays are not meant to eat large chunks of the field. Used just often enough, they create second and short or third and short downs without predictably pounding the ball. It gives the QB some flexibility in calling the next play. The the play can also be used to set a team up for something different to be sprung when they bite on the same formation or to beat a blitz. Functionally it's a running playing that opens quickly to the outside. It gives the defenses something else to think about and another player to account for-then there is the fact that Neal beats people up. It will often be the same lead guy doing the tackling, since there is likely to be only one guy at the point of attack when they throw to Neal. A reliable five or six yards that can turn into 10 or twelve with a botched tackle from time to time is like making sure you have parking meter change. Not having it can be a real pain in the *** when you need it. Then sometimes it's done just to save the QB's behind.
     
  24. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Good post, agree 100%
     
  25. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Great post, and I agree. Sometimes that play is called just to see how the defense will react to it. I don't have a problem with the occasional throw to Neal in the flat. What I don't like is when we throw a screen pass to Neal. He just does not have the quickness to make that play work.
     
  26. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    LoNeal took one 37? yards last year, I know it was close to that. They are designed plays and it's one way to cool off an aggressive defense. Sure, it's also that safety valve option for the QB if everything else is shut down or in casr of the all out blitz.

    I think LoNeal got better at it as the year wore on and I'm sure it brought some fun back in to his game, seeing how he is a human battering ram.:bolt: :icon_toast:
     
  27. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    Neal is more than likely going to be the only guy available to dump off to. That's part of the job description for guy like Neal. The dump is not a designed play, since the defense dictates the need for it if they penetrate too quick. The designed flare passes normally go to LT or the Hback or a receiver.
     
  28. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    Yeah, it's kind of like bringing one of the Budweiser team to the race track.
     
  29. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    Keep it the same, it's a real Raiduds killer.:bolt:
     

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