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What if John Butler didn't die for another 10 years? Would we of had a Superbowl ring?

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by robdog, Nov 3, 2011.

  1. robdog

    robdog Code Monkey Staff Member Administrator

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    Not sure why, but I have been thinking about this a lot. AJ's greatest draft(2004), was mostly masterminded by Butler. Marty would probably still be the coach(most likely) and I feel like we would of had at least 1 ring by now.

    Sorry if this is rehashing old crap, but I am sick today and feeling a little down! :(
     
  2. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    I would say no. Did Buffalo get one in his 4 runs there?

    Edit: No meaning it is not guaranteed, we may have had some different players, but all in all you look at what we had. Would Marty have stopped forgetting his nads in the locker room during the playoffs? Would Rivers and LT not have had their knees hurt before the AFCCG?

    A lot o variables. But I dont think JOBU would have been the key to push us over the top... I dont know what would have been, I want to know what WILL BE.
     
  3. robdog

    robdog Code Monkey Staff Member Administrator

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    But they did appear in 4 Super Bowls in that decade. (90s)
     
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  4. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    True, and I would love if we could appear in 4. I want to win those, but need to get there first.
     
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  5. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX 2017 Chargers Head Coach

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    Sure, of course we would have. We also would have beat the Patriots had Mcree not fumbled the ball. Hindsight can do a lot of things. But of course there are far too many variables to consider and in reality it probably wouldn't have happen the exact way it did these past 10 years. But if it had happen the same way except with this difference then I say we would have been 4 time SB winning team looking like Patriots of the early 2000's if not better.
     
  6. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    Who knows? Those who rail that AJ "does well enough to win a lot of regular
    season games, but not enough to win a Lombardi Trophy," certainly wouldn't
    cease complaining, since Butler never won a SB either. I liked Butler a lot, but I'm
    slow to jump to conclusions that (unknowable) things would've worked out
    great if only history had branched off differently. Would the Chargers have
    returned to the old 5-11 days? Who knows?
    One reason I don't pile on when people compare AJ's drafts to the Lions or
    Chiefs, etc., is that I remember that the Chargers haven't had a single pick
    in the top 10 ten since the Eli situation. In fact, AJ's average first pick in those
    years is 20.33th...(and that's misleadingly good, because the Mathews pick wasn't
    with OUR #12) That's the downside of not having a losing season for years and years.
    I'm not saying AJ's drafts have been great, but I think it should be remembered that
    teams that have stunk up the joint in recent years have high-impact draft
    picks for a (ugly) reason.
     
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  7. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Considering that Butler was responsible for some very questionable drafts besides the first rounders (anyone know of any 2nd rounders on who are on the team still or made an impact from 2001-2003?) and was responsible for some contract and player personnel disasters (big contracts to Tim Dwight, David Boston, Stephen Alexander, the release of John Carney and Rodney Harrison, etc), I doubt it
     
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  8. airbolt

    airbolt BoltTalker

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    Very weak argument. First, let's look at all of AJ's stiffs from the past drafts. A regular hall of shame.

    Butler died way too soon to know what would happen. But all we have is his past track record. He accomplished 4 times what AJ has failed to do. No comparison, a much more accomplished and respected GM. Look around, ask around about what people in the NFL think about AJ Smith.
     
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  9. Blue Bolt

    Blue Bolt Persona Non Grata

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    I'm not much for "what if" scenarios...... it's our current dilemma that concerns me....... #imjustsaying
     
  10. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I only put idiots on ignore...

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    Could we have had a team win the SB with Butler at the helm? Could there have been more than one guy firing from the grassy knoll on that day in November? Could aliens have kidnapped Bush and reprogrammed him? Could N4L actually have been a disciple of Norv that went rogue after one too many trips to the gatorade cooler? I don't think it is up to any of us to really know what could have been, just that it did or didn't happen.
     
  11. AnteaterCharger

    AnteaterCharger Calibrating Bolttalk, Podcast by Podcast Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    Butler got to four super bowls, he won none, and he eventually was canned after making too many mistakes taking his comrades AJ Smith and Buddy Nix with him. After four super bowls buffalo never was the power it was, and that took place also under Butler. And you note that AJ has a hall of shame but that ignores that it was because of him that we went from 4-12 and a perennial loser (which included two years never over .500 and one big set back under Butler) to a perennial playoff contender from 2004-2010.

    You basically ignore the poor decisions Butler made here in San Diego with a wave of your hand (which is the main question), by saying that he was successful in BUFFALO. Heck Bobby Beathard must be your favorite, he built damn good teams elsewhere and then came here and sucked massive wind even when he didn't give up his first round pick next year for a UDFA from Smart Moss U.
     
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  12. airbolt

    airbolt BoltTalker

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    No, I think you want to give AJ way too much credit, pal. Butler wasn't perfect but he got the Bills to 4 Bowls. I don't expect AJ to win a Super Bowl, only get us to that point. Hasn't happened. Oh in case you forgot, two future Hall of Famers were drafted by Mr. Butler. L.T., and Drew Brees.
     
  13. robdog

    robdog Code Monkey Staff Member Administrator

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    1. Would Butler have drafted Bowe over Buster?
    2. Would Butler have drafted Matthews over English?
    3. Would Butler of signed key guys instead of throwing away last years season?

    I would have to answer yes to all 3 of these. And yes, I am crying over spilt milk.
     
  14. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    well if that milk is spilt on your new 1.5k gaming laptop... then cry all you want.
     
  15. Ride The Lightning

    Ride The Lightning Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.

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    We should have kept Eli.
     
  16. Lancer 1

    Lancer 1 Eternal Optimist

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    Not true – sadly, John Butler had been dead for a year and nearly a month by the time the 2004 NFL Draft occurred.

    AJ took over as our GM shortly before the 2003 NFL Draft, after John Butler passed away early in April. What followed was a 4-12 season and the Chargers winning or losing, depending on one’s own opinion, several tiebreakers over the three other teams to finish the season 4-12. For this, the Bolts were awarded the top overall pick in the 2004 Draft, followed by AJ taking total advantage of then Giants GM Ernie Accorsi’s passionate lust of the Manning name & lineage, resulting in A.J. Smith being named the NFL’s 2004 Executive of the Year. (Marty was named Coach of the Year and Brees was named Comeback Player of the Year)

    If Marty Schottenheimer had remained our coach, we probably still would not have a championship – don’t forget, he coached some pretty talented teams in Kansas City, with similar results to what we experienced here. He had a maddening tendency to lose home playoff games, while coaching the more talented team. Twice within the span of 3 years, Marty’s Chiefs had 13-3 regular seasons, only to lose their first postseason game.

    Also notable is the fact that had Marty remained our coach, Philip Rivers would still be very good, but it is doubtful that he would currently be considered elite. Marty did not trust him all that much, and would not allow him to throw & develop as much as was needed to gain the leadership ability & experience that this team benefits from.
     
  17. Lancer 1

    Lancer 1 Eternal Optimist

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    In order to draft Dwayne Bowe over Buster, we would’ve had to trade up in the draft. We were coming off a 14-2 season, and Kansas City had been 9-7. We possessed the 30th pick of the 1st round, and the Chiefs had selected Bowe 7 spots higher, with the 23rd pick.

    We did trade up in the 2nd round, and selected safety Eric Weddle with the 37th pick of the 2007 NFL Draft.

    As for Clay Mathews, there were 2 other college linebackers (Aaron Curry & Brian Cushing) drafted higher than him in 2009, and 3 college defensive ends who now play LB in the NFL, Larry English being 1 of them. The other 2 are Aaron Maybin & Brian Orakpo, but they had both already taken off the board by the time we selected English with the 16th pick, as were Curry & Cushing. The draft is an inexact science, and some pure luck is involved as well – remember, every NFL GM passed on Tom Brady at least 5 times, and some of them passed on him 6.
     
  18. Lancer 1

    Lancer 1 Eternal Optimist

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    No we shouldn’t have…if we had, he may very well have sat out the season and then not only would we have never acquired Philip Rivers, Nate Kaeding, Roman Oben or Shawne Merriman, we also would not have gotten anything for having had the top pick in the draft – it would’ve been worse than drafting a player who turns out to be a bust, we would’ve totally missed out on having a 1st round pick in 2004, not to mention the extra picks we obtained in the trade.

    Besides, Eli has sucked for most of his career, the only reason he has a ring is because he had a dominant defense at his disposal, one that shut down the top 2 seeds in the NFC that season, along with the historic Hall of Fame offense that was the 2007 Patriots – any NFL quarterback could’ve won it all with that defense, and likely a few college ones as well.

    When Philip is enshrined in Canton and Eli is sitting in the audience there clapping for his brother, people will feel nearly as silly about comparing the two as they do now about speculating as to who would have the better NFL career between Peyton Manning & Ryan Leaf.
     
  19. chargerlipz

    chargerlipz Leading the league in nose hairs.

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    Wrong John Butler died in April of 2003. How could he mastermind the April 2004 draft?
     
  20. robdog

    robdog Code Monkey Staff Member Administrator

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    You don't think that they possibly planned ahead? I am absolutely sure they plan years ahead of the draft.
     
  21. chargerlipz

    chargerlipz Leading the league in nose hairs.

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    How are they gonna know their position in the draft if they haven't even played the season yet. Furthermore, they didn't know Brees was gonna suck balls in the 2003 season. They expected more from him that's why we ended up with Rivers. If Brees would have played well in 2003 do you think we would have drafted Eli? No.
     
  22. robdog

    robdog Code Monkey Staff Member Administrator

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    You are right, they are not going to know there position in the draft, but they have a game plan in place WAY before the draft of which players they are scouting and looking to draft in the next few years. Its not like, okay the Superbowl just happened time to start look at players and getting an idea of who we want to draft.
     
  23. BlazingBolt

    BlazingBolt BoltTalker

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    Butler didn't become GM in Buffalo until 1993 which means, while he was part of the front office, he was not the main architect of those Bills Superbowl teams. In 94 the Bills went 7-9 but they did have 4 playoff seasons under Butler after their last Superbowl.
     
  24. Ride The Lightning

    Ride The Lightning Join the Dark Side, we have cookies.

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    wow way to miss the joke

    My statement is as ridiculous as this thread.

    ---
    I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.623511,-116.993023
     
  25. chargerlipz

    chargerlipz Leading the league in nose hairs.

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    No ****
     
  26. airbolt

    airbolt BoltTalker

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  27. airbolt

    airbolt BoltTalker

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    I think Drew Brees will be enshrined before Phillip.
     
  28. Lancer 1

    Lancer 1 Eternal Optimist

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    I agree, but only because he'll probably retire from the NFL sooner than Philip will...
     
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  29. Moses

    Moses Can You Stand The Rain?

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    And because he has a ring and is a better player. I love Rivers, but damn I miss Drew Brees...
     
  30. Lancer 1

    Lancer 1 Eternal Optimist

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    Whether or not Drew is a better player than Philip is quite debateable - yes, he has a ring...he's played in the NFL longer and he also has a proficient and much ballsier Head Coach than we do but in Philip's 5 years as a starting NFL quarterback, he's quickly become elite. He's never had a losing season, and he's only missed the postseason once. He has yet to throw 3 interceptions in a game, how many other veteran quarterbacks can make that claim, especially ones with 30 or more NFL starts?

    It took Drew Brees longer than Philip Rivers to get to elite status, and that was only after regressing to the point that his team (us) had the top overall pick in the Draft for the 2nd time in 4 seasons, and felt the need to acquire yet another quarterback at the top of the 1st round.

    This is not intended to disparage Drew Brees or to insinuate that he's not a great QB, he was great when he was here (the last 2 years) but when all is said & done, I'd lay good odds that both Philip & Drew will be sporting championship rings, and I for one disagree with the opinion that Drew is a better player than Philip.
     

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