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Week 3 Pros and Cons

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by Concudan, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    The same Josh Gordon that's one positive drug test away from a year-long suspension from the league? That guy? You want to give up a premium pick to bring that guy to a state where he can get a medical marijuana card as easily as he can an In-n-Out cheeseburger?
     
  2. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    C'mon LBC! He wont be able to get drugs in San Diego...
     
  3. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Maybe with our "beefed up" border-policies... :roflmao: ... but I'm also more speaking to the value of the pick. Not worth the risk in my opinion, and I'm of the opinion most people overvalue draft picks. You don't pay sticker price on a car with a crappy CarFax report (I'll await my check in the mail for that endorsement!), especially when the seller has said they're eager to move the car. A 4th or 5th round pick and hell yes, I'll take that chance on the guy. But me personally, I wouldn't advocate paying what was originally paid for the player.
     
  4. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    Yes. No more than a 3rd though, given the risk.

    I remember a day when people said the same things about Vincent Jackson...now we'd all love to have him back.
     
  5. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I love the smell of football in the morning.

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    Heck, on In-N-Out's secret menu, you can get "HGH" wild animal style fries, and their special "drank" for just a buck more when you order the #1 combo...
     
  6. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    In defense, I don't think a lot of people had an issue with keeping VJ, just with giving him a massive amount of guaranteed money with having some sort of security blanket (i.e. clauses in the contract that killed the guarantees if he drew another DUI arrest - which would have resulted in a year-long suspension), one which I believe Tampa ended up slipping into his contract. Had we signed him to the terms he was originally asking for, sans "insurance" clause, and he'd gotten another DUI, we'd have been up the creek cap-wise the same way we ended up with Gaither - except for a larger amount.

    In this case though, I highly doubt anyone's going to get Cleveland to agree to a trade condition that our 3rd round pick would become null-and-void or only a 7th if Gordon popped positive again - considering his positive tests and their lack of faith in him are the primary reason they're trying to unload him. There's no real way to "protect our asset" (in this case the asset being the draft pick surrendered) because there's nothing that stands to directly limit the player's earning potential in any substantial way (sadly, the contract he's on as a 2nd/3rd round compensatory selection doesn't have the same sway as negating the guarantees on $26 million that was the clause in VJ's contract).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. matilack

    matilack #therealagent47

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    I'm not sure about that considering the Jets got Santonio Holmes (a guy with his own issues) for a 4th, the Bears got Marshall (a far more established player than Gordon) for 2 3rds, even Boldin went for just a 6th.

    I'm not sure the Browns can expect more than a 2nd at best, more likely a conditional pick. The WR trade market (particularly for troubled players) just doesn't hold value, so I'm surprised the Browns are even considering this.
     
  8. Dublin Bolt

    Dublin Bolt BoltTalker

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    Pros - Rivers again.
    Ladarius Green continues to show up in the passing game, he needs to be much more involved, I'll give him a mulligan on the blocked FG.
    Michael Harris, this guy is a real good RT, pity we have 2 and no true LT behind Dunlap.
    Danny Woodhead, guy is a football player, he gets it, wish guys with more athletic ability i.e. Mathews, got it the way he does.

    Cons - Pass rush, D depth, and Marcus Gilchrist. Cannot understand how he continues to play and Brandon Taylor does not even dress.
    Vincent Brown, I ain't seen diddley squat from you, what have u done for me lately?, see Ladarius Green above.
    Dressing Donald Butler and not Tourek.
    Not a fan of Ohrnberger as a G, Troutman might be better option there.

    I'm not gonna have a go at the (what some are calling) 'turtling' at the end. Any sort of half decent D should be able to hold the Locker lead O out with 95 yds and 2 mins on the clock with no timeouts.
     
  9. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 BoltTalker

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    Again, getting the ball to our Tight Ends are going to take more than a 2 step drop that you had suggested.

    Your missing the point, all those stats you just put out, was before King Dunlap and Chad Rinehart exited the game. We had Mike Harris, Rich Ohrenberger, Nick Hardwick, Johnnie Troutman and Jeromey Clary as our OL. We played it safe and smart.

    Like McCoy said, I'd take the defense's chances with the opponent on the 6 with 2 minutes left and no timeouts any day. The defense just didn't execute.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    Actually you are missing the entire point on this. I am offering it as one means to beat a blitz, or in place of a run vs a stacked line. Throwing to a TE or WR along the LOS, DOES NOT take more than 2 steps. Look at last seasons game and refresh your memory on this play if needed.

    This is the play where Rivers takes the snap, steps back 2 steps then throws a slightly forward pass along the line of scrimmage (LOS) to a receiver. It functions much as a running play but keeps a defense honest when stacking the middle of the box. We used it many times in the last several years.

    Please explain how throwing to a tight end in this manner takes more than 2 steps.

    Dunlap went down in the first drive of the 4th quarter. Are you saying that the OL is incapable of pass blocking without Dunlap but can run block without him? If that is your thesis then I wholly disagree, and offer my reasoning at the end of this post.

    What we did was not smart in my book, what we did was play cowardly and lose. We can agree to disagree on that point, neither of us can change what happened.
    Sorry, I simply disagree with your take. Last rated D or top 10 rated O... I know where I would hedge my bets. You say the D did not execute, I agree. However, what in any of the previous drives made you think they would?

    In parting, the error of your thesis that we cant pass behind a line without Dunlap was displayed in the final drive of the game. Before the follies highlight reel Rivers completed 3 passes for 36 yards, in a row (1st play Philip Rivers pass to the middle to Antonio Gates for 10 yards to the SD30, 2nd play Philip Rivers pass to the left to Eddie Royal for 13 yards to the SD43, 3rd play (follies ending) Philip Rivers pass to the left to Danny Woodhead for 13 yards) bing bang boom.

    That would have won us the game just one drive before. If you cant see that then you are simply unwilling to face the facts of this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  11. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    I was thinking somewhere @ 3rd for a guy who has true "Elite" potential. Yeah absolutely, the fact that we have nobody on the outside that can take the top off of the defense, with our dink and dunk offense, is hurting us in the run game as well as in the long term of things, once defenses find us to be predictable. As much as I like both Keenan Alen and Vincent Brown I would absolutely throw one of them in the deal as well because I truly see them being one in the same type of player. My guess it would be more likely to be Brown, because he was a Norv guy.


    Some kids need a reality check to get their act together, and Maybe Gordon was F.O.S. but he did say he realizes that this could be his last chance, and doesn't want to mess that up.

    2 years ago with all the stuff that Dez was doing, and looking at how far he's come along I'm sure if a trade talk came up then it too would have made a lot of people a little nervous.
     
  12. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    You're overly optimistic and this isn't Madden.

    Our offense is dink-and-dunk because that's how it's designed to be right now - it's called West Coast Offense, Bill Walsh, Joe Montana, and Jerry Rice won multiple Super Bowls and all got into the HOF on the back of this scheme. The Patriots went 17-0 running this scheme. And a player doesn't have to have track-star speed in order to be a deep-threat. There's just so much naivete in the post above.

    Brown was a Norv guy? Um... no... Brown was handpicked by Charlie Joiner - you know, one of those Chargers in the HOF who really knew WR's well as a coach.

    Maybe Gordon does realize it's his last chance and it's finally sunk in with him. It doesn't change the fact that he is a higher-risk product and absolutely doesn't merit overpayment or sticker-price because of it. Brown or Allen AND a draft pick? Sorry, I rarely break this out because I think it's generally an absurd reaction - but Are you on Crack? So instead of risking the total loss of one Day 2 pick on a guy who is one substance-related (doesn't have to be weed, it could be any banned substance, a DUI, or even getting arrested for possession of a controlled substance) issue away from a full-year of worthlessness to us, you want us to make it two picks (one yet to be made and one already spent)?

    Our run game is suffering because we have average at best guard play (Rinehart is serviceable, Clary's had one good game and that was largely called that because it was his first game in a long time he wasn't making glaring mistakes) and Ryan Mathews has the vision of Mr. Magoo. And honestly, I think too many people got spoiled by LT. Now, granted, Mathews hasn't even gotten to Natrone-level yet, but on the instances he stops trying to stutter-step and decisively hits the right hole he's getting a quality YPC. He's not breaking highlight reel runs, but neither are half the starting RB's in the league thus far this season.
     
  13. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Actually the majority defense did execute, exactly what was called: Prevent defense. The thing is that prevent defense is worthless if you're not tackling well on first opportunity (which we hadn't been all day in the game) and you can't get at least clean-up/coverage sacks from just rushing your front four (which we'd done all of once - with English rushing from the 5-Tech actually - on the day prior).

    Nothing is cut and dry in football, it's all about situational awareness and adjustment. And while, sure, it's nice to say you'd take that particular situation every day - on this particular day, given what this particular defense had shown throughout the day it was and wasn't capable of, I'd have been far from comfortable or eager to give the other team the ball with 2 minutes left and only one drive needed to win the game.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. The LBC

    The LBC I'm a Real Prick

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    Yes, but the "conditions" on some of those trade had to do with either the player or team receiving the player reaching a certain benchmark in terms of performance - not whether the player can avoid suspension. Also, you've got to look at the actually players being mentioned before just lumping them in as "guys with off-field problems," context has to be considered.

    Brandon Marshall, for instance, and it surprised me when I double-checked too, has never been suspended by the league in spite of his litany of off-field incidents - in many cases because he's largely done stupid stuff that either charges were eventually dropped or never filed in the first place.
    Santonio Holmes was shipped out by one of the most stringent personal conduct policy teams in the league (and who were trying to set an example to the rest of the team considering Holmes' nightclub incident coincided with Ben's alleged rape incident) - that's why Holmes went for as cheap as he did, he'd have been released if someone didn't trade anything for him just the same as the organization did with Huey Richardson back in '92 when they traded him for a 7th round pick a year removed from taking him in the 1st round.
    Boldin was an aging, cap-drain. Still a very good player, mind you, but the Ravens were having to trim fat in order to extend their franchise QB - and at best Boldin had one more year left on the team, since Torrey Smith is coming due for a contract extension and is likely to command Top 10 WR money just on the standard set by any WR1 seeking a new contract these days.

    Meanwhile, there's also the slew of guys (not all receivers but position isn't really relevant here) who "had talent" but posed significant risk to the franchise to bringing them in of being one strike away from not able to play for them like Titus Young (waived by the Lions and later waived by Mr. Reclamation Project himself Jeff Fisher barely two weeks later).

    Point is, and I think we're on the same page here Mat, if we're talking a Day 3 pick - particularly if it's conditional on the player being a game-day active when healthy for however many games in the season follow the execution of the trade - I'm cool with rolling the dice and taking the chance. If it's a Day 2 pick or what had been suggested, I'm cool - having an elite receiver (assuming he actually maximizes his potential AND stays out of trouble long enough to do it) isn't really that important in this league. It's certainly a nice luxury to have, but not one you bend over backwards for anymore unless you're Jerry Jones. And that's really even dependent on the term "elite" which is subjective, because even maximizing his potential, I'm not convinced he's going to be the better of Megatron, Julio, Dez, or AJ Green - which leaves him scrapping with the likes of Andre Johnson, Fitz, Brandon Marshall, VJ, Colston, Cruz, and the like until they retire for that 5th in the Top 5 spot (considering "elite" should be considered at least the 90th percentile - no one considers "B+" students to be the "elite among their class).
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  15. Bolts4lyfe

    Bolts4lyfe BoltTalker

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    I'm sorry but, Mike McCoy is not Bill Walsh, and Rivers and who ever our number 1 WR is, aren't Montana and Rice. So yeah it worked for them over a decade ago. And the argument of the Patriots using the west coast going 17-0, I'm sorry but when Randy Moss and Tom Brady broke the QB/WR TD's record, they weren't running quick slant, Dig and drag routes.

    About Brown, The thing about joiner may be true, but who do you think ran the drills at the Aztecs pro day and had a first hand look at the WR's?

    No I'm high on PCP

    The biggest risk is his off field concerns, which you have a valid point, but truth be told every draft pick is a risk. As you know, Many if not most have a hard time transitioning into the NFL from the college level. I personally would rather have a proven commodity who is on the level of being border line elite, who is still only 22 years old.

    To say Fitz, and AJ aren't in a conversation with the aforementioned "elite" players is laughable, look at their respected numbers with who they've had throwing to hem their entire careers as well as what they had around them. Marshall could be considered too. Even if that's how you feel, you're telling me you wouldn't want Cruz, Marshall, Fitz, or Jackson for a 3rd?
     
  16. ChargerMike

    ChargerMike BoltBruthaFromAnuthMutha

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    I really don't want to be evil., but after watch'n him last night., somebody needs to take out Peyton for us to even dream about make'n the post-season.
    Our no-defense and lack of consistency at this point is such a potential season-ending buzz-kill. :tdown: :notworthy: :poop:
     

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