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Takeo is Still Fired Up at AP's comments

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by boltssbbound, Sep 11, 2011.

  1. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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  2. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Takeo had a GREAT game today. As did Sanders, Butler, and Cason.
     
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  3. robdog

    robdog Code Monkey Staff Member Administrator

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    Spikes looked solid today as did a number of other people on the D. We just need people to stay healthy!
     
  4. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    With the exception of AP's one long run, the run defense brought it all day. And even that play was a 12 yard run that AP just turned into something special. That's what he does. People want to give Weddle crap for letting AP get away from him on that one, but I give him credit for even making contact. Most safeties in this league don't lay a finger on AP when he's got that much space in the open field. The other impressive thing if you go back and watch that play is that Bob Sanders comes out of nowhere to save the TD on that one. He was balling.
     
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  5. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    And on that play Cam Thomas was spelling Garay, and got BLASTED. When Garay is in the game we are a different defense.
     
  6. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Plz god let Sanders and Spikes stay healthy! And I may be the only one but so far I like what I see alot out of Liuget!
     
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  7. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    You are definitely not the only one. The rook is playing well. He was very disruptive in the preseason and he did well today taking on blocks and getting penetration.
     
  8. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Ya he spent a good majority of his PT today disrupting plays....I like it...Move him to Castillo's spot FT
     
  9. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Agree on all 3 player evals.
    Liuget is not good against run, but damn good getting into backfield. Anyway, don't we have to give a rookie a few games or so

    #askenglish
     
  10. bigmike.x.09

    bigmike.x.09 Well-Known Member

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    Digging the fire!
     
  11. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Not good against the run? So why do the Chargers put him in on running downs? Provided you don't get out of position, getting penetration into the backfield is part of run defense, too.
     
  12. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Opposing blockers take him out of lanes easily.
    Kid's a rookie, he'll get better.

    As to your why question: Cesaire isn't that good.
    So who else should be there?

    Also, logic of "if chargers put him in, he must be good" isn't very good logic.
     
  13. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Your "logic" is based on some observation you have made of the kid's play after one career start. The coaches love this kid, and it's not because of his pass rushing skills. DEs in a 3-4 are primarily run stuffers. Why would they be raving about his play if he sucked against the run? Cesaire is not an all-pro or anything, but he is solid. For Liguet to start ahead of him means that the coaches believe Liguet is better. I tend to trust coaches' opinions over random blog posters.

    BTW, if all your looking at is network tape of a game, you will often miss what's happening in the trenches.
     
  14. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    So you're looking at different tape?

    Kid attacks the pass, isn't great against the run in game 1 regular season = coaches raving. Not sure what you expect from rookies. He still needs to show that he can play the run. Most people, I would say 'trust your eyes more than anything else', not sure about you though.

    fyi: Bolts are playing 1 gap 3-4 throughout most games in RR's reign, preseason and today. Would behoove you to look up responsibility of DEs in that system.
     
  15. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    I don't look at other tape than the network feed, but I know the coaches do. Yes, the Chargers' DEs have one-gap responsibility in the Bolts 3-4, but their primary responsibility is still to get penetration and contain the run . AJ Smith has even said that Liguet is big enough and powerful enough to slide down and play the nose tackle in our system. Do I need to look up what the responsibility of the NT in our system, too? Does the NT not have 2 gap responsibility?

    3-4 DEs in the Steelers defense have one-gap responsibility, too, but they are still primarily run stuffers. The Steelers DEs combined last year for a total of 6 sacks. Would you say that rushing the passer is their primary responsibility?
    The Chargers drafted Liguet because he has a unique combination of power and athleticism that will help him make plays in the opponent's backfield in both the running and the passing game. But the run is his primary responsibility.
     
  16. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Bullshit all around.
    "If the coaches say it's right, then it's right" = poor logic on your part.
    Primary responsibility is to get penetration AND stop the run? Damn, I hope AJ ups the draft ante.
    Does the NT always have 2 gap responsibility? Really? Check the (network) tape.

    And the Steelers? Who else plays Lebeau's system? That's some sweet red herring but I'll call the dogs off that one.

    Review this game again. Review all the preseason games. Liuget isn't good against the run (yet, if that makes you feel better). Gets owned by one guy.
    I know you don't get logic but let's try this one more time:

    Suppose that you, boltsbound, are Greg Manusky. Norv wants a starting line-up. You have two choices at RDE. Cesaire or Liuget. Cesaire has rarely made some good plays, been occasionally solid, and missed some plays as well. Liuget, your 1st round pick, kicks *** when the QB steps back, isn't so good against the run but is still as good as Cesaire, and needs to learn.

    Who do you play?

    Pretty obvious and certainly not proof that Liuget is some stellar run stopper in the NFL.

    Idea being to give him experience, as many snaps as possible, cause hell, you have no one better!

    And if he's good against the pass and not so good against the run, well ****, that's pretty damn good for a rookie in Week 1.

    No need, boltsetc, to homer every aspect of a guy just cause AJ drafted him.
    What's next, a treatise on why we shouldn't throw Davis into the mud yet? ;)
     
  17. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Your assertions are all crap. You don't keep a player
    Your assertions are all crap. Cesaire has made good plays more than rarely. He is not an all-pro or pro bowler obviously, but he's better than you think. Liguet clearly has the potential to be better than Cesaire, but you don't start Liguet week 1 if you don't think he'll play better now. Liguet's primary responsibility in our system is to stop the run. 1 gap or 2 gap, that's what a 3-4 DE is asked to do. To say they started him week 1 of his rookie season even though he is bad at his position's primary responsibility makes no sense. That would be like starting a rookie CB who sucks against the pass but is good in run support or starting a WR who can't get open but is a good run blocker.

    You clearly think you know better than the coaches and the GM. If you want to enjoy that sort of mental masturbation, fine. I know the decisions they make are not infallible. They are wrong sometimes. But I have never met a fan who was right more often than a coach or GM, with the possible exception of Matt Millen as a GM. I think I could have drafted better than him.

    You really believe that the coaches started Liguet even though they believe he's bad against the run? They said, "well he's no good at his primary responsibility, but he's our number one pick, so screw it. Let's put him in there anyway.

    After a shortened offseason and limited camp, I know Liguet has alot to learn, especially technique-wise since he's playing a position with different responsibilities than the one he played in college. I know he' s not great, yet. But his raw talent is enough to make him a better run stuffer than Cesaire, or he would not be in there on running downs. And Cesaire is good against the run.
     
  18. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Before I go lighting you up I'm gonna watch the game again tomorrow more carefully, the contrast in our opinions is the grand canyon right now. Cuz honestly I thought our defense played as well as it could against the best RB in the NFL, and beyond that when it came to stopping the pass.
     
  19. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Do you spend time studying circular logic?
    If not, kudos, cause you're a natural.

    Again, of course they start Liuget if he's their best option (you're going to run yourself ragged admitting he's better than Cesaire, which is ironic). Remember, what set you off was a simple statement that Liuget "is not that good against the run".

    He isn't. Yet. Next up: let's argue about Cooper's legacy ;)
     
  20. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Yeah cause a post about Liuget = inference to the Charger D.
    Looking forward to the lighting up.....

    You guys maybe need be a tad less homeristic......
     
  21. BoltWalt

    BoltWalt Well-Known Member

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    What where AP's comments? Could somebody please post a link for me?
     
  22. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    What set me off was your arrogance and douchebaggery. You want to be a condescending douchebag, don't expect some passive, polite response. I understand the Chargers defensive system. I understand the responsibilities of the various positions, but you chose to treat me as if I did not. To say that run stopping is not the primary responsibility of the Chargers DEs is completely ridiculous.

    BTW, I'm not using circular logic. Circular logic would be a statement like: "All Charger starters are good players. The fact that Corey Liguet starts for the Chargers proves that he is a good player." That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if Liguet was as bad against the run as you make him out to be, I do not believe he would be starting. Cesaire is a solid run stopper, but he has limited athleticism. Liguet clearly is superior athletically, but if he were not better against the run right now, I don't believe he would be starting, since that is what this scheme requires out of the DE position. If one of our 3 starting defensive linemen was not "good against the run" today, it seems hard to believe we would have done such a good job containing the best back in the league.

    Go back and watch the video clip that was the topic of this thread before you derailed it. Takeo said, "I know I got some dogs up front, and they went huntin' today." Takeo does not strike me as the kind of player that gives out false praise. Do you think when he said that he was thinking, "But not Liguet, because he's not good against the run." Maybe Takeo is just a homer or not as capable of recognizing effective defensive line play as you are.

    As for logic, you have basically said that "Liguet is not good against the run because I said so." What kind of logic is that?

    With a couple games left to be played in week 1, the Chargers lead the league in total defense. The fact that they managed to accomplish that with one of their starting lineman being so astonishingly bad at his primary responsibility is really a testament to the other 10 guys on D, I guess.
     
  23. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    I have not seen the footage, but apparently AP was interviewed for local TV and guaranteed that he would put up 200 yards and that the Vikings would get a W.
     
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  24. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    I said he wasn't that good against the run, and you took exception = derailment.
    Review the post in this thread that set you off. It was pretty innocuous. You like Liuget. That much is certain.

    'As for logic', your example of circular logic is almost exactly what you did! But I'll admit that it's impressive to deny it while citing a near-identical example. You have a career in politics ahead of you.

    Your 3-4 take stunk, and I called you on it. Douchebaggery is a great adverb but a 2-way street. I'll leave the other red herrings to you....
     
  25. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    You need to understand the terms you are using. The point I made was that the professional coaches believe he's good against the run and you believe he isn't. I choose to trust the pros' opinions more than yours. That's not circular logic.

    In the games I've been able to watch, I've seen Liguet be a disruptive force in the backfield against the run and the pass. My observations are supported by the fact that the coaches have made comments praising his play and that he has earned a starting spot as a rookie. Further supporting my opinion is the fact that Liguet was one of the three starting defensive linemen today that held the best back in the league to less than a 100 yards, and pretty much completely shut him down with the exception of one big play.

    You keep telling me that my analysis of our 3-4 defense was inaccurate, but repeatedly stating something does not make it true. The DEs in our system typically play a 1 gap technique and are primarily responsible for getting penetration into the backfield to contain the run. Any pass rush they manage to produce is icing on the cake. Our nose is often responsible for both center/guard gaps. What's inaccurate about what I said? Please, enlighten me.
     
  26. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Damn, I was looking forward to more "arrogance and douchebaggery" type of stuff.

    But anyway:
    1. I said Liuget is not that good against run. Yet. It's week 1.
    2. You say he must be if the coaches are playing him! (that's circular logic, we could take a poll if you want).
    3. But he doesn't need to be good against the run, just the best all around player available. For that matter, I think he's better against the run than Cesaire. Just that neither are that good. Difference being that Cesaire is a known quantity and that Liuget will improve (another reason the coaches give him more snaps).

    3-4:
    You stated that in a 3-4 a DE's job is to contain the run. That's an accurate blanket statement in the 2-gap, but not necessarily the 1-gap. The DE's primary responsibility in the 1-gap 3-4 is penetration (not both penetration and containment, that's asking a lot for a primary responibility). And sure, we can go back and forth on definitions. But it's like 2 people in an elevator and one farts: everyone in the elevator knows who did it, no matter how much the one guy denies it.

    Independent of that, yes Liuget has made a few good plays in the backfield. Other times he's gotten washed out easily (not as often as Cesaire though thankfully). At any rate, he hasn't been good reacting to the run. But it's only week 1. Almost everything I said in this post I've said in previous posts. Except for the elevator farting analogy. Which I probably won't repeat.
     
  27. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    Well that was a fun read.

    Takeo looked a LOT better in this game than in preseason. And I certainly like the fire. Some questions as to his pursuit but after all - he's 35. Let the younger legs help him some in that area.

    Certainly a tale of 2 different halves. Good halftime adjustments by the coaching staff.

    OG may well be brought back - makes sense, he knows the system. It's Martin's time to shine now. Perhaps OG should have been kept over Cam?
     
  28. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    You act like penetration and containment are mutually exclusive. They are not. You can contain a runner by penetrating into the backfield. OLBs do it all the time in a 3-4--engage the tackle/TE and penetrate into the backfield while keeping the outside arm free to maintain outside contain. 1 gap 3-4 DEs can also contain the runner by penetrating into the backfield.

    I stated that a 3-4 DEs primary responsibility is to DEFEND the run and you responded as if that were not true. You are the first person I've ever heard claim that a 3-4 DEs primary responsibility is to rush the QB. I find that an extremely odd statement and completely unsupported by anything else I've read or heard on the subject. Regardless of whether the DEs in a 3-4 play a 1 gap technique like Pittsburgh or a 2 gap technique like NE, their primary responsibility is still to defend the run.

    I never said that Liguet must be good because the coaches are playing him. That was your misinterpretation of what I said. What I found odd was your assertion that Liguet was starting over Cesaire because he was a better pass rusher when pass rushing is not the primary responsibility of our DEs.

    I get that you fancy yourself some sort of armchair scout. Good for you. But just because you think your opinions are valid does not make them so. If you want to convince people that you know more than professional coaches, your going to have to come with more than, "I've watched a couple games and Liguet is not playing the run well." I've watched the same games and think that he has been quite disruptive against the run. The difference is that the professional coaches seem to agree with my assessment. I don't say that only because he's starting, but because the coaches seem to have gone out of their way to praise Liguet's play. They have not always done this with other 1st round picks.

    What exactly do you mean by, "he has not been good reacting to the run." Are you saying that he's failing to recognize run plays? Or are you saying he is just not using good technique on running plays? Because "reacting to the run" seems to suggest that you think it's a recognition issue. Or maybe it just means you are parroting terms you've heard on NFL Playbook without really understanding what they mean.
     
  29. Dublin Bolt

    Dublin Bolt BoltTalker

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    Liuget is more than capable for me. He is our starting RDE on merit. Looks like Martin will now start at LDE if Castillo is gone. No doubt OG will be back now which is decent depth. It is not like Castillo is a massive loss imho. He is rarely making a play, contrast that with Liuget and Garay yesterday.
     
  30. ntman68

    ntman68 Well-Known Member

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    I forgot what this thread was about... Sigh.
     
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