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So many positions that need help, but...

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by KWGerald, Jan 25, 2016.

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  1. KWGerald

    KWGerald BoltTalker

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    ... I've been warming up to the idea of going Laquon Treadwell. He'd be excellent w/ KA13. If we did this, I'd really hope Su'A Cravens might be there in the 2nd. Later rounds can address OL and hopefully add through FA for DL/Secondary.

    This might be "pie in the sky" but I'm just not sold on what's out there, aside from DeForest Buckner, which I hope we get if we don't take Laquon. None of the OL excite me enough to use a 1st round pick on them except for Laremy Tunsil, but Tennessee will scoop him up to keep Mariota from being murdered on the field.

    Anyone else have a non-Bosa contrarian thought to this years draft?
     
  2. charger1993

    charger1993 bad motherfucker

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    buckner is way over hyped, he doesnt play with leverage, he's always high, he's got slow hands but quick feet, i dont think he excels at 3-4de. Treadwell is a pass, he's not special turn the tape on and truly watch him, his route tree isnt great, he has good hands, but he's questionable, if youre drafting a wr that high it needs to be a larry fitz or calvin johnson,
     
  3. ThunderHorse17

    ThunderHorse17 Lone Wolf

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    Have we even established if we will run a pure 3-4 or more of this hybrid **** 3-4 or jus go full on retard 4-3?
     
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  4. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I'm sick and tired of addressing the oline on the "later" rounds. It's time for this FO to realize that you win in the trenches.
     
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  5. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    In order I'd prefer....

    1. Tunsil
    2. Nkemdiche
    3. Buckner
    4. Bosa (loses value in a 3-4)
    5. Ramsey

    But it really depends on how we handle Free Agency. Our roster needs...

    QB - 1
    RB - 1
    FB - 1
    TE - 2: Gates is old, Green and Johnson are both FAs.
    WR - 1
    OT - 1: Barksdale is a FA, Dunlap is injury prone, Harrison is meh.
    C - 2 : Neither Robinson nor Watt is worth any more time.
    DE - 2
    NT - 1
    ILB - 2: Connor is just a guy, and Te'o is at the point where his career is on the line.
    S - 2
    CB - 1: Signing P. Robinson is a must IMO, need a fall back for Flowers.

    That is a ton. Even assuming we re-sign Gates, Barksdale, Robinson, and maybe Green and Addae on the cheap just for depth purposes; we still have to acquire more (younger) players at those positions.
     
  6. KWGerald

    KWGerald BoltTalker

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    But if Tunsil is gone, who else is really worthy of a day 1 pick at OL?
     
  7. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Stanley if we move back. Also I'm not referring to just OLine. I said trenches. We have got to address this line on both sides of the ball with talent. Year in, and year out we constantly wait till later in the draft to do this. That's why we are in the situation we are in.
     
  8. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    But...but...I can't put offensive linemen on my fantasy team!?! Nah we need a WR!
     
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  9. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    I think the answer to this question, and it will play out through the draft process (combine, interviews, pro days) is Robert Nkemdiche. I'll go ahead and admit it, he's a better natural athlete than Bosa and I fully expect him to put on a show at the combine. My problem with him and why I still have him behind Bosa is attitude/work ethic/commitment to football - whatever you wanna call it. Where Bosa loves football (kid lives it, eats it, breathes it), I'm not sure Nkemdiche is the same animal. I feel like Nkemdiche is a pampered former 5 star recruit, played out his 3 year string at Ole Miss, and will show out at Indianapolis and wait for his multi million dollar payday. Sound like anybody you know (que Clowney, Jadaveon). Now, that's pure speculation on my part (mostly things I've read) and if I'm wrong (which is a real possibility ) this kid has all the talent in the world to warrant a top 5 pick and possibly the number one pick overall.

    As of right now, all things being equal (assuming Nkemdiche checks out) my rankings are
    1. Tunsil
    2. Bosa
    3. Nkemdiche
    4. Ramsey
    5. Treadwell

    *I'll completely pass on Buckner
    *I'm lukewarm on Stanley - maybe in a trade back scenario in the 5-10 range
     
  10. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    The Patriots never draft OLINE high and have one of the better lines (AFC Championship game notwithstanding). It doesn't mean we shouldn't draft OL or Trenches early but having tunnel vision for a position of need is a quick way to failure imo. Draft BPA that isn't QB.

    My top 5

    1. Tunsil
    2. Jack
    3. Ramsey
    4. Buckner
    5. Bosa
     
  11. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    I don't know about never. Solder and Mankins were both first rounders and Vollmer was a 2nd rounder. But I do agree with your assessment - when you start reaching for need, that's where you really open yourself up for drafting busts. That's definitely happened to us - Craig Davis and Larry English come to mind immediately
     
  12. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    Its safe to say, we'll have at least ONE very good football player in our laps at 3rd overall. Let's just hope we pick him.
     
  13. KWGerald

    KWGerald BoltTalker

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    One of the things I love about Treadwell is that he's an excellent blocker at his position. I also love the idea of trading down to scoop up an extra draft pick or two. There's some good WR talent that will be available in the 2nd round. So if we don't get Tunsil at 3 and trade down I hope we don't go for Stanley. I don't think he's worth a 1st round pick.

    If we keep our 3rd pick and Tunsil is gone, what do you all think of Ramsey going to us? Kid can flat out BALL.
     
  14. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    Ramsey would upgrade our safety instantly and has for more playmaking ablity than Weddle.
     
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  15. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Ramsey would not instantly upgrade us over Weddle at FS and he is not a SS. Weddle was a first or second team All-Pro for something like 5 straight years. Even a very good rookie with potential is not likely to play close to that level.

    In my view, Ramsey is overrated and certainly not worth being the first safety in 25 years to be taken with a top 3 overall draft pick. The only secondary player I would consider taking with a top 3 overall pick is a total shutdown Champ Bailey/Deion Sanders type CB. Those are CBs you can recognize by their shutdown game film, their blistering 40 yard dash times (4.2s or better) and their drill demonstrated hip fluidity, which makes their ability to stick to receivers almost seem effortless at times.

    I would not favor us taking a Verrett type player with a top 3 pick so I am certainly not in favor of us taking a lesser player like Ramsey at that spot in the draft.

    And the other issue is that we have other needs that are more pressing in that we are soft in both trenches. This needs to be the OL and DL draft with 4-5 such players in those categories being taken (unless we get real long term help, not band aid players, on the lines in free agency).
     
  16. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    We have very different takes on the draft. If we went the first two rounds without taking either an OL or a DL player, I would be just about ready to put a brick through my television.

    Our OL and DL has gotten to its present state by the repeated failure to dedicate top resources to those positions. the result is that we probably have the worst line on each side of the ball in all of professional football.

    Also, Treadwell is a good receiver, but in no way is he a stud #3 overall type receiver. That really is Calvin Johnson/Larry Fitzgerald type territory. I am not even sure that Treadwell is first round value. Also, he is not a premium field stretcher (not elite speed), so he does not give us that homerun threat that we need.

    As to the lines, assuming we re-sign Barksdale, we would have a depth need at OT, but not an immediate starting need. No OGs or Cs (where we need starters) carry #3 overall value or even first round value. Thus, in my view, the best need/player value combined match is achieved by going with a DL player.

    That said, Buckner is not a good fit for our DL. He does have some pass rushing ability and play making skills, but he also gets blocked and moved even by college level players. He is not stout at all as he has a naturally high pad level given his 6'7" height and is more tall than physically big at only 290 pounds (below average weight despite above average height) for a DL player. We already have too many DL players that are not stout. We don't need another one.

    I have previously suggested A'Shawn Robinson. The other DL player I really like is Andrew Billings and he might be an even better choice than Robinson. The thing I like about Billings that he is very young (only 19 right now) and he already has very above average (bordering on freak of nature) strength. As he matures, that strength is likely to increase, making him very difficult for opponents to handle effectively. With either player, the DL is immediately less soft.

    In later rounds (3-4), I think we need to get an OG and our new C. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Boehm. Again, like Billings, but on the opposite side of the ball, Boehm would represent a very powerful presence in the middle, the kind that is very difficult to move backward, basically the polar opposite of what we have now.

    My second choice would probably be for us to take an OT at #3. Barring an injury, I see no way that the Browns do not take Goff at #2. The Titans would probably take Tunsil, which would give us the ability to take Stanley or trade back and allow the Ravens or 49ers to take Stanley. While I would prefer the DL pick, I would be okay with the OT pick given Dunlap's durability issues as long as pick #35 gets used to select the best DL player available.
     
  17. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Well I was going to respond to this, but I see someone beat me to it in regards to Solder, Mankins, and Vollmer. They have drafted OLine early in the draft, but have done a better job with the late rounders than we have.

    As far as top 5:

    Tunsil
    Bosa
    Ramsey (preferably if we move back, but I would be fine taking him at #3. Regardless of a safety not going top 3 in 25 years.)
    Nkemdiche
    Stanley (if we move back)
     
  18. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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  19. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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  20. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Nkemdiche is quite possibly the most overrated player in this entire draft. He looks great and he is very athletic. The only problem is that he simply is not a very good football player, at least not right now. It is funny that nfl.com compares him to Shawn Oakman in terms of his production or lack thereof because for months now that is the exact player comparison that I arrived at independently for him, again, based upon his lack of production despite being obviously very athletic.

    I honestly do not want Nkemdiche in the first 4 rounds of the draft. I arrive at that decision by asking myself each time about whether a player or players that I think will still be on the board at the time we are drafting in those rounds is more desirable than Nkemdiche. And each time I go through that process there are players that I think are likely to be on the board that I would take over Nkemdiche without even having a second thought.

    In round 1, I would much rather have one of the other DTs or an OT.

    In round 2, I think we could get one of the other desirable DTs of the ones that fall into early round 2 (from the group of Robinson, Billings, Reed, and Austin Johnson) or possibly Darron Lee if he falls that far as our speedy ILB counterpart to Perryman's thumper ILB role. (If we can get a stout 3-4 DE, a stout NT and a speedy ILB to pair with Perryman, our front 7 will suddenly be the real deal--for the first time ever in the Telesco era. Carrethers, Philon, Mathews and Te'o would all ultimately be solid reserves.)

    In round 3, I would rather we take an OG like Landon Turner, Spencer Drango or Sebastian Tretola, solving the Franklin sucks problem and raising the question of whether or not with Franklin, along with Flowers and Donald Brown, Telesco can set a record for the most salary ever wasted on players that are (or should be) inactive in any given week.

    In round 4, I want us to take Boehm or possibly Nick Martin, each of whom I think will become rock solid starting centers in the NFL for the next decade (center problem solved, finally).

    By the time we get to round 5, if we did not take 2 DTs, then I think Nkemdiche's athleticism might warrant us taking a flier on him as a developmental prospect with some upside based upon pure athleticism despite his inexplicable lack of production in college and his absolute disappearing act for long periods of every game. That way, if his enigmatic lack of production plus disappearing act continues as a professional player, the cost of him being a bust is not as great. But I expect another team to be a sucker and take him long before that.

    I will be hoping that some other team takes him late in round 1 despite his lack of production so that Telesco will be idiot proofed from making that blunder in round 2. And, unfortunately, Telesco has long since proven that he needs as much idiot proofing as possible when it comes to the draft.
     
  21. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    Actually, no. You said Joey Bosa was the most overrated player in the draft.

    Hilarious and interesting.

    There is truth behind this, but there isn't one 3-4 true defensive end worth taking at 3rd overall. If you want to discuss trading back, find a suitor then we can talk trades. But as of right now, I don't see anybody trading up just yet, too early to tell.

    Nick Martin won't make it out of the 2nd round. You can quote me on that one. Boehm, I want to believe will make it to the 4th round, but realistically he won't make it out of the 3rd round.
     
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  22. MasterOfPuppets

    MasterOfPuppets Charger fan since 1979

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    What good is having the third overall pick if every prospect is overrated? :(
     
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  23. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    1. If I said that before regarding Bosa, I will now officially change that opinion and pass that title to Nkemdiche. I still think Bosa is overrated as well, but not as overrated. Keep in mind that some have Bosa rated as the #1 overall player so he can still be pretty good and also be significantly overrated. I also don't care for us taking Bosa because he is a bad fit for what I think we should be doing on defense (3-4). I don't care for us taking Nkemdiche because he is not very good.

    2. Not as hilarious and interesting as the refusal of many to consider Nkemdiche's lack of production despite being physically gifted. Personally, I think that people just see highlights of plays made by Nkemdiche without seeing whole games or large portions of his games.

    I got to see Nkemdiche play several games this year. Every time it was the same thing. He would make one great play where you would think "Wow, he's really good". He would also make about 2 other plays in the rest of the game that were anywhere from easy to slightly above average. There would be long periods of time where he did nothing at all.

    If you check his stats, you will see numbers in line with what I am saying. He does suffer from Shawn Oakman syndrome in terms of his lack of production. Oakman's lack of production is more impressive to me because he runs around the field (especially for a DL player) more than Nkemdiche does and yet usually does nothing. An Nkemdiche game is more like: sudden/explosive great play, sleep for 2 quarters, solid play, sleep for a quarter, solid play, end of game.

    I don't see Nkemdiche suddenly getting better results in the NFL. Given his athleticism, that's possible, but I would prefer to let someone else have that risk if they are going to use an early draft pick to select him.

    3. I have never disputed that the good DL players do not have the true value of a top 3 overall player and have always advocated a trade back. I see the likely trading partner as either BAL or SF in a trade to move up to get Stanley/Tunsil because OT value drops way off after those two are off the board.

    However, I think the lack of any DLs carrying top 3 value is mitigated by what I believe is the fact that the other named potential top draft candidates also do not carry traditional top 3 value. I think that this is a very weak draft class in terms of truly elite talent. There is no Luck or Rivers. There is no Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. There is no Ansah or Mack. There is no Leonard Williams or J.J. Watt. There is no Champ Bailey or Deion Sanders.

    I am generally not impressed by any of Ramsey, Treadwell, Jack, Hargreaves, Alexander, Bosa, Buckner, et cetera as traditional top 5 overall elite/special type players. In my view, if they are better at all than players like Robinson and Billings, they are not much better. It is a very close call between players that play different positions, which makes the call even more difficult.

    So, what I am doing is throwing those basically equal level players in a pot and looking at our greatest needs, which I see as 3-4 DE, NT, OG and C. We aren't taking our OG and C in the first round because none carry even arguably top half of round 1 value.

    The other approach that I am kind of okay with is looking at slightly lesser needs where we can upgrade with what I will call a safe and easy pick. Assuming we re-sign Barksdale, we would have passing starting talent at OT, but Tunsil/Stanley would be an upgrade and I think Stanley in particular would be a very safe can't, barring injury, go wrong draft pick. Tunsil I view as slightly less safe (slightly less size/length borderline small NFL OT, more injury prone in college and we certainly do need more injury prone players), but still probably a safe pick.

    I think that assuming Jack's combine goes as I think it will, he would make sense as a more athletic ILB to play next to Perryman. I think he is a safe call as well. Then again, I think Darron Lee might be just about as good as an ILB and he might be available in round 2.

    I think the others are less safe and/or less of a need. There was speculation that we took Mager to replace Weddle. I want that speculation to be right.

    I do not see Ramsey as the elite athlete that others see him as. His projected 40 yard dash time is not elite at all. In fact, it is slower than Mager's time. Also, while I would not have a difficult time believing that Ramsey has better ball skills than Mager, it would surprise me if Ramsey, being two inches taller, had much, if any advantage in terms of hip fluidity, especially since lack of hip fluidity is a criticism that I have seen asserted against Ramsey in at least one draft profile whereas it supposed to be a strength for Mager.

    If that assessment is correct, burning our first round pick just to get improved ball skills, but probably not improved coverage skills, does not seem like a good use of the #3 overall pick. Now, if the team has no intention of using Mager at FS, then yes, there is a hole there, but we can look at other options that do not involve burning the #3 overall pick to get a player with some risk like Ramsey.

    4. If you follow NFL drafts carefully, what you see is that in most years only one C goes off the board before round 3. That player could be Martin. That is possible, but there is also a good chance that he is still sitting on the board by the time we pick early in round 3. I certainly would not advocate taking him with the #35 overall draft pick in round 2. That is too early for us to be taking a C with our current long list of position upgrades needed.

    Boehm is projected as a round 5 player (not the most mobile C for plays involving pulling the C and he has short arms for an OL player, but he is as big and strong as an ox) and I have discussed taking him early in round 4, so my approach almost seems too cautious, if anything, but I think a little caution is warranted given our need for a C, but we are really sacrificing draft ammunition value if we move up much beyond early round 4. Early round 4 is still a top 100 overall pick.
     
  24. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I think the answer is not much except for the possibility of a trade back. I don't see the top rated players this year carrying value that would normally be associated with top 5 overall players. I think it is a weak draft class in that respect in particular. I think you could probably put a good 15-20 players in a shake-n-bake bag and whichever player tumbles out could be argued to be a top 5 overall player in this year's draft.

    It is a perfect time to trade back, but it might be difficult to find a trading partner under these circumstances. The best I could come up with is SF/BAL (or another OT needy team) trading up to get Stanley/Tunsil. And I think that is a longshot as well.

    I don't think we would be significantly worse off drafting #10-12 in this year's draft than we are drafting at #3.
     
  25. Moses

    Moses Can You Stand The Rain?

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    Chaincrusher, given you're not a fan of Bosa, Nkemdiche, Ramsey, etc... if Tunsil goes #1 and we can't find a partner to trade down, who do you actually take at #3?

    If we are sat at 3, Tunsil is off the board, Browns take a QB, then for me it has to come down to who we like out of Bosa or Ramsey. 3 might be high to take a DB, but Ramsey might be the best player available, and it wouldn't be like he didn't fit a need either. surely better to reach a few spots for one of the legitimate potential stars in the draft than to take someone at a "more important" position and get even less value?
     
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  26. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    You have to understand Chain is the greatest GM without a job right now. In fact he's not even a scout, but scouts want to be him, and GMs want to hire him.

    If it were him, he'd trade back one spot and pick up 3 future 1st round picks.
    Then he'd trade back AGAIN, 2 spots (because hey, lets not be greedy) and pick up a future 1, 2 and 3.
    Then he'd settle for A'Shawn Robinson at 1st only because other GMs don't want to give him any more picks.
    Then he'd make good with Eric Weddle
    Then he'd buy the team from Dean Spanos with the down payment from selling his wife's minivan.
    Then he'd keep the Chargers in San Diego, end the drug wars in Mexico, get on the cover of People Magazines Sexiest Man issue, then fly to the middle east to make peace between Israel and Iran, then write a best selling book about it called "Break the ChainCrusher: The True Story of a Man and his Talking Goat.

    :coffee: Just stop me when I go to far.
     
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  27. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    As far as trading back goes, just keep cheering for the continued rise of Carson Wentz. A team might want to trade ahead of Dallas for him.
     
  28. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    Don't cheer to hard, he might end up being a good franchise QB we missed out on. Hopefully he has a Andy Dalton ceiling but teams believe he is the next Tom Brady.
     
  29. Moses

    Moses Can You Stand The Rain?

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    For me, Bosa, Ramsey & Tunsil are the 3 best players in this draft. If we get stuck at 3 and can't move down, I'd be happy to take any of those.

    For Chaincrusher it appears he doesn't like Bosa or Ramsey so much, so was genuinely asking to see who he likes at 3. I know a lot about Alabama players as they are the team I follow, but I'm not sure I consider A'Shawn Robinson someone who I'd draft at #3. I think he is a very good player, has possible pro-bowl potential due to his power and athleticism, but he's the type of guy you take towards the back end of the top 10 because he isn't a particularly sure thing.

    DeForest Buckner is another guy I've seen us linked to in a couple of mock drafts online, but to be honest I don't know that much about him.
     
  30. Moses

    Moses Can You Stand The Rain?

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    With this in mind, who is actually a realistic trade partner though? Look at the 10 spots below our pick:
    Dallas - could move up to avoid someone else trading with us.
    Baltimore - don't need a QB
    San Francisco - Chip Kelly hiring might mean they roll with Kaepernick another year.
    Miami - don't need a QB
    Tampa Bay - don't need a QB
    NY Giants - don't need a QB
    Chicago - Possibly, but Cutler wasn't awful last season, so they may roll with him another year.
    New Orleans - Unlikely unless they cut Brees, they have other needs too.
    Philadelphia - Possible, but then they may also give Bradford another year.
    Oakland - don't need a QB

    Rams at 15 may have a need, but do you want to move down 11 spots? How far down is too far?
     

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