1. Welcome to San Diego Chargers NFL Football Podcast and Forum!

    Bolt Talk is one of the largest online communities for the San Diego Chargers. We host a regular Chargers podcast during the season. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Create an Account or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

The holdout begins

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Concudan, Jul 29, 2016.

  1. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    53,043
    Ratings:
    +4,979
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...-bosa-report-san-diego-chargers-training-camp

    SAN DIEGO -- The impasse between rookie Joey Bosa and the San Diego Chargers will drag into training camp.

    According to ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter, Bosa will not report to training camp on Friday as he remains unsigned due to his contract dispute with the team. Bosa is one of two first-round selections from this year's draft that remains unsigned. The other is Joshua Garnett, the No. 28 overall selection by the San Francisco 49ers. Both players are represented by CAA.

    A spokesperson for the Chargers declined to comment on the report

    Rookies and veterans are scheduled to report for physicals at Chargers Park on Friday, with the first day of training camp scheduled for Saturday.

    Bosa missed one day of organized team activities and San Diego's mandatory minicamp due to issues with his contract earlier this summer. Points of contention in the negotiations include offset language and the earlier payment of signing bonus money. The deferred signing bonus payment appears to be a bigger hurdle.

    Traditionally, the Chargers have included offset language in players' contracts to protect the franchise from paying a player's full salary in the unlikely event that San Diego releases a player during the guaranteed portion of their deal.

    Offset language allows the organization to pay the remaining portion of a player's salary not covered by the new team that signs the released player. Without offset language, a player can "double dip," receiving a full salary from his previous team along with whatever money is negotiated with the new team.

    The Chargers also have heartburn over paying a portion of Bosa's deferred signing bonus sooner.

    Again, traditionally the Chargers defer or extend the payment of some of the signing-bonus money over the life of a rookie contract. Bosa's camp would like some signing-bonus money paid earlier.

    "It really just comes down to generally this -- there's some things that are negotiable, and money always is negotiable, obviously -- but there's certain things in contracts language-wise, whether you're picked third, 33rd or 203rd, there's certain things of consistency and doing things the same way for everyone on the team," Chargers general manager Tom Telesco said regarding Bosa's contract situation earlier this week.

    "And we're far from uncommon with how we work. I know a lot of other teams probably operate the same way. We try to keep some things constant in everyone's contract, whether you're Philip Rivers or the 85th guy on the football team. So that's kind of where we are. We're still working through it."
     
  2. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    53,043
    Ratings:
    +4,979
    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-training-camps/0ap3000000677847/Chargers-Bosa-still-unsigned

    SAN DIEGO -- San Diego Chargers first-round draft pick, defensive end Joey Bosa, will not report with his teammates Friday as he remains unsigned, according to a source close to Bosa.

    Chargers general manager Tom Telesco confirmed that the main sticking point in stalled contract talks between the club and first-round pick, defensive end Joey Bosa, is how guaranteed bonuses are distributed.

    A source close to Bosa said the No. 3 overall pick would like his bonuses all up front. The Chargershave offered to pay Bosa in two installments, with the heftier amount coming at the first payment.

    Rookies are slotted into a salary scale, so the are very few issues up for negotiation. Where Bosa and the Chargers aren't agreeing on are offset language and bonus payment distribution, which are negotiable.

    With almost every other rookie in the NFL signed heading into training camps, this stalemate has created a bad look for all parties.

    Telesco said the Chargers want Bosa in camp as soon as possible, but its contract offer won't change, he said. Doing something for one player that it won't do for another is not how the club wants to operate, he said.

    Bosa's requests on bonus disbursement have not changed since initial contract talks, a source said. Both sides are dug in and there are no signs that the impasse will end soon.

    The Chargers begin training camp workouts Saturday morning.
     
  3. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    53,043
    Ratings:
    +4,979
    The fact that this now appears to be about if the guaranteed bonus is paid at once or in two installments is so effin infuriating...
     
  4. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    22,294
    Ratings:
    +4,401
    I guess accountants really do run everything. ;)
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    22,294
    Ratings:
    +4,401
    In other news...

    Shetland Pony Breaks Into Pub, Starts Drinking From Beer Glasses
    [​IMG]

    Mocha, a Shetland pony, broke into a pub and had to be coaxed out by the landlord with bar snacks.

    He better pony up for those drinks.

    A Shetland pony named Mocha was horsing around a little too much earlier this week when it snuck into a British pub and starting drinking out of stray pint glasses, according to South West News Service.

    The “unsaddling” incident happened Monday afternoon at the Ascot Arms, a pub in Kent County, U.K., run by Mocha’s owner, Mihaly Herczeg.

    Mocha lives in a paddock near the pub, but decided he’d rather sow his oats inside the pub.

    “He managed to sneak in through the back door,” Herczeg told SWNS. “He just drinks water, but I reckon if he got the chance he would love beer and apple cider.

    “He is not a big drinker, but he does walk around like he’s a bit drunk. But he is very friendly and likes meeting new things and people,” Herczeg added.

    Mocha did drink out of some of the glasses while Herczeg tried to coax him out of the pub using traditional horse food like carrots, and bar food like chips and deep-fried pork rinds.

     
  6. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    53,043
    Ratings:
    +4,979
    Hopefully it was the light crap and not the Guinness!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Andres M188

    Andres M188 BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    60
    Ratings:
    +23
    Man... The reason I got on board with Bosa was because he seemed like hew as going to come in and work hard to be the best he could be... I know this is his agency but I am losing hope on T'eo 2.0
     
  8. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    22,294
    Ratings:
    +4,401
    I'm betting on the apple cider..... Horses love a tasty apple. ;)
     
  9. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    53,043
    Ratings:
    +4,979
    valid...
     
  10. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    17,104
    Ratings:
    +3,551
    It doesn't matter, he's going to suck it up anyway as a rookie, as pretty much all rookies do.

    I think the chances of him being a big factor, much less changing our defense in year 1, are somewhere between slim and stop wasting my ******* time.
     
  11. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Messages:
    14,279
    Ratings:
    +1,886
    Joe Batters is all you need to know.
     
  12. Scott the Rock

    Scott the Rock BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    795
    Ratings:
    +130
    Exactly.
     
  13. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,322
    Ratings:
    +302
    I agree with Scott the Rock and matilack that rookies in general need time to develop, so it is atypical for rookies to have a huge impact right away.

    I would further add that Joey B-L-O-W J-O-B (JBJ) is undersized for his position, a bad fit for our defense (which seemingly virtually all reasonably informed NFL fans outside of Chargerland see), lacks elite athleticism and lacks NFL playing experience.

    If NFL offenses can largely neutralize Khalil Mack in his rookie season, a player 10 times as good as JBJ will ever dream of being and what a legitimate top 5 overall draft pick actually looks like, then NFL offenses should have no trouble neutralizing a rookie JBJ.

    The better question, in my view, is whether or not JBJ will ever be a game changer (in a positive way) for our defense. I continue to question not only whether or not Bosa will be the best player we drafted this year, but whether or not he will even be the best Buckeye the team drafted this year.

    [I can't believe that B-L-O-W J-O-B got censored. How else does one explain how JBJ got drafted at #3 overall? Maybe I should have called him Joey Hand Job since he has a reputation for great hand placement, especially among those in our front office.]
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  14. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    22,294
    Ratings:
    +4,401
    Chargers befuddled by Bosa’s position, but maybe they shouldn’t be

    It’s a holdout about nothing, at least from the team’s perspective.

    With defensive end Joey Bosa, the third overall pick in the draft, officially absent for the start of camp, the team is left to wonder why.

    Per a source with knowledge of the team’s thinking, the Chargers view the impasse as “strange,” given that every penny of Bosa’s slotted contract is fully and completely guaranteed. The franchise looks at the remaining areas of the dispute as minimal and trivial, given that most if not all other players on the roster: (1) have offset language attached to their guaranteed money; and (2) accept a deferred percentage of their signing bonus until March of the following year.

    The problem seems to be that the Chargers are looking at the negotiation from the perspective of team precedent, and that Bosa’s agents are looking at it from the perspective of third-overall-pick precedent. Which is how most agents and teams usually view such negotiations.

    So, from that perspective, it would be just as easy for Bosa and his agents to call the team’s position “strange.”

    The cash-flow issue seems small on the surface, given interest rates. But these are significant dollars, with the team trying to retaining the ability to invest or otherwise use the money into next year and the player wanting the money now. Also, the issue is bigger than when the money will be paid; it’s a matter of the new rookie wage scale giving teams and agents very little to negotiate when doing these deals. Cash flow regarding the signing bonus is one of the few issues left.

    Other players taken at the top of the first round have gotten all of their signing bonus now, or will have it all by October. Bosa is looking to be treated the same way as those players; the Chargers are looking to treat Bosa the same way they have treated other players. (The fact that the Chargers typically don’t draft in the top five could be the primary reason for the impasse.)

    As to offset language, that issue continues to be a matter of cleaning up the worst-case scenario of a guy getting cut before his four-year contract ends. If it comes to that, whether the Chargers pay the balance of the deal or get credit for the low-end contract Bosa would get elsewhere is a small part of the far bigger problem that they took Bosa when they could have had Jalen Ramsey or some other player who becomes great.

    It will be much harder for Bosa to become great right away, if he misses much practice time. And it will be much harder for the Chargers to win at the ballot box in November, if Bosa isn’t great right away. The smart move for both sides would be to find a way to compromise. For now, with team and player dug in on both offsets and cash flow, it’s going to require someone to blink in the name of the greater goals that both sides have for the relationship.
     
  15. ETicket

    ETicket Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,050
    Ratings:
    +367
    This is interesting. I was 100% on the team's side of this issue as I agreed that it would be unwise to give Bosa something that other current players asked for and did not receive, but if the above statement is accurate it would change everything. Does anyone have actual specifics as to which "other players taken at the top of the first round" they are referring?
     
  16. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,322
    Ratings:
    +302
    The bolded language seems deliberately vague to provoke controversy.

    Which other players? How many of them? How many have deferred payments as the Chargers propose to do?

    At the end of the day, it really does not matter. The team has all of the leverage here and it should strong arm this punk into capitulation.

    Mr. JBJ, your options are to sign the team's offer or to sit out the season and re-enter the draft next year and lose the money you would have made and service time you would have accrued.

    And if the team really wanted to play hardball with JBJ, they could have simply said, "Sign this contract before training camp begins or you will not be playing NFL football this year."

    And that is before the more radical remedy of adopting a Todd France (JBJ's agent) negotiation penalty that lowers the offer made in non-rookie contracts to any player represented by France or his firm, making it absolutely clear that choosing to be represented by that firm has its cost.

    The beauty of the situation is that the team is expected by virtually everyone apart from Chargers homers to be lousy and JBJ is so overrated anyway that not having him means nothing to the team.
     
  17. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    22,294
    Ratings:
    +4,401
    I think the question is valid, no matter how many other top picks are involved. The Chargers are acting like they are "surprised" that Bosa's agent is asking for something that other players taken at a similar position have already gotten. Their surprise strikes me as disingenuous.

    What the Chargers may've normally done regarding paying out guaranteed money in the past isn't really the point. Since the new rookie salary cap was instituted, the Chargers never had a pick this high. Therefore, their business as usual manner worked fine for them in prior negotiations. However, when it comes to contracts, the market sets the value. Yes, the rookie cap locks in the base money, but when guaranteed money is paid, is one area that's open to negotiation. Since other top picks have gotten their money sooner, it only stands to reason that Bosa's agent would want the same thing for his client. Nothing "strange" about that.
     
  18. ETicket

    ETicket Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,050
    Ratings:
    +367
    Can't really go forward with any meaningful discussion until the above quote is clearly defined. How many of the top ten picks got their guaranteed money all paid up front? Does anyone know?
     
  19. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    22,294
    Ratings:
    +4,401
    Teams don't usually announce that kind of thing publicly. The agents might, but the teams tend to keep that info to themselves.

    I found this from Kevin Acee today.....

    Bosa can point to the second, fifth, sixth and seventh picks this year, who are getting most or all of their bonuses by the end of 2016.

    Further, a perusal of the contracts of all four of the No.3 picks in the previous four drafts (since the current CBA) reveals signing bonus payment schedules more player-friendly than what the Chargers are offering.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  20. Andres M188

    Andres M188 BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    60
    Ratings:
    +23
    I totally get your point. With that said, does that mean the Chargers have nothing to lose by having him holdout?

    A more wider question for everybody, what is the process were he to hold out for the entire season? Does he really become a free agent or does he have to be redrafted?
     
  21. Andres M188

    Andres M188 BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    60
    Ratings:
    +23
    If this is true, that the Chargers should do as John Malkovich says in Rounders and, "Pay that man his money."
     
  22. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    17,104
    Ratings:
    +3,551

    I believe he'd be redrafted if that happened, but I've never heard of it happening. Taking an entire year off would likely hurt his draft stock, and chances are he'd be drafted lower costing himself millions, especially in next year's class.

    The way I see it, we have little to lose by letting him stew. A few non-contact drills aren't going to make or break his season. Even Merriman (best case scenario for any rookie) didn't contribute much until 8-10 weeks into his rookie season. And Keenan Allen was inconsistent and often out of sync with Rivers until he got a few games behind him.
     
  23. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    22,294
    Ratings:
    +4,401
    What you sighted actually goes against the point you're trying to make. If rookies tend to take sometime to get their feet under them and make an impact, then the last thing you'd want to do is further delay their learning process. The earlier you get them in working, the better.
     
  24. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    22,294
    Ratings:
    +4,401
    Chargers coach on Joey Bosa: “He definitely needs to be out here”
    Posted by Darin Gantt on July 31, 2016, 7:38 AM EDT

    [​IMG]

    With the Chargers and first-round pick Joey Bosa remaining at odds over the fine points of his rookie deal, there’s a growing sense of frustration.

    At least from the point of view of the Chargers.

    According to Eric Williams of ESPN.com, Chargers coach Mike McCoy expressed disappointment that the third-overall pick wasn’t there.

    He definitely needs to be out here as a rookie,” McCoy said as the Chargers opened camp. “There’s no update on his status. [General Manager] Tom [Telesco] made his comments the other day, and it’s the same today. We will just keep working at that, and eventually it will get done.

    “But he needs to be here. I think everybody needs to be here, especially as a younger player for the installations, playing with your teammates — things like that. We are going to coach the guys who are here, and the players who were here did a nice job today.”

    Bosa’s the final draft pick this year without a deal, as the two sides are haggling over offset language and cash flow of signing bonus money. They may be small points, but his side ought to be as frustrated with the Chargers’ position as they are with his.

    Chargers quarterback Philip Rivers, himself no stranger to tough negotiations with the team going back to his rookie contract dispute (which lasted three weeks) said players tried to separate the business from the football, and will welcome Bosa when he shows up.

    “Obviously, you want him here,” Rivers said. “But I also know what it’s like from that spot. It’s not any fun, that’s for sure. You try not to watch the sports and news, seeing your team practicing and you not being out there. I know it’s a hard situation to be in. And when it gets done, it gets done, and he’ll be here and be a part of it. And from what I’ve seen this offseason, he’ll be a big part of it.”

    But until one side budges, it’s hard to know when the defensive end from Ohio State is actually going to show up.
     
  25. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    17,104
    Ratings:
    +3,551
    The point was most rookies are not Allen, Merriman, or even Denzel Perryman; and remember Merriman held out the first 10 days of camp before signing his rookie deal.

    Most rookies have seasons like Liuget, Weddle, Ingram, Attaochu, Vincent Jackson and so on; the rookie season is more often than not their worst year. Having said that Bosa is far more technically polished than most rookies, I'm confident a week or two isn't going to cripple his season, but I don't expect it to be a GREAT season.
     
  26. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    22,294
    Ratings:
    +4,401
    Not if the Chargers insist on sticking to their AJ Smith Negotiation Tactics manual. ;)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  27. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,322
    Ratings:
    +302
    It happened with Bo Jackson. He was drafted by Tampa Bay, but refused to play for them.

    Incredibly, while Jackson was still playing baseball at Auburn, Bucs' ownership told Jackson that they had cleared a flight on their owner's private jet to meet with the Bucs with NCAA. They hadn't. It was a rules violation that made Jackson ineligible to play baseball.

    Because the Bucs lied to Jackson, Jackson swore he would never play for them. The result was that he played with the Royals. Then, the next year, 1987, the Raiders drafted him (in the seventh round no less) and he ended up playing for them and the Royals.
     
  28. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,322
    Ratings:
    +302
    I disagree with your take regarding Bosa. It isn't just that he is a rookie, but it is also that he is undersized at 3-4 DE and that he lacks elite athleticism. Reps will not fully compensate for the latter two shortcomings, though they will help him.

    He can do everything perfectly from a technique standpoint and still lose his matchup play after play because the other guy's technique is just as good (because he's a professional player) and the other guy is a bigger, stronger and better athlete.

    The players you named above (Liuget, Weddle, Ingram, Attaochu, VJax) all had superior physical traits from an NFL player standpoint than Bosa has. Liuget has superior size plus athleticism combined. Weddle has plus speed for a FS and a natural nose for the ball. Ingram has good natural quickness. Attaochu has great natural quickness. VJax is big/strong/fast.

    Bosa simply doesn't stand out the way that those other players do. Being undersized and lacking elite athleticism is a very bad combination of traits.

    I don't expect him EVER to have a "great season". I do think he can be a serviceable NFL player and maybe a little better if he ever finds his way to a 4-3 team after we don't re-sign him at the conclusion of his rookie contract.
     
  29. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,322
    Ratings:
    +302
    Sorry, but this take is ridiculous.

    The team takes the same posture with every player on the roster in terms of signing bonus money. Bosa deserves no special treatment. He should thank his lucky stars that we were stupid enough to take him third overall, which allows his overall money to be greater in the first place.

    As I have said before, if we had passed on Bosa and the Giants didn't take him at #10 overall, he might have lasted until late in round 1 or may have even fallen into the second round. He does not have the value of a top 5 overall pick, so he is already picking our team's pocket.

    And the minority of draft picks (and no Chargers) have no offset language. The Chargers are doing this correctly. It is just stupid not to have offset language in an NFL contract.

    Frankly, Telesco needs to double down on the "AJ Smith Negotiation Tactics Manual" and tell this chump (Bosa) that he has two days to sign his contract and get his unathletic a$$ to training camp or he will not be playing NFL football in 2016. If he fails to sign, the team can just move on. They will not be losing anything of any real value by not having him on the roster.
     
    • Old Old x 1
  30. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    17,104
    Ratings:
    +3,551
    1. What you said here says that you do agree with my take, just for different reasons. I think he's going to have a bad season because he's a rookie, therefore the holdout doesn't matter. You think Bosa sucks overall, because that's just your schtick......and therefore the holdout doesn't matter.

    Lets talk athleticism...

    Joey Bosa
    DE, 6'5 269
    40 - 4.77
    Bench - 28 reps
    10 yd - 1.65
    3-cone - 6.89
    vert - 32"

    Guess the player....
    DE, 6'6 265
    40 - 4.7
    Bench - 13 reps
    10 yd - 1.64
    3-cone - 7.11
    vert - 33"

    I'll give you a hint, he's white, he's got long hair, he just retired, and he's 9th all time in sacks. Jared Allen!

    Let me put this clearly because you don't seem to get it yet. THE COMBINE IS OVERRATED. Michael Strahan was drafted in the 2nd round because people thought he was just a "power rusher."

    I'm not opposed to predicting a player will suck, hell I did it with DJ Fluker because the kid has feet made of solid bricks. You just need to have a better reason than relatively average combine numbers. And honestly, I think part of the reason you're underwhelmed by his tape is he plays the run first and the pass 2nd, especially when he lines up at DT. Perhaps that's more coaching instruction than personal choice, but when he's focused on pass rushing he can beat his man with power or quickness.
     

Share This Page