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Turner not elite, neither is team

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Heir Coryell, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. Heir Coryell

    Heir Coryell BoltTalker

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    San Diego coach Norv Turner was correct when he said this isn't last year's team after the Chargers' 27-3 loss to the Falcons. San Diego had 23 players on its 53-man roster Sunday who weren't on the active roster at the end of last season. Therein lies the problem.
    Despite roster turnover, Sunday's loss fit the blueprint of nearly every Chargers loss under Turner's leadership. If it's not the players, then it must be the coaching.
    Turnovers, costly penalties, poor protection, an inability to get pressure on opposing QBs and a failure to come from behind have been the ingredients of nearly every Chargers loss under Turner. All were prevalent Sunday, and on Monday, Turner identified those elements of the game as key areas for improvement.
    “I am as upset as anyone in San Diego,” Turner said. “I don't like going out and having our team perform the way we performed. It happened. We are going to fix it. We are going to do everything in our power to fix it.”
    Every year under Turner there have been fixable problems and yet they keep occurring, no matter who the players are on the field.
    “[The mistakes] are similar in every loss,” QB Philip Rivers said after the game. “When you lose, this is what happens. This loss is no different than any of the 50 losses we have had since I have been here. The score is different, but you lose because you turn it over. You lose because you didn't play well.”
    If you lose because you didn't play well, you lost because you beat yourself. Elite teams generally lose because they get beaten by another elite team coached by an elite coach. The Chargers have had the talent under Turner but have failed to be an elite team because they have continually beaten themselves.
    Elite teams also find a way to come from behind to win. The last time the Chargers won or tied a game with a last possession touchdown was Week 9 of 2009 vs. the Giants. An elite coach makes the necessary changes at halftime, and his team responds by playing smart football in the closing minutes of the game to pull out a win. When the Chargers fall behind, their propensity for making mistakes only increases.
    “I don't think [poor play when behind] is unique to us,” Turner said. “Other teams get in that situation when they get behind. They have a tough time protecting the ball because people are turning it loose and that type of thing.”
    Other teams, however, find ways to win. The Broncos repeatedly came from behind and won last season with Tim Tebow as their quarterback. Meanwhile, Turner has Rivers. The Chiefs did it Sunday trailing the Saints 24-6. “They really cranked it up in that fourth quarter,” Rivers said of the Chiefs' comeback.
    Turner is not an elite coach, and the Chargers are not an elite team. A Turner-coached team continually repeats its mistakes and Turner has shown an inability to lead his teams through adverse situations during games.
    This doesn't mean that Turner isn't a good coach. Through roster turnover, Turner has the highest winning percentage (.606) of any coach in Chargers history. With one more win, Turner (113) will tie Don Coryell (114) for most career wins. Coryell belongs in the Hall of Fame for his contributions in changing the game of football.
    The best coach in Chargers history was Bobby Ross. He led the Chargers to the Super Bowl in 1994 with less talent than most of the Chargers teams coached by Coryell and Turner. That team didn't make excuses. It just found ways to win.

    Despite Sunday's all-around miserable team performance, Rivers insists all of the Chargers goals for this season are still obtainable. “The only thing we lost yesterday was the chance to win every single game we played,” Rivers said. “Nothing else can we not accomplish.”

    If the Chargers are to reach their goals of making the playoffs and ultimately winning the Super Bowl, then a seismic shift must occur with Turner as a leader. Championships are not built on the excuses made from repeating fixable problems.


    This from MacClellan of CBSSports - hits close to home doesn't it?
     
  2. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    Not to encourage the usual de-evolving marty vs norv shitstorm, but this
    is freaking lame (unless being average is the target here--the Bolts have been nailing that one).
     
  3. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I hate to undermine the entire premise of a new thread, but is anybody,
    and I repeat ANYBODY actually arguing that the Chargers or Norv are elite?!?

    The team was 8-8 last year which is pretty much as average as is statistically possible.

    The argument re. Norv has always been "Is he a horrible head coach? (aspiring to disprove that label)"
    I've defended the man from blind "He's awful, look (only!!!) at his Redskins/Raiders record!" nonsense,
    but I've never argued that he was among the NFL's best. Of course, Belichick is probably the only
    coach I'd say has earned "elite" (and even he has had some huge blunders).

    The ESPN Power Rankings put the Chargers at #15 at the beginning of the season.

    Anyone whining about feeling let down that the Chargers or Norv aren't currently
    considered "elite" is either not paying much attention, or not Choc full o' reality.

    The latest ESPN ranking has the Chargers at #13...I absolutely hate the way the Chargers sucked against
    the Falcons, but I do enjoy having a better record than the NFL's recent elite (Saints, Steelers, Pats & Packers)

    p.s. I realize that some are already designing Jim Harbaugh's bust for Canton...he's off to a great start, but hey, Ryan Leaf started 2-0 :) Average Expectations.jpg
     
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  4. Choc Tolbert

    Choc Tolbert of The Antagonist

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    Week 3 and already, same **** different season.

    Not feeling good about our 2-1.

    Sent From My Grandmother's Dial-Up Internet
     
  5. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    I would argue the Jaguars are not an elite team to!

    Or the Vikings! Grrrr.

    #NoShitSherlock
     
  6. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Welcome to the forum... Thank your g'ma for the use of the dialup...
     
  7. SayOw

    SayOw BoltTalker

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    This past weekend's loss, I thought, was predictable as I think most long time Charger fans did as well. I know the rose colored glasses wearing Charger fans had this team penciled into the Super Bowl before the season started, whereas I am hoping they can get to 6 wins and not be embarrassed like this past weekend on a consistent basis but won't be surprised if they do.
     
  8. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Absolutely!!
    And I for one don't let the fact that few (any??) of those "long time Charger fans" actually
    predicted such a result, slow me from declaring that they (secretly?) knew it was coming. ;)

    And that damned "rose colored glasses" group was equally sneaky: refusing to actually
    say what we know they were secretly thinking: "Chargers are a Super Bowl lock!!"

    So yes, the fact that neither of these supposed camps ever said any such thing, is the only
    proof we need to confirm that unnamed people truly believe those things.

    Of course, one way to not stress over the Chargers being publicly humiliated is to take up
    bowling or writing (more) fiction. :)
     
  9. SayOw

    SayOw BoltTalker

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    Point taken and I completely understand your take... I'm a user that is relatively new to posting on these forums (long time lurker) so my take may not be readily received...

    I am the disgruntled Charger fan, but a loyal one. Since '80 I have lived and died the Chargers.

    You can click on me to find my blog if you want, but that gives you 8 years of my takes on the Chargers... I'm not asking anyone to read through it all, but if you don't think that I don't care about the Chargers and the state they are in, I think you are mistaken..

    And I really don't want to make anything about "predicting" anything...but I just, maybe poorly worded, wanted to say that I could see this coming and I thought it was fairly obvious.

    I apologize for the obtuse "doom and gloom" attitude ... it is getting old and I guess if we are all secure in knowing what we are in for, I can refrain from the hyperbole.
     
  10. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I wasn't trying to give you a bad time, but re-writing history is a pet peeve of mine.
    No one...not even YOU...was saying the Falcons would blow out the Chargers...
    so your after-the-fact "Well, it's no surprise" remark cheesed me off...I don't think you
    really get to play that card unless you actually had said something like that BEFORE the game.
    If it really was obvious to you that the Falcons would destroy the Chargers, in San Diego,
    you're a genius who should be sharing your vision before the game.
    So, what's going to happen in KC?
     
  11. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    From his blog
    He might have got the order of events wrong, but I'd say that was a pretty good prediction for 9/5/12
    http://sayow.blogspot.com/2012/09/nfl-season-kicks-off-charger-predictions.html
     
  12. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    I would argue we don't have any "Elite" players either. What we have are highly overrated or over the mill players. As well as over reached rookies.

    We need a better foundation and that starts with the top.
     
  13. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    I wasn't aware I was supposed to be running out looking for posters' posts on other sites... :rolleyes:

    Okay, I'll play along...I'm looking at the blog:
    He says Chargers will go 4-12.
    Chargers lose opener to Oakland. Non-commital on the Titan game.

    Falcons: Nothing about how much the Chargers will score (?!?), just that Michael Turner will be
    so successful early (???), facilitating Roddy White (5 catches, 11 yard ave.) to destroy them with (0) bombs.

    I'll leave it to others, re. how accurate those predictions have been.
     
  14. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Yes you probably would. Of course it would appear to me that you look like this...
    [​IMG]
     
  15. FCBolt

    FCBolt Well-Known Member

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    He cited it and you quoted said citation. And then you told him he didn't make any predictions relative to the game 'BEFORE the game'. That was kind of bizarre, even for you. :D
     
  16. SayOw

    SayOw BoltTalker

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    True. On these forums my comments are purely "off the record" and unsubstantiated. I do have my thoughts about the Chargers and this season posted elsewhere and I did post that link after the fact, even though accurate and from 9/5/12 :) .

    I first would like to reiterate that I don't want to get into a "predicting" contest. Who knows who is reffing the game this week and if Ed Hochuli is back, I think the Charger chances diminish even more. And I would also like to say and, most importantly about my outlook for this season, I hope I am wrong. I hope I can come here each week and write about what an amazing game the Chargers had in a victory over their latest opponent.

    If you think all is well with the Chargers team this year you are not alone. There a lot of Charger fans that think things are going just swell now and the next stop is the Super Bowl. That just isn't me but I am willing to be proven wrong and hope the Chargers do so. If the Chargers cook up the crow, I'll be more than happy to eat it.

    Go Chargers!
     
  17. SayOw

    SayOw BoltTalker

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    To paraphrase my comments in that post you are referring too:

    Oakland was a coin-flip - which is what I say about most every game week 1 in the NFL.
    Titans likely win.
    Atlanta: I apologize for not going into more detail about the blowout.

    KC - I give Chargers 1 in 4 chance. Road game and Norv don't mix regardless of how bad the competition is.

    I have the Chargers at a hopeful 6-10.

    And, again, all posted 9/5/12 ... so even I am waiting for my "predictions" to go wrong.
     
  18. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    No, no, no. I initially took issue with his assertion that "long time Charger fans" expected a
    blow out. Since I read a bunch of posts here, and couldn't remember a soul (including him) posting
    that BEFORE the game I pointed that out the lack of 'Falcon blowout' posts.
    He was posting in BoltTalk...I was talking about BoltTalk.

    You since cited a different site, which I gamely visited to see if his prediction was fuller or as accurate
    as you suggested. I have no problem acknowledging that his prediction, on the other site, came long before
    the game. But it says nothing about a blow-out...what little it does say (early Turner run success, Roddy bombs)
    is dead wrong. It suggests a very high Falcon score (turns out it was 6.5 less than their average)
    but nothing about margin of victory. Did he expect a 44 to 37 game? Possibly. Did he envision the Falcons
    winning by so much? Maybe he did. But it's not in that prediction.

    What was clear was not terribly accurate...as to 4-12, at least that's a clear, verifiable prediction...
    and, well, if the Chargers go 2-11 from here, he'll have my personal congratulations on getting one right.
     
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  19. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Dude, no need to apologize. We're good. You seem like a nice guy. And I too hope your "4-12" is very wrong.
    Short, cryptic predictions can be interpreted any number of ways...especially after the fact.
    I'm really not trying to sound harsh...it's just that--after the fact--that one can read your Falcons prediction
    as insightful and successful, or one can read it as horoscope-style cryptic, with what is clearly
    stated, easily disproven by the facts of the game. I'm not questioning what was or wasn't in your head...
    merely pointing out that "blowout" wasn't stated (or even clearly implied) in the prediction.

    As far as the "Super Bowl" comments: I'm guessing you're getting that someplace else?
    I can't think of a single poster here who has claimed that all is roses in Charger-land
    and a Super Bowl is inevitable...or even likely...maybe remotely possible, at best...
    (hey, if the 9-7 Giants can land one...)
    I've certainly never said any such thing. Are you hearing that kind of talk on some other site?

    p.s. The blog clearly says 4-12...you are clear that you "...DON'T see 6 wins"
     
  20. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    Upset tummy, or constipation? ;)
     
  21. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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  22. SayOw

    SayOw BoltTalker

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    Understood.

    I didn't see 6 wins before the season started, but I think it is possible now and with the parity in the NFL, who knows...

    I think 6-10 is possible, you can still hold me accountable for "predicting" 4-12 before the season started, but as I always and will continue to state, I hope I am wrong...
     
  23. SayOw

    SayOw BoltTalker

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  24. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Again, dude, I don't claim to know what's going on in your head (or anyone else's).
    But when people say they made predictions, and invite you to verify, there's really
    no room to get mad at them for citing the writing. If you don't like or agree with what
    you wrote earlier this month, no problemo, but it might not be a good idea to send people
    to look at it, and then quarrel with them for mentioning it.
     
  25. SayOw

    SayOw BoltTalker

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    I agree... I've stated more than once I didn't want this to get into a "predicting" game...but if you are going to hold me accountable for my predictions, I at least want them accurate. And you also jumped on me for not making the "prediction" before the game, which I verified (sending people to look at) I did - and I didn't make it easy (relatively speaking in internet terms), so if you really wanted to "burn" me you had to work for it (again, relatively speaking) ... and then that prediction wasn't accurate enough and now we quibble over nothing, imo.

    I'm willing to let it go if you are...
     
  26. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Well, there was no prediction here, where we were discussing it (I don't pretend to read all internet blogs).
    We have established that you did make a prediction elsewhere...and, in your mind, you feel you
    had predicted a (unstated) blowout...though, no, I'm not reading that line as a terribly accurate prediction.
    It's no big deal. I'm not sure what you mean by holding you "accountable." I'm not really up for routinely
    fact-checking posters. If, however, a week from now, you say: "The outcome of this Chiefs game was obvious!"
    (you are on the record as predicting a Charger loss, yes?) and are eager to to have people know you were right,
    I will gladly verify any prediction you'd like me to. :tup: Otherwise, yes, I'm happy to call "case closed" on this chapter.
     
  27. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Dude, there's an app for that!

    Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil.jpg

    (In all seriousness, I'm guessing you feel that one negative post after another
    --re. this 2-1 team--is somehow just having the guts to "tell it like it is..."
    but, really, you don't have to produce a dark cloud for every silver lining)
     
  28. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    Obviously you aren't in the building trade.
     
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  29. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    "What we have are highly overrated or over the mill players."


    Is Rivers truly over the mill?

    Rivers.jpg

    Mill.jpg

    :eek: :oops: :eek: :oops: :eek:
     
  30. Buck Melanoma

    Buck Melanoma Guest

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    WTH is over the mill? I've heard run of the mill & over the hill, but never over the mill.

    Also wondering - if this squad is so mediocre, how can Norv or anyone else be expected to achieve anything more than mediocrity?
     

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