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Rivers

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Ikeman83, Oct 9, 2012.

  1. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    I love Rivers' competitiveness. I was there for the comeback win versus the Giants in 09? & saw the magic.

    Since then? I can't deny what 909 is saying as far as feeling that Rivers doesn't come through in the clutch the way he once did. Would I take everyone on his list over Rivers? Hell no - a few, but not all, & the few mainly because they're more mobile & can extend plays better than Rivers. They would all be the younger, more mobile guys - Rodgers & Ryan for starters, RGIII with a couple more years under his belt. A few others could be just as good, but not enough better to warrant a change - Flacco, Cutler ON PHYSICAL SKILLS ALONE, maybe She-li although I'd probably drop the team like a hot potato if that ever happened.

    PR has made some bone-headed plays the last couple of years, plays where he should have thrown the ball away rather than risk a turnover. Debate the reasons all you like, but the turnover #s are there for all to see.

    Not sure just when someone had to become a player or expert to post an opinion. If that's the new criteria we'd better just fold this tent & go home.
     
  2. Ikeman83

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    I think that what's happened since 2009 is that we've had a schism between the evolution that Norv's offensive plays have undergone and the evolution that the roster has undergone. I think that the reason that we were so successful in the regular season in 2009 and have since had the wheels come off is that 2009 was the last time that our personnel matched our plays. We had a relatively decent line in 2009 that was incredibly strong on the left side, Gates was faster, making him more of a threat to the deep middle, and we had 2 large, downfield threats in Floyd and Jackson. Gates was able to dominate the safeties, and Floyd and Jackson were able to exploit the one-on-one match-ups they saw downfield on our long-developing deep plays.

    Our current situation doesn't see Gates getting bumped by a LB before being passed on to the SS with help from the FS. Gates is single covered, and while he gets open and creates separation using his body, he is no longer the home-run threat he once was, and thus no longer commands the kind of coverage that draws the safeties toward the middle of the field, which is why our receivers are seemingly always double-covered (which is also a reason for a lot of Rivers' picks). On the slightly-before-halftime interception (<<link) in the ATL game, Gates was single-covered by the safety, and whereas his speed used to make that a Charger first down, Gates on an out is going to be a pick every time.

    I think that what needs to happen is that Norv needs to realize that his players don't create match-up problems for anyone, and that our O-line can't buy Rivers enough time for long-developing plays. We have two fast receivers who are not large men, a featureback, and a slow-possession TE, as well as Floyd, who is as much a possession receiver as he is a number 1. We basically have the 2002 Chargers with a wildly better QB situation and a less elite RB. Until we get a new TE, this won't be a come-back offense, because there's no real threat on it once you eliminate Mathews as an option.
     
  3. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    To call out a professional QB and tell us his trophy case is empty (no Lombardi's) and list other QB's with a 10th of past proven body of work is foolish in the least and completely asinine at best. Asserting the image that one may be able to perform at a higher level than the present incumbent, deserves more than a personal "wish" list of assumed replacements under the same pretenses within the present working environment.

    I do not claim to be an expert in matters of professional football but I know enough to make a fair judgement that since 2009 this team has had many issues to overcome. One of the worst special teams, a paper lion defense along with injuries at epidemic proportion starting in the 2010 season in all phases of the team are most difficult for one position to overcome.

    River's has made some very poor decisions with the ball and is immobile. Many of the listed QB's that are supposedly better make the same said mistakes, but they play on teams not name the Chargers. I highly doubt any of them in the same circumstance would or could perform much better to bring forth a better outcome for the San Diego Chargers. JMHO.
     
  4. Chargerfn909

    Chargerfn909 High and tight kid, high and tight!

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    Captain check down Flacco's offense has more 20+ yard passing plays than any other team in the league..

    You are proving my point there, guy. I am saying we have PLENTY of talent, so where's Rivers clutch ability??

    lol your post did nothing but prove all my points, all the while you tried to belittle me. Derp?
     
  5. Chargerfn909

    Chargerfn909 High and tight kid, high and tight!

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    Buck, RG3 & Luck are ALREADY leading their team to 4th quarter game winning drives. SheEli has proven to have nothing but ice in his veins come the 4th quarter, he's honestly a beast when it comes crunch time. I hate the dude, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd feel WAY more confident with him putting together a game drive over Phil.

    I am still mind fuked on what the dude in my previous quote was saying. I never said A) We didn't have a legit 1, OR B) Rivers NEEDS a legit #1. I have said we have more talent than people give us credit for, yet it doesn't show come Sunday. -- I do think Norv is to blame for some of this, but he's certainly not throwing INT's in the red zone or on his own 20.
     
  6. Chargerfn909

    Chargerfn909 High and tight kid, high and tight!

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    Your reading comp needs some touching up. I NEVER said he had an "empty" trophy case, I said his trophy case hasn't proven him to be an elite qb.. IE no MVP/Super Bowl/SB MVP awards (not that this is the ONLY tell-tell sign of elite, but it's hard to deny someone of being so when they do have those accolades). Quite frankly, what the dude did in high school and college is irrelevant to his pro career.
     
  7. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Everyone has their own standards and yard sticks for QBs.

    The book hasnt been finished on Rivers. He may end up as an MVP he may not. Same same with Super Bowl regalia...

    Bottom line, he is who we have, he is better than anyone on our bench and he is a good QB.

    Also Lets not foreget, a lot of QBs have MVP titles, and Superbowl Regalia and are not elite QBs. Rotty has a ring while having the worst QB rating of a super bowl QB.
     
  8. Whooki Mane

    Whooki Mane BoltTalker

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    Philip gets frustrated and it effects his play too often.. He is not the same qb he was in the beginning oh his career in regards to how he used to be soo good at protecting the ball.. Usually this gets better with experience rivers seems to of gotten worse
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I reckon we're in the same boat as I noted he doesn't have a Lombardi. I'm calling BS that you "KNOW" any of your favorite QB's listed could do any better in San Diego than River's has the last two years.
     
  10. Ikeman83

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    We don't have the talent distribution that is needed for the current evolution of Norv's system when playing from behind.
     
  11. Ikeman83

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    I think he's grown impatient. He's protected the ball well but his defense never gave him the turnovers or stops that he deserved, and so he's trying to score on every drive.
     
  12. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I agree with 909 that the bolt's have the skill players other than the ones that do the pass blocking.
     
  13. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    Which leads to Ikeman's comment above about talent distribution. It seems to me that AJ has had a tendency to draft for "bling" vs. a strong foundation built from the inside out. He invested a little more in the defense the last couple of years & it's paying dividends. OL has to get more attention or Rivers is gonna get killed or regress further.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    More children = More turnovers

    I don't think anyone can dispute that fact. ;)
     
  15. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    I think it should be a law that NFL QB's & US presidents can't have a family.

    It adds to the fearlessness of the individual & limits the influence of having to consider others.

    :tup:
     
  16. Whooki Mane

    Whooki Mane BoltTalker

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    This year i believe the defense is more responsible for our 3 wins than the offense is though... even in our 2 loses rivers led the offense to 3 points against the falcons and against the saints we didnt score a single point for the final 28 minutes of the game, not saying the defense is great but I believe rivers has enough of a supporting cast to get it done this year and lead us to the playoffs without it having to be him taking us there on his back
     
  17. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    It's 100% relevant. You can't expect a guy to work miracles when your front office has done nothing to protect him. We fly by year in, and year out with practice squad Olineman. It's amazing that the best years of PR's career was when our OL had a healthy Marcus Mcneil, Pro Bowler Kris Dielman, Hardwick healthy, Goff.....I mean there is a reason that QB's excel when they have more time in the pocket. You just can't expect him to complete 70% of his throws, sitting on his *** 70% of the time. Rivers isn't mobile, therefore the front office needs to start addressing this line to give him time in the pocket. Otherwise, this will continue.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Ikeman83

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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    You're failing to understand the question. The question is not whether or not Rivers should be expected to work miracles. The question is whether or not the team can get to/win in the playoffs with Rivers turning the ball over at this rate. This is why it's completely irrelevant.
     
  19. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. Ikeman83

    Ikeman83 Werter Pöbel

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  21. Chargerfn909

    Chargerfn909 High and tight kid, high and tight!

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    Lol....tried to tell you guys. I honestly believe we'd have a better chance to win with Charlie.
     
  22. powayslugger

    powayslugger Feckless Slappy

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    He's well on his way with an additional 6 tonight. Face it he's crapped it up for us the last two seasons. We'll be lucky to see 7-9 at this rate.
     
  23. ChargerRay

    ChargerRay Producer/Host of BoltTalk Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Watching Rivers press conference now. At least he takes full responsibility and admits that all the INT's were on him and his bad throws. He clearly looks distraught but like typical Rivers finds a way to stay positive.
     
  24. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Two F'n weeks to see if this team can find some testicular fortitude.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  25. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    The positive is the October/November schedule.
    I don't see this team overtaking the donks--no way they'll beat them in Denver where it'll be noisy for PR and quiet for Manning. But wild card still a possibility. Especially with Ravens injury issues and Steelers cratering. Jets could be an issue. That's going to be a tough game in December.
     
  26. Holy_Bolt

    Holy_Bolt Well-Known Member

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    I would prefer that he throw a tantrum like us fans! Then I would know he really cares!
     
  27. Holy_Bolt

    Holy_Bolt Well-Known Member

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    I hope your right, but we are still likely to be one and done if we make it at all. We just don't have the talent across the board. We got some good pieces, but not the whole enchilada as they say.
     
  28. ChargerMike

    ChargerMike BoltBruthaFromAnuthMutha

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    I'm embarrassed to wear my $250 River jersey right now.....:oops:
     
  29. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Rivers gets plenty of blame, but this was a collective crapping of the bed by the offense. Our receivers (including Gates) showed little to not spine in fighting to establish their right to occupy space - the rules are designed now to give the tie to the offense but that doesn't mean squat when you allow yourself to be muscled off your route by a defender who then moves himself right into the position your QB is expecting you to be when he throws it on a deep ball or timing route.

    Norv - and Rivers - need to just quit trying to prove that we should be this great threat to "go deep" until we have a receiver on this team willing to actually compete for his route and in the air for the ball on those deep routes. Gates doesn't have the long speed to do that anymore, it seems. Meachem is the opposite, he's fast but he lets guys muscle him off his routes far too much. Unless Vincent Brown is in the game, passes over 10-15 yards shouldn't be considered (run decoy routes all you want, but both Norv and Rivers need to know better). Literally, Meach and Royal giving up on their routes were reminiscent of VJax mailing it in on his effort on end zone jump-balls against 5'10" safeties.

    If AJ is going to insist on not investing premium picks in the trenches he needs to be tossed out on his butt (even his great idol Bill Polian came around to the modern times in that regard, but the consistently successful teams in this modern, pass-happy era are investing on average at least a mid Day 2 pick per year on OL even when they already have a consistent starting 5 in place, and at a greater premium when they don't). And if for some reason he is kept around then we need positional coaches actually capable of developing players (I'd argue we need this regardless). Take a look at Charlie Joyner... that's the example that should be reflected in every other positional coach we have. It's currently reflected in maybe two others (if we count Bisaccia as a positional coach, otherwise it's just Don Johnson; Joe Barry hasn't been with the team long enough to get a proper sample size). Ron Meeks, Hal Hunter, Ollie Wilson, Mike Sullivan, these guys are the scrubs of NFL coaches breeding the same poor technique and lack of accountability.

    For all the crap play they had today, I can flat out guarantee that Joyner takes his unit back behind the woodshed over the next week, reads them the riot act, and kicks their behinds in practice. I have absolutely no confidence in Hunter/Sullivan, Wilson, or Meeks to do even remotely close to the same.
     
  30. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Then you're honestly a fool. Charlie has worse happy feet than Philip has.

    Phil played like crap tonight. Our entire offense sold him out and he did little more than they did. But that still doesn't qualify hyperbole as being true.

    For your own health and the sake of what you may be able to salvage of your legacy, Rivers, now would be the time to NOT toe the company line and, through the proper channels (i.e. not publicly through the media), make it known in the organization that you expect better protection to be provided to you and that the current provisions are not adequate.
     

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