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Telesco working to extend Liuget

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by matilack, Jun 1, 2015.

  1. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 15m15 minutes ago

    While the focus has been on Philip Rivers & Eric Weddle, #Chargers are quietly working on an extension for DE Corey Liuget. He’s a priority
     
  2. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    Bye bye Weddle. Should get a 4th real soon for the 30 year old safety.
     
  3. Moses

    Moses Can You Stand The Rain?

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    Must admit, I thought Weddle extension delay was down to them wanting to deal with Rivers first, Now they're talking with Liuget, does it give a different message concerning Eric's future with the team?
     
  4. Boltz_from_Oz

    Boltz_from_Oz BoltTalker

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  5. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Admittedly I agree w TT; Liuget and Rivers are a bigger priority than Weddle, combination of importance to the team (Rivers) and young talent (Liuget) are too important to focus instead on someone who could be on downside of career by end of this year.
     
  6. MasterOfPuppets

    MasterOfPuppets Charger fan since 1979

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    If Liuget and Rivers are extended they can always franchise Weddle
     
  7. HollywoodLeo

    HollywoodLeo Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it simply means he may be easier to sign because he's not as big of a name?

    Why let the lower tier guys wander in uncertainty just because you have bigger names to sign?
     
  8. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    At some point there do have to be casualties. And if Weddle continues to expect the kind of (guaranteed) money that top safeties in the league are getting (he's only just this offseason moved outside of Top 5 annual earners at his position) at his age then this becomes, ultimately, a lot like when Philadelphia had to make the decision to let Brian Dawkins go.

    On the plus side, if it does happen, even without underclassmen declares being factored into the mix, the comparison between the 2015 safety class and the 2016 safety draft class is night and day. That's going to affect the market for free agent safeties, which TT could well be counting on as well. Pittsburgh has been the recent example of teams holding onto a player at that position too long because their hand was forced and the final contract they gave him was too much of a burden where they had to beg for him to restructure - and as a result ended up begging for him to retire so they wouldn't have to incur the massive amount of dead money cap-hit to cut him when he was well past it (his prime).

    Speaking specifically to Liuget... TT's smart for trying to act now because it's dangerous waiting until the likes of Wilkerson (assuming he gets it), Cameron Jordan (assuming New Orleans finds the money), and Marcel Dareus start setting benchmarks that - quote honestly - Luiget isn't "worth" unless you're justifying the contract by saying that "we don't want/can't afford to create another hole" - which is how downhill slides start.
     
  9. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Weddle contract situation--more brilliance from Tom F. Telesco. Here's a player that wants to remain a Charger and TFT is doing everything in his power to drive him away.

    Again, I realize it is only his third year as GM, but shouldn't someone explain to Telesco that the goal is to keep the good players and let the crappy ones go?! Telesco doesn't seem to understand that.

    Just way too many mistakes for a GM to make. The guy is not a strong judge of talent, lacks draft strategy skills, lacks vision in free agency, lacks the ability to fit players to our schemes, and lacks the ability to build quality depth. Seriously, does he do anything well as a GM other than sign retread Colts players for too much money while forcing quality players to leave that want nothing more than to stay?
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2015
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  10. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Yeah what Pittsburgh did with Polamalu was impulsive. They approached the contract situation with a fans perspective rather than a business one. Had they been smart, like the Patriots, they'd have at least let him walk if not traded him a la Richard Seymour. I would not have been opposed to trading Eric Weddle pre-draft assuming we could haul in a day 2 pick, as he is now a 30 year old FS with nowhere to go but down, and likely unrealistic contract expectations.

    I also agree with your opinion on Liuget. He's a good player, not a great player, and we should not pay him like a great player unless we have no other option. I also still don't believe that playing in 5-tech is his natural position, so that also has to be considered. What he's got on his side is that he's only 25, and he'll be coming into his prime very soon.

    To be honest, I don't think our defense lives or dies with either player. The problem is at this point in Rivers' career we can't afford to be getting worse at any position, so I think it's likely that we overpay one or both.
     
  11. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I've come 180 on this topic, and I totally support Telesco in playing hardball with Weddle.

    How many 30+ year old DBs are worth $10+M a year? And lets remember, he's a safety not a CB. At this point in his career Weddle has no more improving to do. If his stats go up it's going to be because the 7 guys in front of him are playing better football, not because he's suddenly hit his stride in development. There really is nowhere to go but down, and Weddle knows it, that's why he's trying to force the issue now.
     
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  12. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    You can't hold it too much against him. He's like most fans in that he only sees (or only cares) about the short-term and the now. That's certainly his/their prerogative to do - but I, personally, would rather not see success come at the expense of being flash-in-the-pan.

    In a longer-term (and by that I mean keeping at minimum a 3-5 year window in the picture, which is the likely minimum/maximum number of years we'll get out of Rivers if he's extended) view, paying Weddle what is effectively cornerback money when he's not (and he's not, I love the guy, but he isn't) Earl Thomas - neither in terms of age/in his prime or how he changes the game on the field for opposing offenses (there are about 2, maybe 3, other safeties remotely capable what Thomas does). And while the cap will rise in the coming years it's not going to rise to where we can afford to pay Rivers ~$18-20m per year (which is what he's going to get, if not more), Weddle $10m AAV, and then afford to pay even low-end WR money to the likes of KA, and then afford to hold onto (or sign from free agency) any young pass-rusher we might have breakout for us (you know, since those guys are now commanding ~$15m per year apiece as well. This is the exact situation the Chiefs have put themselves in - and why they're struggling to be able to get their All-Pro pass-rusher under a long-term deal - except that they hitched their wagon to a lesser QB.

    But then... it's always easier to be liberal with throwing money around when it's not your money and there's nothing real tangible consequence for the person doing the spending.
     
  13. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    I wouldn't have traded him pre-draft just because, from a cost/benefit analysis, we wouldn't have been able to recoup enough compensation to merit running with the (sure) outcome that we could not get a remotely-comparable replacement in free agency or the draft (both classes for safety were just plain average-at-best). It sounds trite and cliche (because it's a popular phrase this time of most years) but that's not quite the case next year as there are legitimate younger options and we have considerably more flexibility than we've had in recent years (even if you slice a likely $15-17m off of next year's cap space to assume a Rivers extension).

    On Liuget, it's a combination of things. I do believe he's a more natural 3-Tech than 5-Tech, but we really aren't lining him up directly over OT's all that much. He's been shaded more towards the 4-Tech. The biggest issue for him, I believe, is that no one else that plays next to him (be it on his outside shoulder or next to him on the downed-three) has done anything to demand attention by opposing OL's, so Liguet gets routinely doubled... and held (but then so do A LOT of interior pass-rushers in the league, and the league doesn't bat a lash at that because they're not the flashy "sack artists" that the edge guys are) on virtually every play. I agree, he's not worth what Dareus (though he's got character concerns that will affect his guaranteed bottom line), Wilkerson, and Jordan (assuming he doesn't take a step back from last season's production) should get - but that's why trying to lock him down now before those benchmarks raise the "expectation for pay" by his agent.
     
  14. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Yeah I don't like banking on any future FA class. Players get re-signed, players get hurt, players get tagged, players out price themselves etc... and due to the state taxes we have financial disadvantage over a lot of other teams. Also there is no guarantee next years S draft class will be much better than this one. Letting Weddle walk would at best land us a compensation pick in 2017, assuming we don't go out of our way to sign a bunch of players and nullify the pick as we did with Vincent Jackson.

    Trading him would have made us worse at FS in 2015, no doubt about that, but it keeps the roster developing with premium picks. Maybe a guy like Eric Rowe could have been developed into a S, and been ready to roll by 2016. It's possible that if Weddle had been traded early enough we could have thrown a 5yr/50M type deal at a guy like Devin McCourty, and still had the extra picks. (Obviously a pie in the sky scenario, but possible)
     
  15. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    McCourty wasn't leaving the Pats... and Belichick wasn't letting him leave. I've heard from multiple guys I trust that McCourty and his agent got the max offer they were going to get out of another team (I believe it was the Vikings, but I'd have to double-check) and called Belichick directly to give the Pats the opportunity to match and Belichick caved.

    The 2016 safety class however is deep just at the Seniors, let alone if certain other underclassmen declare. So getting a high-end starting-caliber player isn't even dependent on spending a 1st rounder for a guy like Jalen Mills (who is what so many were trying to sell Landon Collins as) or Karl Joseph (who will benefit from the additional year of development as he's got some coverage technical stuffs to clean up). Guys like Kodi Whitfield, Deon Bush, and AJ Stamps (he's going to fly under the radar for much of the year because he plays at Kentucky, but his name will start creeping up come February/March of next year) all have starter traits and are all seniors with experience facing pro-style offenses and "Sunday players". And then you've got wild cards like Jalin Marshall who is practically a lock to come out (FSU doesn't have a tremendous track record of getting underclassmen to stay of late), though I do think he's very much more of a project than others do at this stage. Instincts are there to be really, really good, but raw technically and needs to show he's not just going to freelance quite so much.
     
  16. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I am not like most fans. Negotiation is part of what I do for a living. One thing you learn pretty quickly in that realm is not to do things that maximize the other side's bargaining position.

    So, let's walk through the Weddle situation with that in mind. Assuming Weddle plays at a level similar to that at which he has played for the past several years, which is odds on, which side's negotiating position is stronger in 2016? The answer is Weddle's is stronger because at that point 31 other teams can bid on his services, driving his price up.

    And for those that have raised the franchise tag, Rivers remains unsigned. Going into free agency with your best offensive and defensive player unsigned and only one franchise tag is a recipe for having to overpay out of desperation or for losing one of the two players. And you can't or shouldn't assume that Rivers will be re-signed until the deal is done. So, right now, you have elite players not signed for next year and the GM should be working on re-signing those players until the situation is under control (i.e., one elite player unsigned for one franchise tag).

    You are also dead wrong about the timeline I am examining. I think Weddle has about 3-4 good years left and Rivers has about 5-6 at most. It is the Rivers timeline that is the period that has my attention because we are unlikely to get another one as good as him anytime soon once he is gone. Weddle is part of the solution, not part of the problem. Nobody is saying that Telesco should do no negotiating and merely ask Weddle's agent what his demand is.

    Rather, what I am objecting to is Telesco's refusal to negotiate with a player that wants to give away his leverage by coming to the table before he plays out his contract. That's an absolute gift from Weddle's side of the table and Telesco is nothing short of an idiot for failing take advantage of it. That is basic negotiating 101 type stuff in which Telesco is getting an F.

    That said, I also disagree with your notion that we can't pay Weddle if we had to do so to keep him. We can and we probably should. I couldn't care less about re-signing Allen, who is probably the most overrated player on our team. The guy is a #2 WR with major speed issues to which opposing defenses have now adjusted. He is entirely replaceable.

    In fact, I think there is a decent chance that it might be addition by subtraction not to have CBs being able to squat on Allen and gum up our short passing game. Really, my best hope for Allen is that we can move him to a regular slot WR role, which I think is Allen's best function. But slot guys are a dime a dozen.

    By contrast, Weddle is an example of a top level safety that can't be replaced very easily. No, he is not Earl Thomas, but he is arguably the next best thing. A GM should sign/prioritize what can't easily be replaced, not what can.

    That's exactly why it has bothered me so much that Telesco let Phillips (top 20 sack artist) go when he could have signed him for next to nothing, let Franklin (run stuffing true NT) go when he could have signed him for next to nothing, and let Mathews (Pro Bowl caliber RB) go when he could have signed him for slightly more than next to nothing. These are all examples of players with well above average skills in certain areas that are/were not easy to replace that were worth way more than the bargain basement prices at which they were signed by their new teams.
     
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  17. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    There is no comparison between Polamalu and Weddle. Polamalu is 4 years older than Weddle.

    Weddle was First Team All-Pro in 2014 and has been First Team All-Pro or Second Team All-Pro for the past 5 seasons. No way in heck is such a player only worth a day 2 draft pick.

    He likely has 3-4 good years left. Yeah, he won't get better because he is already elite. And even if he were to drop off a little, say at the end of a 3-4 year contract period, he would still be very good and likely better than anyone that would replace him.

    But hey, why should Telesco extend an elite player that wants to be a Charger when Telesco can give away his favorable negotiating position and pay more for him later, not get him at all or be forced to franchise him (assuming that we do not need the franchise tag for Rivers)?

    Between Telesco's idiotic draft day maneuvers, idiotic allowing of good/elite talent to walk, idiotic overpaying for ex-Colts, and idiotic negotiating strategies, I am not sure which is worst, but I am sure that all of them are/have been poorly conceived.
     
  18. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    Not 100% agree with everything, but the general point of where u are going with this. Kinda busy, or I would go into more detail. Also Cam Jordan just got $60 mil for 5 years... $34 guaranteed.
     
  19. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    At $12 mil/1 year? No chance
    I don't understand the vitriol in all this period. It's very confusing how things have gotten so bad so fast. And if the team is that upset about Weddle, trade him already. Send him to the Jets for Muhammad Wilkerson or something.
     
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  20. powayslugger

    powayslugger Feckless Slappy

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    I know you need to re-sign guys like Luiget... but that's got to be a kick in the groin to guys like Rivers and Weddle.
     
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  21. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    This is a non issue. It's June, everyone relax. Despite what Acee says, we'll have every opportunity to sign Weddle next offseason. Just read how eager Wes Welker would be to return to New England. Anyone remember how bad those contract talks went? And what about Peterson and the Vikings? How nasty has that been? And look who's coming to OTA's next week, AP. This happens a lot in football because these contracts aren't guaranteed and guys want the security, totally understandable. The problem is the owners hold the leverage (blame the weak NFLPA) and they exert it, also understandable. The fact is, Weddle will be a Charger this year, he will play his heart out like he always has, hopefully he has another pro bowl caliber season and at that time the Chargers can gauge his market value. They WILL be given a chance to offer a new contract or match another teams contract offer. Keep in mind, Weddle is a SoCal guy, his wife and kids have a life here, if San Diego offers up a competitive contract he will stay. All this you're hearing now is frustration, some on his part but mostly his agent's. We've been here before with Eric, I think it will get worked out.
     
  22. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I don't know about that, he pushed the Chargers for every penny on the last go around. In fact I believe there were a few sources who said the deal with Minnesota was as good as done.

    He's proven in the past that money is a big factor for him, and he's handling it the wrong way right now by not showing up to OTAs and going public about his feeling "disrespected." It might be time to accept that Weddle may not be the guy we thought he was. There is definitely a selfish streak there.
     
  23. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    It doesn't change the way I look at him at all. Look, the man wants to be paid what he thinks he's worth, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Especially in professional football where you only have a short window to cash in before your career is over. Not to mention it could be over on any given play. Now, is it the "team" thing to do to show up at OTA's and participate? Sure it is. But this is the only leverage he has right now and he's using it. All I'm saying is next offseason when contract talks kick up again, San Diego will have the opportunity to retain Weddle if they choose. All of this "disrespect" stuff won't amount to anything if ownership ponies up the money to keep him.
     
  24. Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan

    Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the team that was erroneously signing Weddle at the time was Jacksonville.

    http://www.gq.com/sports/profiles/201107/eric-weddle-free-agent-signing

    When I read the above, I see that 12 of the 32 teams were in the money for Weddle. Once they were told what the numbers were, 10 bowed out. That left San Diego and "Team B". Then another team "Team C" gets in the mix claiming to meet/beat other offers. They eventually bow out
     
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  25. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    As I have stated, Weddle is doing the team a favor by being willing to extend his contract rather than waiting for free agency. And Telesco is a buffoon for not taking advantage of it before it gets so close to free agency that Weddle says "screw it" and just waits for free agency to commence. Telesco, yet again, is taking an approach that will force a worse result on the team than one he could likely achieve if he acted otherwise.
     
  26. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    For those calling Weddle selfish and greedy, looks like he is about to end his holdout. It's a business. Definitely not a fan of how we (Front Office) are handling it. In these cases I can understand a player holding out and missing VOLUNTARY workouts for a contract extention (thats not fully guaranteed) when their next contract is probably their last one. I was never a huge EDub fan until his started proving himself the last 4 years or so. He's a team captain, team player, leader and always finds ways to make plays. Still not the greatest tackler, but durable and one of the best man cover safeties in the game. I'd guess and say this wasnt completely about money as it was about years in a final contract to be here. Now with no contract extension coming, Money will play more into it with additional teams bidding for his services.
     
  27. Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan

    Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan Well-Known Member

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    No. He blinked first. He either plays this season, or gets nothing. Read the link I posted. If he thinks he's getting a bigger contract than the last one, Weddle is delusional.
     
  28. Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan

    Carlsbad_Bolt_Fan Well-Known Member

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    Or, Telesco will see how much interest there is in Weddle in free agency and how much other teams are offering. Weddle ain't going to get a bigger contract than the last one. Only team stupid enough to do that would be Jerry Jones & the Cowboys.
     
  29. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    I hope the contract is heavily in the Chargers favor. That 2011 draft produced plenty of All-Pros/Pro-Bowlers and Liuget hasn't done squat.
     
  30. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Phillips was not a top 20 sack artist at the point in his career when he became a free agent. And the Chargers were not in a cap situation where they could afford to overpay for a declining player a la the Broncos.

    Based on your exhaustive post, you sound like a pretty ****** negotiator. You don't pay a player based on past performance. You pay him based on how you expect him to perform in the future. Weddle is pushing 30. He'll likely never be in a better position to negotiate a big contract, and he knows it.
     
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