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Spygate Update

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by sdbound, Feb 21, 2008.

  1. sdbound

    sdbound Well-Known Member

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/s...en=7b8ddff987863917&ei=5099&partner=TOPIXNEWS

    New Claim of Taping Emerges Against Patriots
    February 22, 2008

    INDIANAPOLIS — The Patriots’ pattern of illicitly videotaping the signals of opposing N.F.L. coaches began in Coach Bill Belichick’s first preseason with the team in 2000, a former Patriots player said. The information was put to use in that year’s regular-season opener against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Belichick’s debut as New England’s coach.

    The secret taping of signals, which is against league rules, continued at least through three championship seasons to the 2007 season opener against the Jets, when the Patriots were caught and subsequently sanctioned by the league.

    As coaches and executives gathered here Thursday for the N.F.L. scouting combine, many saying they were satisfied with the league’s investigation and ready to move on, new details were emerging about the history of the Patriots’ videotaping.

    According to several executives in the league, the season opener against the Jets was not the first time the Patriots had been spotted taping another team’s defensive coaches at Giants Stadium. In the final preseason game of 2006, the Patriots were caught taping a Giants defensive assistant giving signals, the executives said.

    The incident prompted a letter addressed to all teams seven days later from the N.F.L. vice president Ray Anderson that detailed the league’s interpretation of the rules. That letter was cited by Commissioner Roger Goodell when he punished the Patriots.

    Belichick has said that he misinterpreted the league’s bylaws, telling Goodell that he thought it was permissible to use electronic equipment as long as the information was not used in the same game. That explanation has been greeted with disbelief by some peers and league officials.

    In a news conference last week, Goodell said Belichick’s explanation led to the assumption that he had been videotaping opponents’ signals “as long as he has been head coach.”

    The league’s nine-member competition committee spent three days this week discussing various rules changes that it might recommend for next season. After a 90-minute briefing on the Patriots’ videotaping activities Thursday by Goodell and three league vice presidents, the committee said taping rules would not be changed in the aftermath of the controversy.

    “The rules are very, very clear,” said Tennessee Titans Coach Jeff Fisher, a committee member. “There is no need to be more specific or clarify any rules whatsoever.”

    Questions linger about how much of an advantage the Patriots may have had if they intercepted defensive signals. Under Belichick, the Patriots have often run a no-huddle offense, which forces opponents to quickly call a defensive play. N.F.L. rules allow quarterbacks to hear instructions from coaches — through a headset and into a speaker in the quarterback’s helmet — until there are 15 seconds left on a play clock. When the defensive play call is deciphered, the Patriots could call a play to counteract. The Patriots lost the 2000 opener against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, when videotape of signals was used in preparation, according to the former Patriots player, who was among several former players interviewed by the N.F.L but said he did not want to speak publicly because the investigation is continuing.

    The Patriots appear to have continued the practice of taping opposing signals for seven years. Last September, Goodell fined Belichick $500,000, fined the Patriots $250,000 and took away one of team’s first-round draft choices in 2008. After the sanctions were announced, the Patriots submitted six tapes, from games in 2006 and 2007, and some notes that dated to 2002, Goodell said. The tapes and notes were destroyed days after being handed to the league, because Goodell considered the matter closed.

    But questions remain about how wide and deep the Patriots’ taping habits extended. Senator Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican who met with Goodell last week, is among those still questioning why the league was so quick to sanction the Patriots and destroy the evidence.

    Goodell met with the competition committee Thursday to discuss his handling of the spying case. Committee members seemed satisfied and eager to turn the page.

    “We were all satisfied, every one of us,” said John Mara, the Giants’ president. “All of us have our different opinions about the Patriots, but we were all satisfied that this thing was investigated properly and that they came to the proper conclusion.”

    Bill Polian, the president of the Indianapolis Colts, said: “It’s behind us. It’s time to move forward.”


    But emerging details continue to pull the league back in time. On Feb. 2, The Boston Herald reported that the Patriots might have taped a St. Louis Rams walkthrough practice the day before the teams played in the 2002 Super Bowl. The Patriots won, 20-17, on a last-second field goal. Belichick, speaking to The Boston Globe, recently denied that the practice was taped.

    In the hallway at the convention center here, Mike Martz wanted to talk about his new job as San Francisco’s offensive coordinator. Instead, reporters peppered him with questions about the Patriots. Martz was the coach of the Rams when the teams met in the Super Bowl six years ago.

    He took exception to the theory that the Patriots could not have gleaned much information from taping the walkthrough. He said indeed they could, but added that was not the point.

    “For somebody to say that, it’s kind of disgusting,” Martz said. “The whole point is if they really cheated. To say he took some steroids and it did help or it didn’t help, that’s never the point. The point is, to all these high school coaches and high school kids and college kids, that if they did cheat, that’s the point.”

    Martz said he assumed the walkthrough report was false. A similar sentiment was voiced by Chicago Bears Coach Lovie Smith, the Rams’ defensive coordinator that season.

    “It’s just hard for me to fathom anyone would do anything like that,” Smith said. “I’m sure, if there’s something to it, No. 1, it will come out later. Time has a way of taking care of all things.”

    Martz was asked if he wanted the N.F.L. to continue investigating the walkthrough. “Of course,” he said. “I was involved in that. I was responsible for a lot of people in that game.”

    Executives dismissed any lingering notions that the Patriots’ taping opponents was a common practice around the league.

    “I don’t want the outside perception to be, ‘Boy, there are all these teams and they’re all doing all these things,’ ” said Rich McKay, the Falcons’ president and a member of the competition committee. “Because it’s not true.”

    Belichick was not seen in the hallways of the convention center Thursday. Representatives of 21 teams are scheduled to meet with reporters for news conferences from Thursday to Sunday. Belichick and the Patriots are not among them.
     
  2. Showmeyourbolt

    Showmeyourbolt Well-Known Member

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    Nothing surprising. The league knows that they have to try and cover this whole thing up or the entire NFL could suffer greatly because of it. They're going keep trying to sweep it under the rug.
     
  3. -Scar-

    -Scar- thedoomship.com

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    So Far So Good In Their Minds Until Someone Actually Mans Up And Produces A Tape Or Just Goes Public....
     
  4. Ride The Lightning

    Ride The Lightning Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.

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    Yep, if an authentic tape comes out all hell will break loose.

    *prays*
     
  5. Daddy_O

    Daddy_O Well-Known Member

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    What a jackhole. That whole organization needs a good ole' fashioned woopin'. :tup:

    If the Comish won't handle this properly, I think the pass rush should be to used to remove Brady from football. He was fully aware of what was going on this whole time. The players can take this into their own hands. :icon_eek:

    Least that's what we used to do in Pop Warner. You play dirty and you will get hurt.
     
  6. Gridreaper

    Gridreaper BoltTalker

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    ...Sounds good to me :beat:
     
  7. Kwak

    Kwak ....

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    Now it may just be me, but it seemed to me that Brady often would look over to the sidelines as he was walking to the line. Was he getting a last minute signal?? :icon_shrug:
     
  8. sdbound

    sdbound Well-Known Member

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    "Every now and then I'd get a sheet, one hour before the game, with a list of audibles for our opponent. I don't know how, but they just showed up."

    -- Former Patriots linebacker Ted Johnson



    If Belichick's career survives the off season I'll be surprised. The NFL wants this to go away but there is no way that football fans are going to allow this to fade away until Belichick is forced out.
     
  9. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    Unwise. What goes around comes around. Anyone caught trying to deliberately cause injury to Brady risks a serious set back to their own career, not to mention opening Rivers, or LT or Gates or Chambers to retaliation.
     
  10. Kwak

    Kwak ....

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    What about the bills retaliating for that cheapshot on Loshman by Vince Wilfork? :icon_shrug:

    Leg whip by the Gerbel on Rivers already injured knee in the playoffs?
     
  11. RM24

    RM24 BoltTalker

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    Yup, somebody made a copy (or copies) and it will surface. I hope it does. I just want the Cheatriots to go DOWN! :yes:
     
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  12. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    That sort of tactic is one thing, but weren't you talking about taking him out of a career? There are ways to get your own back, but I got the feeling you were looking at a full blown attempt to maim the guy. Something like not letting up when you have a chance to drill him, or swiping his legs out from under him just might send the right message. Anything more than that ought to be beyond the pale.
     
  13. Kwak

    Kwak ....

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    I wasn't the one calling for his knee to be whacked, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if someone rolled up on his knee and gave him a good limp for a few weeks.

    I was just pointing out that they have taken some cheaps shots at other QBs knees, so why should Brady not have a target on his back.

    Add the cheating factor and running up the score last year.

    Regarding the cheating. How could Brady NOT know what was going on. He was the one getting the calls as to what play to run.
     
  14. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    Had to several members of the team who knew. Don't roll him up too early in the season.
     
  15. Daddy_O

    Daddy_O Well-Known Member

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    Of course he knew. It was all part of the game plan. Dude needs to pay the piper cause his song has been played.
     
  16. sdbound

    sdbound Well-Known Member

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    http://www.thesunchronicle.com/articles/2008/02/23/sports/sports3.txt

    Capers hired by Patriots

    FOXBORO - The resident cynic wonders if, with the signing of former Carolina and Houston head coach Dom Capers as a "special assistant" to Patriots' coach Bill Belichick, the Patriots are covering their backsides by putting a former head coach in-house should Belichick be forced to take a Spygate-dictated vacation in the months to come.



    In another article,

    Mr. Sunshine
    THE SUPER BOWL WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE DEFINING MOMENT FOR BILL BELICHICK. SADLY, IT WAS.
    [​IMG]

    :lol:
     
  17. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Put an astric next to everything the cheating SOB has touched.
     
  18. Gridreaper

    Gridreaper BoltTalker

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    ...I sure hope this pathetic group of pukes pretending to me an NFL team ultimately pays a big price for this. We can only hope that Goodell sprouts some balls in the near future and does the right thing. He does owe something to the rest of the league and to the integrity of the NFL as a whole. It's too late to sweep it under the rug...so make the bastards pay if it pans out the way it looks like it will.
    The one positive is..in the court of public appeal, they are already
    guilty. Their accomplishments are tainted and they will always be considered cheaters. They put a stink on the NFL like the 1919 Black Sox did to baseball. They need to be dealt with in the same manner.:tdown:
     
  19. Retired Catholic

    Retired Catholic BoltTalker

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    Unless Walsh comes out with something new, we won't get a redo on the penalties already imposed. Nobody among the powers that be in the NFL seem to be very eager to do anything accept leave this particular peccadillo in the dust. Unless something gets into the public, embarrassing situations are like that tree falling in the forest with nobody around to hear it. As far as they are concerned it doesn't make a sound.
     
  20. sdbound

    sdbound Well-Known Member

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    Does Goodell want to know what Walsh has on tape?

    By Ron Borges
    Feb. 26, 2008

    Sounding not at all like Franklin D. Roosevelt, they all say they have nothing to fear but fear itself. If that’s the case, then why is it so difficult to agree not to sue a former low-level employee of the Patriots in exchange for taking a peek at his video collection and possibly listening to his audio collection?

    Commissioner Roger Goodell kept saying for weeks that “no one wants to talk with Matt Walsh more than we do,” after which he sent a guy from NFL security — former FBI agent Dick Farley — to investigate him at his former places of employment. Way to open a guy up to a chat.
    Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter has become more than an interested spectator in what has become the embarrassing mess called Spygate II, which might morph into Audiogate I, as well, if Walsh has any of the tape recordings of conversations between himself and Patriots vice president of player personnel Scott Pioli that Walsh has been accused of making. Specter was so interested in the matter that he forced Goodell to come to his office in Washington. The senator was told the commissioner knew Farley worked for him but claimed he didn’t know Farley was investigating anybody.

    That admission came after Goodell had insisted that destroying the evidence in Spygate I before he’d even seen it wasn’t all that unusual. He sounded like he could move right into management with the LAPD.

    Goodell has unwisely treated this as the NFL treats most things — as a public-relations problem. He says he acted swiftly when the first charges were leveled at Bill Belichick for cheating, although we now have learned he acted so swiftly he fined Belichick four days before the Patriots produced the notes and tapes he sought. How do you punish someone before you know what he did?

    Then, it turns out, Goodell had his minions, including an attorney named Jeff Pash, who should have known better, destroy the evidence while they were in Foxborough, a move Goodell defends as “the right thing to do.” How is destroying evidence the right thing to do?

    That action now calls into question the alleged “leaking” of a portion of one of those tapes to Fox-TV news maven Jay Glazer. At the time, Goodell was supposedly outraged, yet now we have learned that the tapes were destroyed by Pash and NFL vice president Ray Anderson while they were in Foxborough at the instruction of Goodell. What that means, if Goodell is to be believed, is that either the Patriots leaked it to make themselves look bad or Goodell’s office did it because if they destroyed the tapes in Foxborough, no one else would have ever had access to them.

    No wonder Sen. Specter said of Goodell’s explanations, “The words ‘absurd’ and ‘ridiculous’ keep coming to my mind because he says it with a straight face.”

    Belichick himself came out with a forceful denial of ever having seen a tape of the Rams’ pre-Super Bowl XXXVI walk-through or of any practice of any opponent at any time, for that matter. He didn’t mention, or his inquisitor never asked, if anyone in his employ had ever seen such a thing, broke it down and delivered him the information. That is, in fact, how it most often works for the head coach. Others break down the film, run the computer analysis and then deliver the information.

    No one is saying that’s what happened in this case because no one yet knows if a tape of the Rams’ final practice before Super Bowl XXXVI existed, but a head coach denying he ever saw it means only that. Why would he? That’s why he employs a Boy Scout troop full of wide-eyed men like Walsh was when he first came to New England as a P.R. intern.

    Denials by Belichick and the Patriots mean very little, as do claims by Goodell about how badly the NFL wants to speak with Walsh, the former Patriots videographer who is now a golf pro in Hawaii.

    The fact is that if the Patriots have nothing more to hide — they already were caught red-handed running an illegal taping operation of opposing coaches flashing sideline signals despite having been specifically reminded by a league memo to all head coaches and general managers not to do it and then tried to weasel out of it by claiming a loophole in the rule that didn’t exist — all they had to do from the start is release Walsh from the unusual non-disclosure agreement they forced him to sign when they fired him.

    The same is true for Goodell and the league. If they wanted to talk with Walsh as badly as they say, they could have given him blanket indemnity from any lawsuit filed by the Patriots and been done with it. They also could have picked up the phone and called anyone he once worked for and asked if he had worked there, if all they were doing was “confirming his employment,” as Goodell claimed. They didn’t have to send a former FBI agent to those employers in an effort to intimidate Walsh.

    Where Spygate II and Audiogate I end up is anyone’s guess. All football fans should hope it ends up where the Patriots say it will, which is with nothing to fear but fear itself. But there’s a nagging feeling that there’s more to this. Why would you say you’ve kept videotapes for years that you say you can use against your old employer if you don’t have them? Why would you feel the need to audiotape phone conversations with an ex-boss, in this case Pioli, unless he was saying things that worried you?

    It’s unlikely that the Collected Tapes of Scott Pioli will ever win a Grammy, so what was being said on them? Even more alarming: Why, when Matt Walsh was fired five years ago, did the Patriots feel compelled to force a kid whom Belichick claimed he “couldn’t identify in a lineup” to sign a non-disclosure agreement before he left? Disclose what?

    One has to wonder just how badly Roger Goodell really wants to know the answer to that question.
     
  21. sdbound

    sdbound Well-Known Member

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    Read at you own risk,


    Entry of a clown in Spygate making circus look like child's play

    March 3, 2008
    By Mike Freeman
    CBSSports.com

    Recently, a new piece of information regarding accusations that the New England Patriots cheated their way to dynastic supremacy was published and it should cause a lot of people to finally shut the hell up.

    It won't, but it should.

    Just in case you missed it this weekend, the New York Daily News reported on a scene involving former New York Jets coach Herm Edwards several years ago. Edwards knew that the Patriots filmed the signals of opponents so the Jets coach took precautions to thwart them by altering their system of signaling plays.

    I am told the Jets took even more steps to protect their secrecy when they played the Patriots. Security around the team's practice facility was increased during New England week and Jets personnel were on the lookout for strange men with cameras (sounds like a night in Central Park). That's how well-known Belichick was for his electronic espionage.

    Edwards, blessed with a good sense of humor and a prankster's genome, changed the team's signals during games against the Patriots, but then added a little spice. Edwards was so aware of Belichick's practices that when seeing the filming equipment, he clowned it, actually waving to the camera.

    The year this happened? It was 2004.

    Let me repeat that. It was four years ago.

    Four damn years.

    If what Belichick did, portrayed by Patriots Haters and Belichick Bashers as the end of civilization as we know it, was so advantageous to them and despicable, why were coaches like Edwards mocking it?

    Why didn't he turn in Belichick, if what Belichick was doing was so significant and dastardly?

    The answer: Because it wasn't.

    The Daily News article, to me, is one of the more important pieces of this Patriots Spygate puzzle. It might not seem so but it is.

    If a savvy longtime NFL employee (Edwards has been playing and coaching in professional football for decades) did nothing to stop Belichick's spying and even sarcastically mocked it, then how much of an advantage could Belichick have gotten over the years with this practice?

    And since this occurred four years ago, and since NFL coaches are like gossipy teenagers on MySpace, I can guarantee you almost everyone in football knew what was happening.

    Within six months of it occurring, the Edwards story had probably spread to every NFL team. Coaches were probably laughing about it.

    "Can you believe that Belichick?" coaches were probably saying. "What a card that guy is."

    There were probably a few more curse words thrown in but you get the point.

    The more information that comes out about Spygate, the less I'm convinced any significant benefit was reached, the less I'm convinced Belichick is some grand cheater and the more I believe Belichick's practices were extremely common in football.

    This is not about excusing Belichick for breaking the rules. This is about clarifying the record. Every team in football was doing what Belichick did and it was so common that they knew that you knew that they knew. You know?

    Belichick's problem is arrogance, not being the devil.

    Belichick might have done a great deal of filming. Maybe he filmed a Super Bowl walkthrough. Maybe he's Steven Spielberg and has been filming practices since he was seven years old. I don't know.

    What I do know is Spygate is not some requiem for Belichick (it shouldn't be at least) or this grand moment in league history. It's all hat and no cattle.

    The crying and whining of people like Mike Martz has been hard to take. Just be quiet. You got beat.

    Damn babies.

    And the more convinced I am the NFL's current "investigation" of the Patriots is a piece of extremely well-done theater. Broadway would be proud. Give the NFL its Golden Globe, already.

    Why did Belichick spy in the first place, you ask, if the benefit was minor? The same reason probably every team in football does it. They're coaches. They're all psychos. They do things that make no sense. They work 20-hour days because the other guy is, not because they need to.

    So teams try to steal the other guy's signals hoping to get something but knowing there will likely be little benefit.

    Think back to Edwards clowning to Belichick's camera, followed by the lack of complaining to the league. Edwards is a hardcore NFL man and I can tell you he's fearless. Belichick's power and reputation wouldn't scare Edwards. Why didn't he turn Belichick in?

    Why?

    Sources have reiterated to me -- again -- that at least some of Belichick's videotapes contained similar images of coaches acknowledging the cameras with mocking gestures as well as shots of cheerleaders.

    Maybe we should rename Spygate.

    Call it Hermgate.

    So when you haters and excuse makers want to continue to bash the Patriots and try to take away the significance of their titles, think of Edwards, clowning to the camera and handling the situation like a grown man and smart coach instead of a big fat baby.

    :puke:
     
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  22. Kwak

    Kwak ....

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    Freeman is a tool and has been all over the defense of the Pat since the story broke.

    Here some quotes from other articles of his:

    Dude has serious man love for all things Patriots and would have Brady's love child if he could. Well 2nd love child...
     

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