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The case for Morgan Moses

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by matilack, Apr 18, 2014.

  1. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Just playing a little devils advocate here, go with me while I make a case for taking him at 25.


    OT Morgan Moses, 6'6 315
    Arms 35 1/2" (close to Fluker)
    Projected - Late 1st early 2nd round. (My bet is Carolina at 28)

    This guy is a man child. Very high character and work ethic (from everything I hear), projects as a LT but played some RT and OG at UVA. He's a very good pass blocker with a natural smooth kick slide, I would argue his film is better than Michigans Taylor Lewan. He needs some coaching on technique in the run game, and just experience/awareness at run blocking up field, but as we run a lot of zone it shouldn't be as big of a deal.

    IMHO he is an upgrade at RT, a more capable pass blocker who won't struggle with speed rushers as Fluker does. I don't care how heavy and strong you are, if you have feet like cement blocks you're going to get knocked off balance and lose hold of those quicker smaller pass rushers. Drafting Moses would allow us to move Fluker to his more natural position as an OG, and IMO make him one of the best damn guards in the entire league....and allow us to cut Clary. It would also give us a more legitimate backup for Dunlap, a guy who had 2 (maybe 3) concussions last year. So if worse came to worse we'd have our LT of the future. And if we do stay healthy I don't see why we couldn't have one of the 5 best O-lines in the league this year and going forward.

    All the signs point to us going defense early and often, and I agree with that strategy. But what if we went Moses in the 1st, and Moncrief, Latimer, Adams etc...some kind of legit #2 receiver in the 2nd...what would be our remaining weakness on offense? I really don't see one, our offensive puzzle for the most part is complete! It could also allow us to run more 5-7 step drop plays to stretch the field a little more. I see an offense with weapons like Mathews, Woodhead, Gates, Green, Allen, (Moncrief), Brown etc... That could carry even last years defense into the playoffs.

    Just spend the rest of our picks (and money saved from Clary) on defense, land maybe a Zach Kerr or Phillip Gaines in the 3rd, maybe Aaron Lynch later on, maybe we get 7, 8, 9 sacks or so out of a healthy Ingram and Freeney and I see no reason we couldn't make some noise in the playoffs again.


    So what do you think about this mock?

    1 - OT Moses
    2 - WR Moncrief
    3 - NT Kerr
    4 - CB Reynolds
    5 - OLB Lynch
    6 - DT Bromley
    7 - Best return man available.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  2. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    I have never understood this...he has never played OG in his life, and he's got the length to play OT, especially in Joe D's scheme (he's literally the prototype RT he looks for). Add that to the fact that he really doesn't fit what he likes in OG's, this move would make zero sense.

    Also, i've been saying that Moses was a 1st round talent and a perfect fit for Joe D's scheme since the begining/before the season. He's a beast, but he's never going to be a top 3/5 OT in the NFL, but he's very Michael Roos esque, where he'll hang right around the top 10 for a very long time. Nothing he does is overly spectacular, but he just gets it and he's a guy that just wins battles, whether its just pushing guys past the QB in pass pro, or walling off a DE right in a run play, he finds a way to run.
     
  3. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    So we're just going to put a cap on our passing game? Reality is it's hard to throw deep balls without very reliable pass blocking OT's, and I don't think Fluker is more than an average (maybe slightly above) pass blocker. Right now we live off 3 step drops, quick release, short/medium routes....stuff that is designed to protect the OTs (STUFF THAT NORV DIDN'T BOTHER WITH, and that PR took the blame for) and that's all good, but I still would like to think we could run play action and bomb it out if we needed too.

    Fluker is a good enough athlete (and not far off the size of Clary) moving forward that I think he can handle the zone running game, and he's better at anchoring against power rushers than speed rushers. Tell me we could upgrade at RT and RG in one pick, I'm in.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
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  4. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    A lot of his flaws were technical. If you look up the stats from last year, almost all of the pressure that was caused from his side, even when playing LT, a position he hasn't played since HS, came from either a bull rush, or an inside move. That comes with technical flaws. Thats definitely something he could fix. Thats something that a lot of OT's struggle with early on adjusting to a new level. All Joe D needs to do is get him to trust his length outside and not overextend. That'll help him with the bull rush and inside move allowing him to keep his weight inside and his length will be able to deal with speed rushers.

    He can get much better pass blocker as a RT, and i think it will show in the near future, especially with the type of coach Joe D is.
     
  5. Riff Raff

    Riff Raff BoltTalker

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    Have either of you actually seen him play? I have, since his HS days. Great size, good technician. BUT.... no nasty in his demeanor. He doesn't have that desire to absolutely dominate the guy across from him. Some of that shows when he's asked to block guys at the 2nd level. If his guy isn't there, he doesn't look for someone to hit.

    His uncle works at a large hardware store in Richmond Va. I talked to him before and during Moses' career at UVa. Said the kid is a great person but has never had that nasty demeanor on field. I mentioned SD as a landing spot, uncle said he liked the area from his Navy days but didn't seem to be inclined to recommend the Chargers to his nephew. And he IS a big influence on the kid.

    Is a nasty demeanor necessary? No, but it is one that I very much like to see in an OL. I've watched him for years. I'd be reluctant to call him BPA at 25.
     
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  6. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    I dont really understand what the middle part has anything to do with anything. When you're going to get picked in the top 1/2 rounds it doesn't matter if you like where you land or if someone recommends a place to you...

    He's not really nasty, but Dunlap is far from nasty, and he's played like a madman in this scheme. Joe D puts a premium on players who dont necessarily have to be elite run blockers or pass protectors, but have certain attributes that work in the way he teaches. His scheme puts a big premium on length on the edges, with quicker feet and big guys. Thats exactly what Moses is. In the run game, his OT's dont necessarily have to be able to just drive guys off the ball, as long as their smart enough to see whats in front of them and learn how to create lanes in the running game. If they can drive guys off the ball (Fluker) its a bonus. Basically in this scheme awareness/football IQ trumps pure nastyness/strength to drive guys off the ball.

    As for him at 25, I think that this pick would go under a different category than most people think. He's not the biggest need, or the best player available. But someone i was talking to on twitter mentioned something i thought was interesting. One category that kind of goes unnoticed that has made a lot of teams really good, is "best scheme fit". You see NE and to a lesser extent SF do this a lot, where a lot of their picks were considered reaches at the time, but because of the role they were placed in, they end up being really good players. Thats the category the Moses pick would be. How many people thought that Fluker was BPA last year (though you could consider it biggest need), and he ended up pretty damn good didn't he?

    If we do end up getting Moses, i would have to imagine that the goal is to eventually have him start at LT the season after next when Dunlap's contract is up. In this case, i'd Imagine that he'd start off on the bench, and we'd give him a shot to do exactly what OP said, but i just don't see it happening. Fluker could play OG, but i think that his future is easily at RT, unless we get a change of coaches/schemes in the future. Joe D's scheme is really one that allows for pretty free movement of players within the line on the same side. In Buffalo, he played an entire season with 6'2" Andy Levitre at LT and he played Fluker at LT for a big portion of this season, moving Clary out to RT, and inputting a new RG. So this scheme lends itself to players moving around if needed to put the 5 best players on the line, reguardless of ideal position. So while Fluker wouldn't ideally be a RG, If we had to, he wouldn't have any trouble kicking inside for a short period of time.

    Also i've put an insane amount of time into investigating the type of OL and the breakdown of guys he's brought in in the past, far too much for my own good. Thats why i think that Fluker is a much better fit at OT than OG in this scheme.
     
  7. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    1. I don't understand why Clary is any better fit at RG than Fluker would be.
    2. Worth remembering that Fluker was very poor in his short time at LT.
    3. I think Moses could play 4 of the 5 positions on O-line (and he has said so himself) what do you think of him starting at LG or RG? Keeping in mind he could replace Fluker and Dunlap as needed...

    I agree it's not our biggest concern, I'm just playing another angle here should Fuller, Verrett, Nix etc... all be gone by the time we get up at 25. The idea of our offense going from good to potentially great is very appealing to me, it still rankles with me all the issues we had on the goal line last year and how many W's it cost us.

    Looking at our schedule this year with San Francisco, Seattle, St. Louis, Denver (w/Ware), Kansas City, Baltimore, even the NY Jets our offensive line play could make or break the season, and losing Dunlap again would be a HUGE problem. I don't think going O-line and WR back to back makes us a SB caliber team this year, but the offense could carry us into the playoffs again, and set up the 2015 offseason very nicely.
     
  8. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    6'9" Dunlap said he could play any position on the OL, Moses has as good of a shot as Dunlap does playing OG, which is zero.

    Of course Fluker wasn't good at LT, he hasn't played that position or in a left handed stance a single snap since his HS days if that, and was just thrown in there in the middle of the season because our 3 backups got hurt...

    Like i said, i really like Moses, and he'd be perfect with us if we had an immediate need at LT. But we dont. I just think that we could get a guy like Zach Martin (if hes there), Bitonio or Sua Filo, who could step in and be a very good at OG, and they could all possibly step inside and fill a need to potentially replace Hardwick at C eventually, and get much more value out of the pick. Keep in mind that Martin and Bitonio have the experience, if needed to kick outside as well to LT, as they played there in college, very similar to Levitre. I just dont see how drafting Moses and completely rearranging our OL for him to fit, and when we do that, we're committing to go back and rearrange it AGAIN next year once Dunlap is gone (which i would have to assume he would be if we brought in Moses in the first round).

    Again, i wouldn't mind him if we were drafting him in the 3rd or 4th round, but in the 1st round, i really just cant see the value in committing to completely re-arrange our OL 2 years in a row for it. I'm also a firm believer that Joe D gets something good out of Nick Becton. Also people are discounting Mike Harris as well, who seems like he could be an interesting fit at LG in Joe D's system, who's another guy that if developed properly could kick out to LT in a bad situation.

    Again, the scheme we're running focuses much more on chemistry and awareness/football IQ than it does on having elite players. Joe D has made OT's like Demetress Bell, Cordy Glenn and King Dunlap look VERY good. 2 of which were thought of as random trash before they got to coach D, and all 3 have played like pro bowl LT's under him.

    On his OL that was top 10 in rushing and sacks allowed in Buffalo, had only 1 first round pick on it, with 2 3rd round OG's, and a UDFA (and later 2nd round pick) at LT, and a 5th round pick at RT. He doesn't need a line full of 1st round picks to function. I think we could get a guy in rounds 3 or 4 that would present just as good of a value as Moses would to us in the 1st round.

    I pinpointed Becton last year as a guy that Joe D could target and would really like. This year my guy to watch is Brandon Thomas from Clemson (shame he tore his ACL, but could mean we get him at a discount, and "redshirt" him for a year). People are going to discredit him because he's only 6'3", but he has more than enough length to play LT in Joe D's scheme, and can double as a LG. Also since i think that he already has his project OT in Becton, i think a late OG that could be very solid under him is Groy from Wisconsin.

    But basically, I just dont think he's a guy who presents a big enough benefit for us immediately to pick him in the first round. And i think Joe D likes Dunlap too much to commit to giving up on him after this year. Joe D recruited Dunlap really hard when he was the OL coach for Ga Tech, but when Dunlap decided to go to Auburn, they actually kept in touch and remained really close.
     
  9. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    It's not about giving up on Dunlap, it's about Dunlap having major concussion issues, which Joe D has no control over.

    I'm not going to fight too hard on this point, as I'm still vying for Fuller or Verrett. But you can see what I'm talking about with the offense carrying us right? That's why I liked your mock with Cooks at 25 the other day, although I don't think I could swallow going WR that early in this particular draft.
     
  10. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    Dunlap had 2 concussions before, but i researched it and could not find another previous instance where he had a concussion. Concussions for the most part aren't chronic issues, but can happen if you dont fully let one heal (which is what i assumed happened) you are much more likely to get another one. Once they are healed, usually there aren't lots of lingering effects or much or an increased risk for another farther in the future. If your constantly getting them its a problem, but if a couple happen in succession its more of a person not caring for it as well as the should. I dont expect it to be an ongoing issue for him, but we'll see.

    I'm really starting to think that Roby is the best fit for us at CB. Our FO keeps bringing in these taller athletic CB's like Cox/Ghee and even Crezdon Butler, but none of them really make sense in the primarily off man and zone coverages we ran last year. I think that Roby is a good middle ground, where he's that lanky/athletic CB that our FO likes, but still excels as an off man corner, who is good keeping things in front of him, but still has the deep makeup speed for receivers.

    He made a comment on his lack of focus and insufficient film watching last year, saying that he thought he could get by on his athletic ability and instincts alone, and he really needs to fix that, so at least he has recognized the problem, its up to the FO if they think that he's willing and able to correct it and bust his *** to fix it in the NFL.

    We'll have to see, the more I look at guys, i'm not really too enamored with our options unless a guy like Zach Martin, or a few other guys like that drop
     
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  11. Riff Raff

    Riff Raff BoltTalker

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    The point was to show that A) this passivity is a part of Moses' overall personality and B) that he may well get advice to NOT show any interest in overtures from San Diego.
     
  12. Duffman57

    Duffman57 BoltTalker

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    So because his uncle didn't mention SD as a possible landing spot, he now doesn't want to hear anything more from SD???? I just dont understand....
     
  13. Riff Raff

    Riff Raff BoltTalker

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    That isn't what I said at all. I simply mentioned that his uncle holds sway with the kid and isn't high on SD as a landing spot.
     

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