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Training camp 2016

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Hgrove99, Jul 30, 2016.

  1. Hgrove99

    Hgrove99 BoltTalker

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    Please let tell us know what you seen at training camp or post any news in general please!!
     
  2. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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  3. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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  4. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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  5. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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  6. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Well, if those moves are meant to designate where the players actually stand on the team's depth chart, then this organization appears to be completely lost.

    It is unclear why the team chooses to have Sean Lissemore on the roster at $1.75M if they wish to keep him buried on the bench. The team was utterly horrendous at defending the run last year and yet they refuse to use Lissemore where he might actually do some good as a run defender--at 3-4 DE. Instead of making him a stout 3-4 DE, they choose to make him a small/undersized/weak expensive bench warming NT. It's just stupid.

    Philon isn't garbage, but he lacks the stoutness at the line of scrimmage that Lissemore has.

    In what universe does Emanuel do anything better than Attaochu? He isn't a better run defender or pass defender than Attaochu. Emanuel is a reserve level player--period.

    How is Dzubnar ahead of Perry on the depth chart? Perry should be aggressively worked into the rotation as part of grooming him to take over for Te'o as a starter at ILB. He is much more solid and stout when it comes to tackling/run defending than Te'o ever will hope to be and he is every bit as athletic as Te'o, maybe more so.

    He should start for us no later than next year after we part ways with the poor tackling Te'o (unless Te'o signs a very team friendly deal to be a reserve). Dzubnar is nothing more than a special teams player. He should not be getting higher quality reps at Perry's expense.

    In the Telesco era, the team has yet to get the defense right even once.

    Once again, this time in 2016, let me ask the same question that I have asked each and every year--what in the hell is this team doing here?!
     
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  7. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    So, too early for overreactions....... good to see.
     
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  8. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Well, ahead of TC I've decided to take you off ignore for a while, figured it might be good to kick a few chip shots before we get to arguing about the good stuff.

    Lissemore - Is average at best, but there's nobody better in FA and we don't need to release him yet. An injury in camp to someone like Carrethers might lead to him making this team.

    Philon - Fits our 3-tech need perfectly, as long as we're going to shift to more of a real 4-3 he has more value than any DT not named Liuget.

    Emanuel - I tend to agree with you on this point, Atta is the more talented player all around. Perhaps they're just trying to light a fire under him.

    Perry/Dzubnar - Perry is a rookie and it's day 1. This is what they should have done with Gordon last year rather than anointing him literally days after the draft. Making Perry win the position over guys who already know the playbook, is common sense coaching. He should stand out among scrubs like Dzubs.


    Well that was fun. Thank god football is finally back.:abq2:
     
  9. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    At 3-4 DE, Lissemore can be above average versus the run. Philon has been below average versus the run as of the end the 2015 season. That's the point of playing Lissemore over Philon. And nobody is saying that Lissemore is a great player. Sadly, even an average defender versus the run is an upgrade for our defense in that respect versus Philon.

    A huge problem with the defense continues to be its lack of identity. Some of our defenders fit better as 3-4 defenders and others fit better as 4-3 defenders. Our coaches/front office seem to think that that is a good thing. It isn't because what happens is that the defense ends up not being good in either formation. The team needs to get an identity and build to that identity.

    In my view, in the Telesco era, it would have made more sense to build a 3-4 defense because the team already had a number of those pieces in place. But despite having chance after chance to build such a defense, the team chose to go in a different direction--that of this sort of hybrid crap defense that we have been witnessing in recent years.

    Perry is more talented than Te'o but needs NFL experience, so it is okay to not ignore reality and at least make him one of the #2 ILBs, especially since the team is apparently already doing that with Jatavis Brown who was selected a round after Perry in the same draft.

    Dzubnar is a fringe player on a weak roster, a special teams level player at best. He has no business being higher on the depth chart than a talented player like Perry, who we were lucky to get as late as round 4 (rated as a second round player by a number of analysts).

    And, yes, the team butchered the RB position last year--failed to re-sign Mathews for dirt cheap, kept Brown for much more money and burned half a year's worth of draft capital to get Gordon who appears to be not as good as Mathews.

    It would have been better to have kept Mathews and to have allowed Gordon to develop behind him. But even in that scenario, Gordon wouldn't have been made the #3 RB. He would have been the #2 RB, which is what I am saying the team should be doing with Perry.
     
  10. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Brett Bielema (Darius Philon's college coach) swore up and that if Darius had waited 1 more year to declare for the draft and spent his rsJR season developing his body for the NFL he'd have been a day 2 pick, if not a late 1st round pick in the '16 draft. I have very high hopes for Philon to take a big step forward this year, in the same way that Corey Liuget took a huge step from year 1 to year 2.

    As far as defensive identity, I think those days are over for all teams not just ours.

    That is what the team is doing with Perry. The game is faster at this level, and as soon as he learns the playbook well enough to play fast I'm sure he'll move up the depth chart. I'm not entirely convinced Perry will be able to keep up in an open field foot race at this level, which is where Jatavis Brown will have an advantage. Brown however isn't a great tackler, and doesn't have much experience taking down guys the size and speed of Jamaal Charles.
     
  11. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Dividing our ILBs into two groups, regular ILBs (Perryman, Te'o and Perry) and specialists (Brown (passing downs) and Dzubnar (special teams)), Perry is actually both the fastest and quickest of the regular ILBs. He is also big for an ILB (6'4", 254 pounds) and is a very sure tackler, which will help solidify the run defense. I thought he was easily our best draft pick, especially given that we got him in round 4.

    I certainly do not discount that Philon can improve and likely has improved. That said, stoutness versus the run simply is not his strength. In fact, it is his biggest weakness.

    By contrast, stoutness against the run is Lissemore's primary strength (and possibly his only strength). While it wouldn't surprise me at all if Philon is the better overall player even as early as this year, I seriously doubt that Philon is better at this point against the run than Lissemore.

    I am not suggesting that Philon shouldn't play more on passing downs, but I would like the defense to be able to get to said passing downs, which won't happen if teams can ram the ball down our throats in the running game.

    Finally, I disagree with your thoughts about defensive identity. There are 3-4 teams that very clearly look like 3-4 teams (Pittburgh, Baltimore, NY Jets, Arizona, Kansas City, et cetera). And those teams with that clearly established identity are among the best in the NFL in run defense. Of course, they shift personnel is passing situations, but their base scheme and the personnel that fit it are very clear. It isn't the hodgepodge of types of players that we run out there, which has obviously been less effective.
     
  12. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I like Perry, but running speed and playing speed are two different things. He needs to learn the playbook before he can play fast, and still he's so tall that changing direction will never be something he excels at.

    I'll be surprised if Lissemore makes the team.

    You can count the number of teams that run a true 2 gap 3-4 scheme on one hand, and the Ravens, Chiefs, and Cardinals all run variations of 4-3 regularly, as do Rex Ryan's Bills. The 49ers, Titans, and Steelers are the only teams I can recall that run a 2-gap scheme the vast majority of the time.

    Personally, I think teams that try to adopt "true identities" are the teams that end up one dimensional, and get exposed by coaches like Bill Bellichick, or just by a couple key injuries. It's probably why Marty Shottenheimer could never win the in the playoffs.
     
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  13. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    Perry has a solid 10 yard split, better than either Te'o or Perryman, so I think change of direction for him will not be as much of an issue as you are suggesting.

    Learning the NFL game will be an issue for him like it is for almost every NFL player. I agree with you on that point.

    Nobody is suggesting that teams like the Ravens, Chiefs, Cardinals, Bills, Jets, et cetera do not run other formations. What I am saying is that they have a clear identity as a 3-4 team and that they have deliberately accumulated personnel to play in that system. Their players mesh as a unit better than our hodgepodge group, which includes players that best fit in different defensive formations and therefore do not work as well together as unit.

    It isn't a shock that the Steelers drafted Dupree, the Ravens drafted Carl Davis or that the 49ers drafted Buckner. These are all players that I suggested we should take within the past two drafts as tailor made for a 3-4 defense and they were all available at value appropriate times of the draft such that they all would have been good picks and we passed on all of them because, unlike those other teams, we are not trying to accumulate good 3-4 personnel. That's a problem. We will never be a good 3-4 defense if we refuse to draft good 3-4 players when they are available to be drafted.

    Further, I think there is a very good argument to be made that Marty lost in 2006 because he went away from his identity, gambled unnecessarily and lost because of it. You don't need to gamble when you've got the best team. Some boneheaded plays from a number of players didn't help either, but there was some strange coaching that January 2007 day from Marty.

    Since they virtually never used Lissemore correctly, they might as well save the money and let him go, but it would be wrong to think that he is not in the discussion as the best run stopping 3-4 DE on the roster (it is either him or Liuget).
     
  14. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I only put idiots on ignore...

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    Anyone take pictures of yesterday's training camp scene?
     
  15. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Stevie Johnson already down for the count.

    MRI results on right knee tomorrow: Per Meekoy.
     
  16. Hgrove99

    Hgrove99 BoltTalker

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    Damn it!!
     
  17. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I only put idiots on ignore...

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    Just a minor wound...

    monty-python-black-knight-SM.jpg
     
  18. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    So, this year the O-line holds up, but all Rivers' targets go down. Sounds like a likely scenario. ;)
     
  19. Chargefwd

    Chargefwd BoltTalker

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    Oh God, No!
     
  20. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I don't wish bad things for Johnson, but I think his injury helps the team as there are more explosive options on the roster that can take advantage of the injury if Johnson is out for any length of time. Johnson and Allen is just too much "slow" at the same time when they are on the field together.
     
  21. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Chargers Training Camp Notes: August 1, 2016
    By Garrett Sisti@GarrettSisti


    It was Day 3 of Training Camp and the team's first padded practice and we learned the extent of Stevie Johnson's injury and we found out that Bosa's camp and the team haven't talked for days but let's get to what happened today on the practice field.

    Offense
    We'll start off with a video, well multiple videos, of Melvin Gordon struggling again today. First, here is Gordon in drills getting stood straight up by a stationary object on a spin move. It happens on his second rep:

    RB Drills pic.twitter.com/7XFyv25YNy
    — Garrett Sisti (@GarrettSisti) August 1, 2016

    Here is Gordon having issues pass blocking:

    28 still working through some things on pass pro pic.twitter.com/tVZ1H53Kn9
    — Judson Richards (@Judson1360) August 1, 2016

    That's it on Gordon today. He did break off a nice long run all set-up by a lane clearing block by D.J. Fluker.

    With Stevie Johnson out for a while WR Tyrell Williams got the start in his place when the Offense ran 3 wide outs. By the end of practice Keenan Allen and Tyrell Williams ran close to the same amount of snaps working out of the slot. Tyrell Williams made a sideline catch on Craig Mager for a big gain. Williams has been impressive ever since Mini-Camp and Dontrelle Inman, who many assumed would be the forth wide receiver on the depth chart, has been relatively quiet throughout camp.

    Since we're talking about wide receivers Travis Benjamin and Keenan Allen were the only two players out there to return punts in Special Teams drills today. Also UDFA WR Dom Williams made a great diving catch on a terrible throw.

    The Offensive Line showed out today in 1-on-1 drills, outside of Kenny Wiggins who was visibly upset when he got beat. Tyreek Burwell stonewalled Tourek Williams and Tyler Johnstone put a defender on the ground today. O-Line beat the D-Line in Monday's practice.

    Hunter Henry showed off his great hands today extending for a completion down the sideline on tight coverage from safety Adrian Phillips. I haven't seen Henry drop a ball thrown his way, in Rookie Mini-Camp, the team's Mini-Camp or any day of Training Camp thus far.

    The Quarterback play continues to be awful. They ran a fun drill where the QBs had to throw over the goal posts and into a net. Rivers and Bercovici tied, Clemens and Mettenberger couldn't even hit the target. Errant passes galore. Rivers and Bercovici had to have a tie-breaker to see who won today, here's the video:

    QB drill Bercovici & Rivers tied for most makes. Here's the tie-breaker, Berc not happy pic.twitter.com/P56bAR0bZ7
    — Garrett Sisti (@GarrettSisti) August 1, 2016

    Defense
    Denzel Perryman did not practice today but in his place at Inside linebacker was Nick Dzubnar and Jatavis Brown, with Dzubnar getting the bulk of the looks between them. Dzubnar is the "veteran" who knows the system so it's not a shock that he's getting the nod but if Jatavis Brown keeps playing like he does, Brown will jump Dzubnar on the depth chart in no time. Not to say Nick Dzubnar has played bad, Brown flashes with more playing time. Pagano sent Brown on a blitz and he blew threw the line so fast he met Clemens for a sack at the top of his 3 step drop. He was playing downhill all day. Staying on the inside linebacker group, fellow rookie Joshua Perry had a would be a sack and UDFA ILB James Ross had an interception today.

    The young "McSafety" duo of Dexter McCoil and Adrian McDonald had another good showing today. McCoil got a strip and McDonald recovered the fumble. McCoil got a good break on a ball for a pass deflection and McDonald came off the edge for a tackle for a loss, except without the tackle of course.

    It might sound like I'm picking on him but I'm not, Craig Mager is getting roasted in practice. He's not just giving up a completion here or there, he's already given up a TD to Williams and Benjamin and today he was beat for a big gain by Tyrell Williams and took an awful angle on tight end Jeff Cumberland for another big chunk play. It's a real concern early in camp, he might be having the worst start to camp of any other player.

    CB Brandon Flowers played inside all day again and made a great play on a ball for an incompletion vs. Keenan Allen. He's been quiet, hasn't given up much of anything so far. Let's hope we can continue that through the rest of camp.

    The team ran a lot of two tight end sets again today and Kyle Emanuel got most of the reps over Jeremiah Attaochu. It stayed that way most of practice, which mirrored Day 1 of camp.

    That wraps up Day 3 of Training Camp, feel free to ask me about other guys but there are 90 players on the field so there is a really good chance that they just haven't done much to stand out.
     
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  22. Blitzy

    Blitzy Spanos Chargers Troll

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    No worries, Melvin Gordon had trained with Adrian Peterson so it's all good :rolleyes:
     
  23. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    "No son, you have your weight too low...... Carry the ball high... Like this!" ;)
     
  24. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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  25. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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  26. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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  27. Jesse Kemp

    Jesse Kemp BoltTalker

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    The most recent depth chart lists Kyle Emanuel as the starter inn the 3-4 at SOLB. For years now, I've expected Ingram to grow into that role full time as he seemed suited to it. However, last season he cut weight and looked much more suited to the WOLB where the coaches currently have them. Attaochu, although admirable in run defense, is also more of a WOLB player who relies more on speed than power. So it would make sense that both of them would now be listed on that side, with Emanuel technically being the starter on the other. He has the most natural power of the bunch and the best skill set for setting a strong edge in run defense. He has always played around 255, and is a very underrated athlete. He had well above average results in nearly every athletic drill at the combine among defensive ends. As a talent, he was a top 50 player. But being an FCS product, he fell to us in the 5th (not unlike Jatavis Brown in this past draft). I think he'll prove to be a steal.

    In the end I am expecting a heavy rotation, with each player getting at least 60% of the defensive snaps when all are healthy. It's been a long time since we had three viable players at OLB at the same time. Feels nice.
     
  28. Bruce Daniel

    Bruce Daniel BoltTalker

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    I hate to say this, but any clips I've seen of Gordon in camp have been underwhelming to say the least. I'm not necessarily surprised, as I think you can tell with backs fairly quickly if they're gonna bust, but I'm more pissed that we didn't draft or make more of an effort to bring in another running back. We've been down the Brandon Oliver road before and I don't care to travel that again. Rooting for Melvin, hope he puts it together and proves me wrong, but I'm just not seeing anything special to this kid.
     
  29. woodeye

    woodeye Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts exactly. Maybe Farrow or Swain can give us something to go with Woodhead.
     
  30. Frozendisc

    Frozendisc BoltTalker

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    It won't matter who is the RB until they actually fix the problem, which is clearly the o-line. Let's get serious here, these guys made up the worst o-line in the NFL last season, so by all means throw out the injury excuse as justification, and bring them all back for a run at 2-14......beyond stupid.
     

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