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Turner will wish he would have stayed in San Francisco

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Concudan, Mar 25, 2007.

  1. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    One formula for success is to be realistic about both your strengths and weaknesses and then put yourself in a situation where you can maximize the first and minimize the second.

    Somebody should tell Norv Turner that. Failing twice as an NFL head coach hasn’t yet convinced Turner he can’t do it. He tried for the Dallas job after Bill Parcells left but was passed over for Wade Phillips. Then, when Marty Schottenheimer shockingly was fired in San Diego, the Chargers chose Turner.

    In Turner’s first two jobs, he worked for probably the most demanding owners in the NFL, Dan Snyder and Al Davis. He got the job in Oakland only because no successful coach, pro or college, wanted it.

    I can’t speak to what happened in Washington because I wasn’t there. I did watch Turner in Oakland and, though I wanted him to succeed because he’s a truly likeable person, I concluded that he just isn’t cut out for the job of head coach.

    Interviewed on a L.A. radio talk show recently, Jerry Rice said Turner was the worst head coach he’d played for. Rice did play for some outstanding head coaches — Bill Walsh, George Seifert and Mike Holmgren. He also played for Bill (“We must be the dumbest team in the league”) Callahan, who had the worst season I’ve seen from an NFL head coach until, well, Art Shell, the most recent Raiders coach.

    Though everybody talks about the great talent he will be coaching in San Diego, I think Turner is walking into another situation where he has little chance of looking good. Schottenheimer got fired after a 14-2 season. Turner can exceed that only by at least getting to the Super Bowl. In the AFC, which is by far the stronger conference, that’s not easy. At least three AFC teams were clearly superior to the NFC champion Chicago Bears this past season.

    And Turner is also walking into a situation where the general manager has the owner’s ear, which is never good for the coach. Walsh many times has outlined this scenario for me. “The general manager sits up in the owner’s box and, when things go bad on the field, tells the owner (that he) got him the players but he’s not doing a good job of coaching them. And, soon, the coach gets fired.”

    From his coaching job at nearby Stanford, Walsh had seen what happened to the 49ers in 1977-78, when Joe Thomas was general manager. Thomas ran through three men who were head coaches in name only because he was calling the shots. The 49ers nearly had made the playoffs in 1976 but, with Thomas at the helm, plunged to 5-9 and 2-14 seasons, before Eddie DeBartolo fired him.

    Walsh was his own general manager, of course. In theory, when he was hired as a coach, he was going to find a general manager. He later claimed that because the 49ers were in such disarray, he couldn’t find a competent man to take the job and had to assume those duties himself. In truth, he *didn’t look very hard, because he always wanted to have total command.

    Few coaches ever have that kind of authority. Certainly, Turner will have no control over his destiny in San Diego. He reportedly lost his chance at the Cowboys job because he insisted on at least having control of the offense, which owner Jerry Jones had entrusted to the heir apparent, Jason Garrett. I doubt that Turner made any challenges to Smith’s authority when he interviewed for the Chargers, so his fate will be in Smith’s hands. Good luck with that, Norv.

    As soon as Turner was through as Raiders head coach in early 2006, 49ers head coach Mike Nolan hired him as the team’s offensive coordinator. That’s a job at which he truly excels. He did such a good job in grooming Troy Aikman at Dallas that Aikman had Turner give his presenting speech for the Pro Football Hall of Fame last summer.

    When I interviewed Turner last spring about the 49ers job, he looked as if the weight of the world had been lifted from his shoulders. He was back doing what he’s best at, and he talked enthusiastically about the plans he had for Alex Smith, who had been the No. 1 pick in the draft in 2005 but was coming off a disastrous rookie season. Turner planned to use Smith’s athletic ability by having him throw on the run and even occasionally calling running plays for him.

    Smith, who had worked out of a spread offense in college, improved greatly in his second season, throwing for 16 touchdowns and even running for a couple.

    This year, when Turner’s chance for the Dallas job evaporated, the 49ers extended Turner’s contract and raised his salary to $1.35 million a year. Yet, when another head-coaching opportunity surfaced, Turner left them in the lurch. Now, Smith will have to work with his third offensive coordinator in three years.

    There’s a natural tendency for coaches to want to get to the highest level, but the abilities that make a good coordinator aren’t necessarily the same attributes needed for a good head coach. Mike Martz, for instance, was an outstanding coordinator, but as a head coach, his inability to manage the game clock well and his teams’ lack of discipline doomed him.

    Turner is very good at designing an offense, working with quarterbacks and calling plays. He does not have the command presence a good head coach needs.

    So, why try it again? He will get much more money, of course, but his lifestyle doesn’t demand that. Like most coaches, he doesn’t eat at high-priced restaurants, wear designer clothing or travel to Paris. When he gets a short vacation before training camp, he spends it with his family at a cabin he owns on a lake in New Hampshire. I’m quite certain that his cabin is not high-priced real estate.

    In the movie “Click,” Adam Sandler uses a remote control to go back and try to change unpleasant moments in his life.

    Norv Turner is soon going to wish he had that remote.


    http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/Commentary/Columns/2007/dickey2201.htm
     
  2. foober

    foober BoltTalker

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    Some sports columnists are really really stupid.:yes: Others are just stupid.
     
  3. P88F

    P88F BoltTalker

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    Didnt Turner cut Jerry Rice? ya go figure
     
  4. reddenedbeard

    reddenedbeard Well-Known Member

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    Good thing Barry Switzer (for the Cowboys anyway) never listened to this type of criticism.
     
  5. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    I dont know. I think people who criticize Turner based on his record have a point. Turner will have to win people over, other than the homers that have already crawled into his colon...

    At this point Turner has to show that he can do it. Its all on him to disprove the critics.
     
  6. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    I'ts the off season for these asssholes, as well!!
     
  7. reddenedbeard

    reddenedbeard Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing wrong being a homer .. that is why we all are Charger fans. I do agree that we can't jump to conclusions but we all wish the best for our team.

    Only thing I can say in regards to him having a poor coaching record .. some of this have to fall on the owners he has previously worked for .. Any coach that works for either the Raiders or Washington at this time is doomed for failure IMHO. That has to be taken into consideration ..
     
  8. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    That is a bright view of things. I am not sure I see things the way you do. Yes, Oakland was a toxic energy dump. But Snyder in Washington went out and got Norv talent.

    I hope for the best. But in my opinion the only thing that will silence my questions and the questions of others is Turner showing that he can actually produce as a head coach.
     
  9. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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  10. Electric Chair

    Electric Chair Well-Known Member

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    Bitter name dropping Niner Fans that pose as writers crack me up.

    "Walsh many times has outlined this scenario for me." :lol:
     
  11. LV Bolt Fan

    LV Bolt Fan Well-Known Member

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    Turner doesn't have to win me over. And I'm nowhere near his colin. :icon_tease:

    I don't give a rat's *** who the Head Coach is. I'm a fan of the Chargers.

    All of the Turner hiring critics need to just STFU. If those of you that think you know better, did, you'd have been hired by an NFL team by now. :yes:

    Opinions are like *******s, everyone has one and they all stink!

    :icon_tease:
     
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  12. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    The greater shame is that "fans" think he has a credible grasp of what the Chargers are about.
     
  13. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    Someone very soon is gonna defend Dickey's story, and claim the Charger's made a huge mistake in taking Norv :icon_eek: :yes:
     
  14. BFISA

    BFISA Well-Known Member

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    If only he hadda pimp daddy suit on...:icon_eek: :yes:
     
  15. Thunderstruck

    Thunderstruck BoltTalker

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    Wouldn't the same thing be true of virtually any coach we hired? Rex Ryan would've had to prove he could win at all as a HC. Schotty had yet to prove he could do anything in the postseason. We could've hired Pete Carroll...but he hasn't proven himself as an NFL head coach. Bill Parcells? He hasn't proven he can win consistently without Bill Belichick.

    And oh, by the way...Bill Belichick hadn't exactly lit the league on fire in his stint as a head coach prior to joining the Pats.

    I think you're going to find that the head coach of an NFL team has far less to do with the success of that team than you think. It has way more to do with the talent on the team, the assistant coaches who do the day-to-day coaching of that talent, and good luck in the form of adequate health. More than anything the head coach has to create an atmosphere in which success is possible. As long as he can keep his players from actually revolting I don't see any reason why a lot of head coaches can't win in this league.

    I know it's been said before, but LT isn't suddenly going to forget how to cut-back and Jamal Williams isn't going to suddenly become a wuss because Norv is now our HC.
     
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  16. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Only thing I have to say about this article is...
    I hate the offseason. It takes a lot longer to prove tools like this wrong.
     
  17. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Thank you for your input. However I think homers such as yourself should stop telling people to 'STFU'.

    I am sorry you have problems with people not liking Turner. Get over it and yourself.
     
  18. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Well Toby, this "fan" does consider he (the author) has valid points in his article. Yes, your a Turner fan, and I am happy for you. But he (turner) also has a losing record as a head coach, and has not been able to make use of talent he has had, when not an OC. Not in Washington. I will give him a pass for the stent in the toxic energy dump of Oakland, but I wont for him not doing his job there. His players QUIT on him. His team DISINTEGRATED under his leadership. He was not able in either place to be a Head Coach that helped his team.

    Sure maybe you and the others here are right, Turner will suddenly drop a set now, or his coordinators will be the head coaches and Norv is just going to be a figure head that AJ can feel all comfy with. Sorry, I dont get that. Turner will end up being the worst hire by the Chargers for HC. Worse than Gilbride, and worse than Riley. Until he proves me wrong, that is the fact of it in my point of view.

    Maybe to you that is the recipe for success. For me, it is a 'wait and see'.
     
  19. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Shake those pom poms.

    Wow! I am amazed how many of you out of one side of your mouth say a HC is important. Making half time adjustments, preparing the team to play, keeping things in line. Then when it suits you, you jump on the other side of the fence and then try to explain how unimportant a HC is.

    So tell me t-struck. If we dont need a HC as you suggest, why did we hire one? Why is it that we have a history of a few HC's having success, and others not? Are you saying that Gilbride had less talent on his team than Ross did? Really? Or are you actually saying that Humphries forgot how to throw a pass?

    I appreciate the blind homerism shown by many of you, but at least try and have some dignity in devining your myths about Turner.
     
  20. bigcarson50

    bigcarson50 Well-Known Member

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    In fairness that team quit on its last three coaches, and there were reports that when Gruden left, players did not like him all that much either.

    I think Norv did an OK job in DC. Nothing spectacular, but he did take over a 4-12 (?) team and did take them to the playoffs and did have a winning record when he was fired. The list of "stars" on that team isn't inspiring either.

    I was and am still not all that excited about the hire. Norv is not the second coming of Coryell, Madden, Lombardi or maybe even Bobby Ross, but he isn't Zampese, or that guy that replaced Switzer in Dallas either.

    All I hope is that this team can get us to the playoffs and that Norv is not the second coming of Marty.
     
  21. Thunderstruck

    Thunderstruck BoltTalker

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    Obviously a HC is important. But you can also overestimate the head-coach's importance.

    But do you honestly think Norv Turner's problems are going to be related to technical responsibilities like making half-time adjustments? The guy is one the best X's and O's guys in the NFL.

    If I'm a blind homer you're one of those wild-eyed old men on the crowded street-corner with a long scraggly beard and a sign that says "The End is Nigh." Hyperbole cuts both ways.
     
  22. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Well, Joe Gibbs has struggled with the steaming pile of "talent" that Dan "I was a Teenage Megalomaniac" Snyder has provided him, too.

    I think you are being extremely speculative when you say his players "quit" on him in Washington. One of the reasons Norv was retained for so long in Washington, despite only one playoff appearance, is that no one (not coaches or players) really had anything bad to say about the guy. They all thought he was doing a good job as head coach. The only player that has been really critical of Turner is Jerry Rice, and Rice is bitter because Norv cut him.

    In Washington, Norv had a winning record in 4 of his 7 seasons. During his entire 9 year coaching career, Norv has coached a grand total of 16 Pro Bowlers, which is only 5 more than the Chargers had last year alone.

    Norv has had very little to work with in Washington. I think it's perfectly valid to criticize Norv for not being a rah-rah/motivator type of coach. It's never been his strong suit. Norv is so self-motivated that he expects everyone else to be the same. Hopefully, Norv has learned from that mistaken presumption and knows that he needs to improve upon his ability to lead. I also think it will help Norv that the majority of guys on this team are self-motivated. It doesn't take a coach's speech to fire up Philip or LT or Neal or Merriman or Castillo or Jamal etc. etc. etc. These guys play for pride. They play for each other. And they play hard.

    Saying that Norv is a worse head coach than Kevin Gilbride is a stretch. In less than a season and a half, Gilbride managed to alienate everyone in the Chargers' organization from players to front office staff. The guy was an unmitigated disaster.


    The majority of people that know Norv well have a great deal of respect and admiration for him.
     
  23. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Best X's and O's guys in the NFL... OK. I guess Gibbs and Parcells are the best coaches in the NFL also because they had success once.

    Norv was the best X's and O's guy in Dallas. He had a few yerars there. How well did Miami do under him when they had "The best X's and O's guys in the NFL" as their OC?

    In 2002 they went 9-7. Winning record, third in their division. I am not overly impressed with that. Perhaps you are, since you hang your hat on the fact that he is dubbed "The best X's and O's guys in the NFL"... The Dolphins O was 15th in the league under the great coordination of Norv Turner that year. I am glad the middle of the pack excites you so.

    2003, Miami slips to the 24th ranked O under Norv. WOW! I am getting giddy with anticipation... They did win 10 games, but largely on the play of their defense.

    The only place he has truely had success was his three seasons in Dallas. So you are ready to crown his *** off of three years of success. OK. I guess that rose glasses point of view enables you to be happy, and that is alright. But sorry, I expect nothing from this guy. He has proven he is not a capable HC. Further he is here only because AJ Smith knew he would not challenge him the way Marty did.

    If he proves me wrong I will gladly eat crow. If he proves me right, I will take no pleasure in that either, because it means that due to fuggin politics we have burnt our best shot at something truely amazing.

    Attack me for that if you will. Sorry I am not a blind homer like many here. I say what I mean and mean what I say.
     
  24. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Just like Mike Riley, with about the same result.:tdown:

    I am glad so many real fans are excited about Turner. Truth be told I hope all of you are correct and can tell me what an *** I was for questioning such a legend of the game. But I dont share your (the 'real fans' who are excite about Turner) sunny outlook.
     
  25. Thread_Killer

    Thread_Killer Well-Known Member

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    USER AGREEMENT AND TERMS OF SERVICE (TOS)

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    Concudan, FYI.
     
  26. boltssbbound

    boltssbbound Well-Known Member

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    Mike Riley had 0 winning seasons as an HC. Norv has had a winning season 4 times. Riley even managed to go 1-15 with the #1 defense in the league.

    Just because they are both well-respected doesn't mean they're the same. Riley is and was a college coach. He'd never coached in the NFL and could not make the transition. Norv is an NFL coach. He has experience and he's a great X's and O's guy. With the team we have, I think Norv can be successful.

    I can understand you questioning Norv's ability to be a successful HC, but comparing him to Gilbride and Riley is ridiculous. Even if you factor in Norv's two years in that football black hole that is Chokeland, Norv's winning % is twice that of Gilbride or Riley.
     
  27. Thunderstruck

    Thunderstruck BoltTalker

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    I think I'll take the word of the scores of NFL coaches, GM's, players, and analysts who pretty much universally agree that Norv is one of the best X's and O's guys in the league over yours.
     

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