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Where would the chargers be if we had the pats coaches

Discussion in 'Chargers Fan Forum' started by House of Hayne, Nov 4, 2015.

  1. House of Hayne

    House of Hayne Chargers Smash

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    I hate the pats as much as the next person but
    If we had the pats coaching staff at the start of the year where would we be?
    With the same players where would we be?
    I think we would be looking at 7-0 or 6-1
    Sure as :poop: we wouldn't be 2-5
    So doesn't that say we need to fire the HC,DC,OC
    I think this experiment has failed
    Time to move on
     
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  2. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I only put idiots on ignore...

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    ^^^If we had those NE coaches, we would be labeled as cheaters. No thanks.
     
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  3. House of Hayne

    House of Hayne Chargers Smash

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    It's just a what if. Stating that a different coaching system could have a better outcome than what we have now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  4. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    IMO we would probably be something like 4-3. The pats have something we don't. Depth. Depth at most skill positions. They trade back, instead of up, and stock pile picks. I mean literally we have depth at 0 positions.
     
  5. House of Hayne

    House of Hayne Chargers Smash

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    True, but do you think we would be injured? Do you think we would be better prepared?
    Also how many games would we have won if we had 15% more on offense and 15% more on defense. I feel that a good coaching system can get that done
     
  6. LT-Express

    LT-Express Bolttalk.com Janitor since 06' Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Yes. Injuries are a freak thing in most cases. We may not have the extent of injuries, but we would have them. I mean KA'S injury no one could have stopped.
     
  7. Pointyearedog

    Pointyearedog I only put idiots on ignore...

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    IMHO, injuries are a sort of domino effect for this team. I am not sure if this could be attributed to strength and training issues. If one person gets injured, the next one to take his place may not have enough reps at that position or plays at a different or lesser level than the previous guy. It creates a small chaos with the other players around him, a thing of chemistry or not getting the timing right. Too many changes creates mini disasters, especially on the line where you are in tight quarters.
    Without going into the 7 paragraph version of things, one goes down injured, then it may affect the next person over, or one trips over another team mate, and it goes on until you have these glaring holes in personnel on your roster. Just think, has any replacement for a fallen team mate ever been better than the person he is replacing? Almost always, the level of skill or performance or experience is lower than the previous player's skill level.
     
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  8. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    There is no way in heck that we would be 7-0 or 6-1 with different coaches with the lack of talent that has made up the 2015 roster. That is crazy talk. We have bottom 5-10 talent on this team and that's with an elite HOF in waiting player like Rivers at the most important position, a player for whom Telesco gets no credit. (Also, we have played 8 games, not 7 games, and are 2-6.)

    By contrast, the Patriots have much more talent than we have. On defense, in particular, their reserves are as good or better than our starters at several positions. Malcom Brown is better than Reyes; Sheard is at least as good as Attaochu; and Bostic is every bit as good as Te'o (maybe better) and he's their 4th or 5th best ILB. And their starters are that much better with players like Hightower, Collins and Jones (current NFL sack leader) all being better than any defensive player on our roster (Verrett and Weddle included).

    On offense, their OL is better than ours, their TEs are better than ours and they are no worse than a push everywhere else. As great as Belichick is as a HC, the Patriots are a much more talented team that we are. It's not like they are winning with a roster full of street free agents.

    As for the Chargers, the most likely result is that we would be 3-5 at best with different coaches. Remember, we have 2 close wins to go long with the 4 close losses, so if you are going to assert that coaching can change the result of a close game, that applies to the close wins just as much as it applies to the close losses. If those are all considered to be 50/50 games, which is debatable, then the expected value is 3-3 in those games (and that is with calling the game at GB a 50/50 game).

    Moreover, it was total luck that we got to play PIT without Roethlisberger, so if you are going to start assuming different facts as to what our "talent" could have done, then that needs to be considered in evaluating our level of talent. If PIT had Roethlisberger, I think it is pretty clear that they would have won that game against us easily.

    With a better GM and the same coaches, there is a good chance that we would be 5-3 or better since the current GM already had an elite QB and solid talent from the outset to build around. It is a joke that after three years of the failed Telesco experiment that we have bottom 5-10 talent overall on a team that has Philip Rivers at QB.
     
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  9. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    New England.
     
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  10. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    As a person who lives in New England, all posts here couldn't be any more wrong, in all due respect.

    The Patriots have depth? Really? Lets take a look..

    RB - Dion Lewis is the starter, and nobody expected him to have the season he's having. LeGarrette Blount is an average running back at best, lot of knowledable Patriots fans know this and can no longer tolerate him. James White is still an unknown player, but fans see the potential. Brandon Bolden is a special teams player.

    WR - Julian Edelman is the #1, and they move him around literally everywhere. Brandon LaFell, Danny Amendola, Keshawn Martin and Aaron Dobson are all average wideouts. Matthew Slater is a special teams player.

    TE - Rob Gronkowski is obviously an elite tight end, but after him Scott Chandler and Michael Williams are average to below average.

    OL - Decimated by injuries to Nate Solder, Ryan Wendell and Bryan Stork this year, the Patriots have started 3 rookies on the interior OL, including undrafted rookie at C David Andrews, LG Shaq Mason and RG Tre' Jackson . Marcus Cannon started at LT once Solder went down, and now with Cannon down Sebastian Vollmer is the starter at LT. Cameron Fleming, their 3rd string RT is now starting there after being signed from the practice squad.

    Some how, this offense has played 2 of the leagues best defensive fronts (Jets, Dolphins) in back to back weeks and have put up 30+ points. With those offensive linemen. The Patriots are 1st in points scored, 5th in total yards and 2nd in pass yards.

    I don't have to review their entire defense, but their front 7 is very deep and very good. I laugh at Chaincrusher's commnet about how Bostic is better than Te'o when he hasn't even gotten a series of snaps for New England on defense after being traded from Chicago.

    Their secondary aside from Malcolm Butler and Devin McCourty is very average to below average to poor players. I mean they have a handful of undrafted rookies and 2nd year players like Justin Coleman, Brandon King and Rashaan Melvin getting snaps on the back end and yet they still rank 8th in points against, 12th in total yards, 15th against the pass and 7th against the run.

    Patriots are the perfect example of what coaching can do for a team. This team takes preparation very serious, that's been a staple in the culture BB has created here. They play with discipline in all 3 phases of the game and the Patriots are rarely outcoached. They're are the best team in the league when it comes down to in-game adjustments and they trust their players.

    The Chargers, with the Patriots coaching staff could be 6-2 compared to 2-6.
     
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  11. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    By the way, I absolutely hate the Patriots. But, I respect the hell out of them and their organization, aside from the asterisks near 3 of their 4 Super Bowls.
     
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  12. ChargerRay

    ChargerRay LA Chargers Suck! Staff Member Super Moderator Podcaster

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    We'd be 6-1 maybe 5-2. I continue to disagree that we lack talent. For the millionth time, the damn freaking coaching staff. Idiot's have the collective football IQ of a peanut.
     
  13. Concudan

    Concudan Caffeinated Commando

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    And how are you determining that? Because they are not winning, or because the players are not making tackles?
     
  14. SDRaiderH8er

    SDRaiderH8er Well-Known Member

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    geez, and where would I have been if I had just kept my 500 shares of Price Club I bought in 1982 instead of just partying it away
     
  15. Lance19

    Lance19 BoltTalker

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    You wouldn't have had to pay for that 50 gallon barrel of mayonnaise
     
  16. HEXEDBOLT

    HEXEDBOLT Don't like it, lump it!!!

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    I think I could charge more for a 55 gallon food grade drum. Damn, that's lots of mater sandwiches too slather up.
     
  17. House of Hayne

    House of Hayne Chargers Smash

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    That is how I felt too
     
  18. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I will begin with your misstatement regarding what I said. I said that Bostic is every bit as good as Te'o and maybe better. Please note that contrary to your misstatement, that is not the same as asserting that Bostic is better.

    Further, how much Bostic has played for the Patriots is irrelevant to the question of how good he is when compared to Te'o. The fact that Bostic is not good enough to sniff the field for the Patriots and is as good or better than Te'o shows just how much better the Patriots are than the Chargers at ILB.

    And that is how it is with respect to their defensive front 7 generally--their reserves are as good or better than our starters.

    Since you have already conceded just how much dramatically better the Patriots' defensive front 7 is versus the Chargers, I will move on to the other positions.

    RB: In my view, this is a push at best for us. Blount and Lewis are both arguably better ball carriers than anyone we have. Blount is averaging 4.6 YPC and Lewis is averaging 4.9 YPC. Gordon has the highest ceiling, but has been very tentative as a rookie runner and ultimately largely ineffective. Lewis is every bit the receiver that Woodhead is and maybe better.

    TE: Advantage NE. Gronk is better than Gates at this point and Chandler is at least a push with Green, but Chandler is the much more complete TE when blocking is considered. The way I would put it is that Green is a little better/more dynamic than Chandler as a receiver, but Chandler is much, much better than Green as a blocker.

    WR: Push. Edelman is every bit as good as Allen and is more consistent. Amendola and LaFell are a push with Floyd and Johnson. Had this been the Floyd of a few years ago, I would have given us the slight advantage at WR.

    OL: Advantage NE. Their reserves are better than our starters, which pretty much says it all.

    QB: Push. Both excellent QBs.

    Secondary: Advantage NE. Butler and McCourty are good. Verrett and Weddle are good (or at least Weddle was good). The rest of what we have is worse trash than what NE has.

    Their players are much better and their coaching is better too. That is why they are 8-0 and we are 2-6.
     
  19. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    No. If Bostic was that good, he'd be getting snaps, that's how Belicheck runs his teams. He could care less about where you were taken in the draft, what he gave up to get you or how much he signed you for, in the end the best player will play. Bostic doesn't get a consistent number of snaps on defense and there is a reason for that - He's not that good. When the Patriots traded for him it was for depth both on defense and special teams; the Patriots saw some potential they could hopefully tap into and develop. Not to mention, Belicheck loves former Gators and Urban Meyer recruited players.

    Again, you turn this into a comparison discussion you will lose. I was not comparing New England's offense to San Diego's offense. I was showing everyone what New England's current offense looks like and what there depth chart looks like. You again point to talent instead of coaching. Did you not read who New England's starting along their offensive line? If you put these offensive lines side by side, every knowledgeable NFL fan/expert would say San Diego has the slight advantage over New England. They would say the same about the secondary. We have more talent in those positions than New England, yet their producing. Why? Their coaches scheme around their players, they don't make players fit their scheme.
     
  20. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    He already has better players than Bostic and Bostic is every bit as good as Te'o if not better. Again, you are only proving my point. Some of you think Te'o is our best ILB. Yet, he is not even as good as the ILB that is the worst ILB for the Patriots.

    And no, you are wrong about the OL comparison. Even the Patriots current OL with reserve players is better than our starting OL players. Vollmer is better than anyone we have at any OL position. Virtually any LG is going to be better than whichever LG we start. Franklin, the designated starter, has been dog manure for us. So, of course I would take Shaq Mason over him. Andrews is as good or better than Robinson (and much better than the pure dog ****** that is Watt), not that it would take much to accomplish that. Tre' Jackson is a push with Fluker (memo to Telesco--that's what you can do with a 4th round pick).

    Again, you are dead wrong about the secondary. Brandon Flowers and Jimmy Wilson play large numbers of snaps for us. This year they are worse than anyone the Patriots have in their secondary, starter or reserve. Wilson never had any ability, but Flowers has completely fallen off of a cliff for us. Opposing OCs are repeatedly targeting the receiver Flowers is failing to defend. Flowers has been an opponent passing TD and first down machine. Verrett and Weddle (when healthy) can't play all of the CB and safety positions by themselves. Robinson has been solid, but he is nothing special. Butler and McCourty are good and Chung is at least not terrible.

    As I said, I think a pretty strong argument can be made that the Patriots are as good or better than we are at every single position and in several instances their reserves are better than our starters.

    I certainly do not want to dismiss Belichick's strong coaching as I think he is on the short list for best HC in the NFL, but to suggest that our roster compares with theirs in terms of talent is something beyond crazy.

    There is no way we would have a winning record (5-3 or better) with any coach that anyone can name. We simply lack the talent. Without Rivers, we would literally be the least talented team in the NFL.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
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  21. matilack

    matilack Take A Knee McCree!!!

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    Didn't this same team go 9-7 the last 2 years? Mathews is about the only key player we lost between now and then, and he missed most of last season.

    I mean think about it, we didn't have Woodhead at all last year, and guys like Carrethers, Verrett, Ingram, Atta, Te'o, all missed significant time, not to mention we went through 5 different centers.

    So what is the dramatic roster alteration that took place between December 2014 and today?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  22. SuperCharger92

    SuperCharger92 Winners Win

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    I don't understand this, please clarify how Bostic is better or just as good as Te'o. He hasn't played a meaningful series of defensive snaps in 2015. How can you compare a player who is a starter and a player who's a reserve, and he was a reserve in Chicago behind Christian Jones and Shea McCellin, who moved from OLB in a 4-3 to ILB in a 3-4. Explain.

    If you put Te'o on the Patriots, he'd actually be successful. There defensive line is very, very good and keeps their LBs clean to make plays. So in turn, there LBs look very good as well.
    I'm literally forced to watch the Patriots almost every week, and I'm surrounded by New England Patriots football talk no matter where I go in New England.

    Vollmer is similar to Dunlap, a very solid tackle, but not elite.

    Other than that, there is no one on the current offensive line for the Patriots - talent wise that is better than players on our offensive line. Again, you are discrediting coaching. Their offensive line hasn't been spectacular, but it's been good enough to get them to win games.

    You're actually dead on in comparisons. I'd give McCourty the slight edge over Weddle this year, but I'd give Verrett the slight edge over Butler. However, everyone else on the secondary is very similar to ours. Very average. I'd argue we have the slight advantage, with Robinson and Williams (aside from his game changing penalty last week) playing very well. Even Flowers has been ok overall this year, in recent games he's been a shell of himself.
     
  23. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I disagree with your take. We lost players that helped with certain weaknesses that the team had in several key areas. Also, several players are playing as if they were on the downside of their career.

    Starting with special teams, Scifres is a year older and is not quite the same punter he once was. Ajirotutu and Gachkar, arguably our two best STers, are gone. Our kick coverage was not great even with them and has never been all good since the abomination of 2010, but those two standout players gave us enough to keep it together. Now they are gone and our kick coverage sucks.

    On defense, the loss of Gachkar is important because he played a key role when we played "the rotation" where Conner and Butler would start and Te'o and Gachkar would play on passing downs. Gachkar was our best pass defender and really our only good pass defender at ILB. Playing the rotation kept Te'o off the field in running downs, which was a good thing. The loss and failure to replace what Gachkar provided has actually hurt the team, then, against both the pass and the run as we don't have the players to play the rotation that was working for us last year when our run defense actually began to improve. In fact, we don't really have any good pass defending ILBs on the roster at all. (That stupid 7th round pick (Gachkar) turned out to be pretty important after all.)

    After that, there are several starters that have played this year as if they are in decline. Lissemore has turned into "Lisseless", really just giving us nothing. Whether due to injury and/or age, Weddle's performance has dropped off this year (and I was chief among the re-sign Weddle folks). And Flowers has just fallen off a cliff.

    While I would be the first to admit that Shareece Wright was not great in coverage, he was pretty darn good against the run--maybe not Jammer in his prime good, but good. So here we are giving Flowers all of this money and his pass coverage has been worse than Wright's ever was and we lost Wright's contribution to our run defense.

    We also lost Gilchrist, who was pretty good in pass coverage as a SS in nickel CB. The pass defense finished 4th in the league last year without much of a contribution from Verrett. Gilchrist provided a nice complement to Addae, who is a more stout presence versus the run. Now, we have Jimmy Wilson instead of Gilchrist, who pretty much sucks at everything to the point that I do not think he is properly rosterable as an NFL player.

    So now we are dead last in YPC against versus the run and we are 28th against the pass in YPA against. The drop off is because certain players are gone, the defense does not work as well together as it did with different personnel last year where the players complemented each other better and because certain players are older and have played worse than they did last year.

    Offensively, in addition to the loss of Mathews, who we had for 6 games, we also are seeing the effects of us trying to start/play Watt; the effect of a failed free agency pickup in Franklin; the effect of a limited free agency pickup in Johnson; a free agency bust in Jones; the loss of a potentially useful RB spot by idiotically keeping Naked Pictures, which amplifies the loss of Mathews; and the decline of two aging weapons--Floyd and Gates.

    Basically, in most of the places where we made changes, we got worse and in places where we still had players, there has been more of an impact resulting among key players aging/declining than there has been a positive result from younger players emerging.

    Last year, we were 9-7, but we were dead even in PF-PA, really, profiling more as an 8-8 type team. In retrospect, we were really fortunate to get the late wins we got versus STL, BAL and SF. We weren't far from losing those games. So even a little drop off would have produced a significantly worse record.

    I think the talent drop off has been more than a little in a number of places and the result is that we are not getting close wins against the solid and good teams. Now, we are only able to beat the bad teams and the talent drop off has a lot to do with it. We tried some changes and they really haven't worked.

    [And I even forgot to discuss the loss of Eddie Royal, which I thought was not going to be as much of an issue as it has clearly been.]
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
  24. Fossil

    Fossil BoltTalker

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    Where would the chargers be if we had the pats coaches?
    In a brand new downtown San Diego stadium.
     
  25. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    I would agree with you if you substituted the word "owner" for the word "coaches".
     
  26. Chaincrusher

    Chaincrusher BoltTalker

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    First, I want to keep things in perspective regarding this discussion. I stated that I believed that there was an argument to be made that the Patriots are as good or better than we are every position or position group (as the discussion has proceeded).

    That means that whether or not Te'o is better than the 4th/5th ILB for NE, the conclusion still holds that NE's ILB group is way better than ours because they have at least 3 ILBs that are better than anyone we have.

    It was/is my understanding that you are already in agreement that NE's front 7 is way better than ours. I thought you already acknowledged that. Is that correct?

    That said, a reserve on a superior team can have more talent than a starter. Weren't you the one that discussed NE's 2 LB alignment and how Mayo was not playing? You aren't disputing that Mayo is better than Te'o, are you? Isn't that because whether or not Mayo is playing or playing very much right now, you have seen him play before and can draw some conclusions regarding how good he is versus Te'o based upon what you have previously seen from him?

    Well, that's all I am doing regarding Bostic. Does it give a great gauge by which to judge "Bostic2015"? Maybe not, but when I have seen him play previously, he has played at a level that I would conclude is similar to Te'o's level. I do no think either player is great and I do think that if Te'o were on the Patriots, he would be similarly buried on their depth chart. If anything, I would actually give Bostic the slightest of an edge over Te'o based upon previous observations of him playing, but it is close.

    I think that kind of suggests just how much more talent NE has at ILB than we do. It isn't close.

    Regarding the Bears, Christian Jones was a guy on my radar in the 2014 draft. Talk about value for an UDFA. The guy was an idiot for failing a drug test at the Combine, but he passed the eye test on the field for sure. I still can't believe that nobody took a late round flier on that guy. If he beat out Bostic, that wouldn't surprise me all that much, but more so because I think highly of Jones than I do less of Bostic.

    McClellin is a good player with a nice size speed combination that built a reputation on being stout at the point of attack. So, I would probably take Jones and McClellin over either Te'o or Bostic also, especially McClellin.

    I think Vollmer is better than Dunlap. He was once named Second Team All-Pro. While I do not think that is where is at this point, I do see him as being somewhat above average as an OT while I see Dunlap as being dead middle average. I think some Chargers fans think Dunlap is above average based upon a comparison between the Dunlap and the rest of our OL.

    I am not saying that NE's reserve OL is tons better than ours, but our OL is pretty awful. Fluker may be the only legitimate run blocker we have and we are not exactly great in pass blocking either (bottom third). It doesn't take much to get to that level.

    As to the secondary, I completely agree with your takes regarding Verrett and Weddle versus Butler and McCourty. The only reason why I would NE an advantage is because of the level of suckage of Flowers and Wilson in particular. I haven't seen any of the NE secondary players suck like that.

    In any event, at the end of the day, you have several positions that are close, with some of those being positions in which NE has been decimated by injury and in which their starters are tons better than ours, and a handful of positions where NE is just way better than we are. That makes NE's talent much better overall.

    Again, I am not saying that Belichick is not a better coach than McCoy. I think he clearly is. That said, NE is a much, much more talented team than the Chargers.
     

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