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The official Philip Rivers death watch thread.

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by ChargerMike, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. ChargerMike

    ChargerMike BoltBruthaFromAnuthMutha

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    The Vikes damn near had him 6 feet under.....but he somehow managed to hobble and gimp his way out of it....lucky bastard. Keep on keep'n on Philip....as you always do....fight the good fight....but unfortunately with no O-line your days are numbered, my friend. You will be in my thoughts and prayers with every dropback....as your demise is enevitable. We as fans could of only hoped and prayed that your imcompetent boss and management would of provided you with quality and adequate protection in your time of need. RIP Philip.....it's been a great ride.
     
  2. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    In Rivers I no longer (unequivocally) trust!

    There you go folks, I have now said it what must be atop some Chargers fans' thoughts by now. In the same breath, I can (if I could care) state over 10 good reasons as to what Rivers is a great QB, but nothing that has not been said before. However, at the end of the day one has to put aside the rose colored glasses and admit that as much a gamer and as much heart as Rivers has for the game / his teammates, he has also been responsible for some losses albeit he has been responsible for for Ws than Ls as with any other "great" QB.

    I can now say with certainty that with his lack and
    mobility and his lack of knack for faking handoffs and some other trickery, we will never win or be able to contend with the best of them because we will never have 5 perennial Pro Bowlers on our OL. Granted that this OL is just plain horrid, but if you are all expecting that an OL worthy of the Cowboys will magically transform Rivers into a Ring winner, you are sadly mistaken and myopic.

    Rivers cracks under certain type of pressure and he has regressed since his earlier and less experienced days at the Chargers helm. No blaming him personally but father time and the
    violence of the game have taken their toll.
     
  3. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Hard not to crack when you are getting popped so hard by defenders that it sounds like a window breaking in the viewers home... ;)
     
  4. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    He had a choice not to sign with this team. I won't refute the reason as to why he is cracking but you can not deny that his lack of certain attributes does not help his accelerating demise either.
     
  5. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    No arguing. 8 straight games with INTs. He needs to control that. There is one INT this season that I label as a good play by the opposing D... The rest... PR17.

    He needs to remember that sometimes a throw-away is as good or better than creating a turnover possibility.
     
  6. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    Wow! The one and only Kellen Clemens fan. Tread carefully folks, this right here is rare specimen.
     
  7. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    Only you would come to that conclusion :roflmao:
     
  8. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    a
    I completely disagree.

    When Rivers is given time, he is arguably the best QB in the entire NFL. His primary weakness is that he is not mobile. So what does our GM do in his infinite wisdom? He fails to get the players necessary to protect Rivers adequately.

    He drafted Fluker, who is a decent run blocker, but not so great in terms of pass blocking. He drafted Watt, a terrible pick when Moncrief was just sitting there for us to take. He signed a so far totally inept Franklin. That's the middle of the line that has been getting killed by opposing defenses.

    Barksdale has been okay and Dunlap has been the best of the bunch, but Dunlap is only slightly above average although good value for a 7th round pick. We just don't know the difference because our OL has been dog manure since at least 2010. That's why some think Dunlap is really good.

    Moreover, where is one friggin' Pro Bowl caliber player out of the entire list of transactions made to get newly acquired players by this GM in three seasons?! Where is anybody that can defend against the run so that we have more possession and a greater chance to build an offensive rhythm? Where is anybody that can stretch the field and get big separation on a regular basis on the offensive side of the ball?

    To me, it looks like we have Rivers pretty much by himself on offense. Gordon is rendered useless by the ineptness of the OL and the bad play calling. Woodhead is a gamer, but certainly is not elite as the poor man's Sproles. Allen is competent and good at initial quick separation, but he has the speed of a dead cheetah. Floyd can occasionally get deep separation, but that is all too inconsistent and he is not the fighter for the ball that a 6'5" WR should be. Johnson is slow and runs free lance routes (by his own acknowledgement). Gates is almost done and Green can't play three games without getting a concussion or even two.

    We have had some real needs since Telesco took over and he has failed to get the talent on the team. He has dumped players that could contribute and has traded up too often, resulting in fewer picks and he has missed on a good number of picks without knocking any one pick out of the park. He has had some solid/good free agent signings, but I think we can see that there have been a lot that weren't so good as well.

    Someone please tell me what Telesco's great accomplishments for the team have been. I see some good moves, but no great ones, not even one among a bunch of really bad moves. That's the single biggest problem we have--we simply are not that talented as a team.

    Contrary to your suggestion, if we had the Cowboys OL, had some run stopping defenders, some pass rushers, and anything resembling an elite WR on offense, I think we would be not just Super Bowl contenders, but Super Bowl favorites.
     
  9. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    Crusher: You have raised very valid points and I don't have the time or the enthusiasm to dissect and direct, but in summary at this point no one is infallible. This includes Rivers behind McCoy who is behind Telesco, but will be the first to be looking for a new gig out of these three.
     
  10. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I only put idiots on ignore...

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    Our O-Line needs an O-verhaul.
     
  11. Ride The Lightning

    Ride The Lightning Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.

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    fixed
     
  12. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I only put idiots on ignore...

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    ^^^If it were only that easy... If you have a company out there, you want to see employee and management discord, and you absolutely want to see it fail, just hire Fabiani as your HR manager...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Slam

    Slam BoltTalker

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    I think as a fan I came into a season hoping.

    I felt like that kid that kind of half assed a science project and knows all the flaws. At the first look, it looked great and I surprised myself how well it was working . (week 1) I thought maybe no one will notice I was BSn and all the problems wont show up.

    I was kidding myself.. (Week 2 - 3) I never fixed the flaws and was hoping no one would notice.

    The more you try the more you will see the flaws.


    Thus vikings game, I was left with a really bad taste in my mouth. I want to be the hopeful fan, but I think without major changes we can forget about it. Looks like we need to wait a few years, and I don't see it being in time for PR17 to be around.

    There is NO WAY this Oline will take us anywhere, can someone tell us otherwise? Why did the 2 minute drill work so well? Why the hell are we so conservative?

    Did anyone listen to McCoy? He didn't even have answers... (Paraphrasing) "uhhh...yeah...we'll have to look at the tapwa, and uuhhh... Yup, have to execute"

    I'm looking around the NFL and keep an eye on most teams, articles from the start about being AFC west contenders, super bowl contenders. Of course everything is possible and id love it, and would love to be surprised that we do it with this Oline.

    As far as teams go, I think we may be one of the bigger disappointments thus far. Only flagging a win vs. A 0-3.

    Sure maybe we'll get lucky and go 3-2 into GB. I'm not going to feel good about it
     
  14. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Two of the INTs this year have been off of the WR's hands. Rivers is getting no time to do anything and that tends to increase the rate of error. There isn't an immobile QB in the league that would be doing any better with the OL that we have in front him and the idiotic nearly constant running for no yards on first and 10 when everyone on earth knows that is exactly what we are going to do. The play calling puts us in second and long all the time, making it more difficult for any QB to succeed. And finally, there has been a bunch of OL penalties further backing the team up, again making it difficult for Rivers to succeed.

    The problem is not Rivers, it is the crap around him.
     
  15. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    One of those two Ints was a good throw and good play by the D. The other one was pure shyte. Behind the receive, who almost made it to the ball. That is all on Rivers. If he is going to take the shot, it had better be on target. Giving the ball back to the opposition is a losing prospect, one that he is getting far to comfortable with, which is backed statistically!

    You want to blame everyone but Rivers fine. Put your rose colored glasses on, and say everything is fine. I choose to call PR17 out for his bad decision making.

    Also stop pretending all the problems are play calling. especially after trying to excuse PR17's INT rate with the play of the OL, that is just disingenuous at best. Especially when PR17 changes the plays at the LOS freely.
     
  16. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I agree that Rivers has made his share of mistakes, but I do not see any permanent drop off in performance.

    Since Rivers was given 4 years after this year, I do not necessarily believe that Rivers will be the first to go.

    Obviously, I think Telesco should be the first to go, but I suspect that it will be McCoy if the team continues to fail to make the playoffs.
     
  17. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I would say the INT off of Allen's hands was partly on Rivers, but more on Allen. The pass was a little behind Allen, but still should have been caught or at least knocked down as Allen appeared to get both hands on it. Allen also failed to recognize where the throwing lane was on that play.

    The INT off of Johnson's hands was 100% on Johnson.

    The other two were 100% on Rivers. Both were bad decisions, but one came in a desperate situation in which the team was unlikely to score anyway. Still, I would have liked for Rivers to have extended the game by making another choice, but I understand if he felt like he had to make a play and was overly aggressive with a forced throw. The end of the half pick versus DET was idiotic.

    I disagree with the notion that being under pressure all the time does not affect how a QB performs--even when he is not under pressure--because it gets to a point where the QB is always expecting pressure and adjusts his game to that expectation which takes away from being able to take advantage of late developing options on any given play.

    The scheme is far too predictable at this point; we lack the athletic ability at WR to force defenses to back off from squeezing us; and the OL typically cannot block long enough for slower developing plays to work. There is no reason for defenses not to put at least 10 players very near the line of scrimmage because the play is almost always a run or a short pass and we have nobody outside that is fast enough to strike fear into the hearts of the opposing defense.

    We continue to draft and sign the wrong kinds of WRs. There have been some great WR prospects that have entered the NFL recently and that have been free agents and we haven't landed any of them.

    And we continue not to stop the run on defense, which takes away from our offensive momentum as well by giving us the ball less. The reason for this is that we have largely not paid attention to the DL in the Telesco era.

    Maybe we could have accomplished some of these things if we didn't trade away pick after pick in every draft and let quality high round draft pick talented players leave and then try to fill the holes created with some UDFA or 7th round castoff from another team.

    We are watching a study in how to destroy a roster unfold right before our eyes like a slow motion car crash.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  18. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Keep making excuses for him if that makes you sleep well at night...

    It shows a distinct lack of objectivity to put all the blame on everyone BUT PR17. I get it, a lot of Chargers fans climbed aboard the band wagon when he was drafted...
     
  19. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Nobody is making excuses for him. I am placing the blame where it belongs. I do not blame the QB when the pass hits the WR on both hands and he knock it up in the air for a pick 6 (which has happened twice). If the WR gets both hands on the ball, he is supposed to make that catch.

    As for the end zone pick versus DET and the late INT versus CIN, those are on Rivers.

    I have simply made the observation that a protected Philip Rivers is arguably the best QB in the NFL. But no immobile QB consistently does well when there is constant pressure from the opposing defense.

    And the trade to get Rivers was arguably the single best transaction in the team's history--3 Pro Bowlers for a mediocre QB. Could you imagine how bad this team would be if we were forced to endure Eli Manning instead of Rivers at QB? We would probably still be looking for our first playoff win since 1994.

    And we were going to take a QB in that draft as Brees was a bottom 5 QB in 2003.
     
  20. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Simple fact. Chargers have 8 turnovers this season for a -3 ratio...

    PR17 has 6 of them... Using all my fingers and toes, that would appear to be 75% of the turnovers.

    If the QB throws off target, and the WR makes a play at the ball and cant get it, you put that on the WR, not the QB... Got it. :rolleyes:

    And your reasoning for this? Because way back when AJ Smith fleeced the Giants to get PR17?! Ok... :rolleyes:x2

    PR17 IS a great QB. ONLY and I mean ONLY when he protects the ball. Right now he is making bad decisions that compound the talent or lack there of, in front of him. It is his job to make good decisions and if need be throw the ball away, rather than give the opposition the ball or a pick 6! If you cant see that, then there is no help for you.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  21. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Do you really have to make a straw man to try to justify your view?

    First, you never mentioned the fumbles at all until the above post. Yes, I blame Rivers for the fumbles.

    Second, the pass to Johnson was in the easily should have been caught zone and pretty much went right through his hands. Allen had to reach back, so, as I said, I would give Rivers part of the blame, but just because a WR has to reach back a little for the ball doesn't mean he shouldn't catch the pass. We are talking about NFL caliber WRs here and as long as the WR in question is not Darius Heyward Hands of Clay, that pick 6 versus DET should be caught by the WR.

    Third, my comment about the draft day trade was in response to your "bandwagon when he was drafted" comment about Rivers. It was not even offered as a justification for anything Rivers has done this year, but as a justification for why many Chargers fans like the turn of events that brought Rivers, Merriman and Kaeding to us.

    Fourth, note the potential to do really well when a team trades back and get extra players instead of trading up and losing draft picks. Amazingly, it helps to get more contributing players when you get to pick more often.

    Fifth, it also helps when you don't let your top RB walk for no money (while keeping an inactive Naked Pictures at the same time). That way, the team doesn't have to burn its top draft pick to fill a hole that never should have existed in the first place.

    As an aside, anyone want to guess which RB is leading the anemic Eagles ground attack in terms of both total yards and yards per carry? I still have the same question I posed months ago for Chip Kelly--what is he going to do when he figures out that Mathews is better than Murray?
     
  22. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    It is not a straw man to refute what you post. Suggesting it is, is what the straw man argument is here.

    I honestly don't care about the hate you carry for Telesco, nor the assumptions you make as to why/how Rm24 left the team. That is history. What is it called when someone tries to deflect the topic of the conversation like that? You are welcome to spew the anti-Telesco fervor all you want, I wont be reading it.

    Here is the INT you say was so easy...
    http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/...Pick-Six/a4b70c8f-960e-4fe8-9c8e-0f897e187fab

    Ball high, catch-able but high... Johnson hit while getting hands on the ball. I don't put this one on either of them, this is the one I rated as a good defensive play. The closest I can come is to question why the ball was so high... But hey, its a catch-able throw.

    PR17 is the ONLY player other than the center to touch the ball on every offensive play. He MUST make good decisions. That does not mean he has to be perfect, but when the team plays from behind, and he tries to force something he should not, it puts us further behind. You disagree?

    PR17 is the only one who can control that. He will lose some balls, that is the game. Losing at least 1 a game, that is a trend, and not a good one. It is a trend that does not help us win.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  23. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    First, the straw man arguments that you made were that:

    1) I am asserting that if a QB throws off target and a WR makes a play at the ball but can't get it, that is on the WR; and

    2) I am asserting 1) above is true because A.J. Smith fleeced the Giants to get Rivers.

    I never suggested either 1) or 2), but you asserted those were my positions thereby creating 2 straw man arguments in one post.

    Second, my discussion of Telesco is not deflecting anything, but is instead an assertion as to the cause of the lack of supporting cast around Rivers on both offense and defense in ways that impede Rivers' ability to perform at his best. Since we are discussing Rivers' performance, why his performance is the way that it is seems particularly relevant and not a deflection of any sort at all.

    I continue to assert that GMs do not have a crystal ball and that the draft is not an exact science, so it is imperative that the GM maximize the number of draft picks by using small trade backs to acquire a couple of extra picks in each draft. That is how the Patriots, 49ers and Seahawks have built up their rosters.

    We do the opposite, which magnifies the impact of our misses (or non-great picks depending upon how every pick in the Telesco era is viewed since there are no truly great picks). We need to stop flushing draft picks and use them to fill the holes that we have. We need to keep our good players so that we do not create new holes. Crap, Mathews was easily one of the best 10-15 players on our roster and we wouldn't overbid the Eagles' lousy offer for him? Teams do not win by getting rid of their best players for nothing in return. These things have everything to do with the supporting cast around Rivers, which most definitely affects how well Rivers does on the field.

    Third, are you kidding me with the video of the pick that went right through Johnson's hands? He shouldn't have caught it because he had to reach up for it? That pass not only should have been caught, but that is an easy pass for an NFL WR to catch. And NFL WRs spend their whole careers getting hit on catches. That has to be a clean catch every time. That INT is 100% on Johnson.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
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  24. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Burlington?
     
  25. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    Just my take on Rivers 4 picks.

    First 1 was the pass behind KA on 3rd on short. I havent watched the replay recently, but from what I recall if Rivers leads that ball KA gets drilled. I think it was somewhat miscommunication on Rivers trying to protect KA and hoping he would sit and just catch the ball. Where he was was already passed the 1st down marker. If he sits in the open area he has the first and is also protected from the big hit. Some blame on Rivers and some on KA since it did hit both hands.

    2nd pick was a God awful throw to Floyd to end the 1st half in Det. Great decision. The match up you want although I would just spread him out wide and run a fade route rather than tight and run a corner route. No idea if the ball slipped, he misjudged the throw or what the hell happen. You never see that throw from Rivers. Blame is solely on Rivers there.

    3rd pick. To end the game vs. Cincy. Rivers trying to make a play. You see 4 defenders in the area, but ultimately that is a 1 on 1 situation. Floyd beats the corner on the outside and the ball is infront of the 2 safeties. Either Rivers didnt expect the LB to drop so deep or he hoped to get the ball high enough where his 6'5 target could make a play, or he didnt see the LB at all. Blame 100% on Rivers, but sometimes you have to try to make a play especially with how our timeout situation is. I dont like the end result, but I dont mind Rivers going to his play maker to out jump a linebacker.

    Pick #4. Underpressure, but delivers a ball to Stevie Johnson. The ball is 100% catchable. Its maybe a little behind, but not by much. That was a straight drop. You can look up the replay if you like. Blame however goes on Rivers first for throwing that ball while in the redzone on 3rd and 10 when it was a 5yrd pass and going nowhere if caught, bad play calling... We already in FG range, lets try to pick up the first and score, The O-Line, but that goes without saying and Johnson for the drop.

    And lets stop hating on Rivers throwing under pressure. This season alone he has put the ball in perfect spots multiple times while getting scraped off the floor.

    Overall Rivers does need to be better! Play calling needs to also be better and play to our strengths. If we feel we dont have strengths then we need to adapt our gameplan and play to our opponents weaknesses. Maybe Rivers does have the ability to change the plays at the line, but damn, that playbook looks pretty light. Rivers is still one of the best in the league and although we dont have a burner, we have crafty WRs, since we not spreading the field wide, with the piss poor, banged up O-line we currently have, how about we keep the TE in the block. Not just chip, but to actually block and have delay routes coming out the back field as checkdowns for when the rush finally gets there (because we all know it will). Rivers with Time equals success, so help the man succeed.
     
  26. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    I can agree with most of what you said Bonzai. I am not hating on PR17, but I won't be giving him free rides any longer (nor the coaches or GM).

    I think PR17 can play better. I am not sure I would rate my posts as hating on him for calling out turn overs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    Rivers has taken full responsibility for his poor play so calling him out is childish at best we all witnessed the games as they were played. Rivers "skill set" hasn't diminished but that of some of those around have never owned such a "skill set". Can't make chicken salad from chickenshit.
     
  28. gonzokrb

    gonzokrb Well-Known Member

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    Without a doubt, need to see better decision making from Phillip. With the non-blocking from the O-Line, why does Phillip not take a couple of extra steps back in his dropback? Hard to throw the ball with D-Lineman hold on to your arm!
     
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  29. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Actually not all of PR17 INTS came when he had pressure. I don't think anyone can argue that the line is not giving PR17 enough time.

    Nor am I trying to say it is all on PR17. He is where I see the first change needs to happen. In a recent interview he even said something very simular about his INTS... so apparently not too childish after all... huh hex?
     
  30. Bonzi Jones

    Bonzi Jones BoltTalker

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    Well I wasn't exactly using the term "hating" towards you or anyone in general. Just saying that we cant give up on Rivers because although his decision making could be better, almost every throw now seems to be under pressure (either from the pass rush, playing from behind or a combination of both) and he hasnt been completely horrible. And until the line plays better, play calling has to be what allows him to get additional time in the pocket.

    And although he have been running this Vanilla offense, we still can move the chains because of who we have if we limit the damn penalties...
     

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